Thunderbird Crash Scuttlebutt

Jay Honeck

Jay Honeck

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Jay Honeck
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This interesting information just arrived in my inbox. Anyone got confirmation?

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Subject: T-Birds Crash Fiasco

The muddy waters are getting deeper and more obscure.

Here's are the latest twists to the story:

- T-Bird performances are choreographed to the second

- Team took off on time, but was sent to a holding pattern as POTUS was running behind schedule

- POTUS then spoke for approximately 20 minutes longer than planned

- Team performed flyby

- Following performance, team was directed to hold again (POTUS security detail would not allow them to land due to POTUS movement at Colorado Springs airport...this is SOP)

- A Secret Service ground coordinator is usually is with ATC during events like this, and SS has the hammer on all movement within an "x" mile radius of POTUS

- #6 flamed out en route to the runway in defiance of POTUS security coordinator

- Remaining 4 jets declared emergency and landed after ignoring the SS who was directing them to continue to hold

- Another of the jets possibly flamed out on very short final or just after touchdown

- Rumor was that #1 was fired, but he either was not fired or was quickly reinstated

- Rumor was that the remainder of the show season was cancelled... either bad rumor or that guidance was rescinded

- #6 is cleared to fly as soon as he is mentally and physically ready to do so.

- #6 is back to flying status in record time...

- Lt Col Hammond is still Thunderbird #1 and giving interviews, and the remaining show season is set to resume

- Stand by for potentially one of the greatest Accident Investigation Board "whitewashes" in Air Force history, aka, they will find some way to explain the accident without blaming either the flight lead or #6 (because they are still flying shows) or the politicians involved (whose ignorance is beyond blame).
 
That's about the stupidest SS ground controller around, if that's true. Use some common sense.

They were going to try and delay me (MEDEVAC) when the POTUS flew into ATL earlier this year. Kept telling me to keep it coming but I wasn't approved into the TFR yet. Gave a vector then immediately get taken off the vector. To be honest, wasn't sure if I'd just ignore their restriction if it came down to it or not. Wait outside a TFR, patient dies and get sued, or ignore ATC and blast into the TFR and get a violation. I was thinking this must be amateur hour here. I've done everything right and they're trying to delay patient care so AF1 can land in sterilized airspace. Ended up landing on top of the hospital while watching AF1 on final to ATL.
 
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After the fiasco with SS agents and prostitutes scandal, who knows...
 
To cause the number one flight team ,to flame out after they did the fly over for the Potus ,is the height of arrogance .
 
By Odin, not letting the T-Birds land for security worries!?!? I'd trust them more than most of the damn SS personnel. You haven't heard about T-Birds descending into alcohol-fueled whore-ridden orgies! Actually, the SS is a textbook case of what happens when you give unelected bureaucrats complete authority and unlimited resources.
 
Surely someone has confirmation or refutation of this story?

It just seems beyond belief that the SS would order the T-Birds to remain aloft, in a hold, until they ran out of gas.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Surely someone has confirmation or refutation of this story?

It just seems beyond belief that the SS would order the T-Birds to remain aloft, in a hold, until they ran out of gas.
Click to expand...
It's more incredible that the T-birds would do it when many other airports were available in the area. The guys at FLY would have given them a warm reception. PUB has plenty of runway and is beyond the 10 mile ring...
 
Velocity173 said:
That's about the stupidest SS ground controller around, if that's true. Use some common sense.

They were going to try and delay me (MEDEVAC) when the POTUS flew into ATL earlier this year. Kept telling me to keep it coming but I wasn't approved into the TFR yet. Gave a vector then immediately get taken off the vector. To be honest, wasn't sure if I'd just ignore their restriction if it came down to it or not. Wait outside a TFR, patient dies and get sued, or ignore ATC and blast into the TFR and get a violation. I was thinking this must be amateur hour here. I've done everything right and they're trying to delay patient care so AF1 can land in sterilized airspace. Ended up landing on top of the hospital while watching AF1 on final to ATL.
Click to expand...
I've had a similar experience, or I should say experiences, and the patients had to wait, period.
 
Jay...a few weeks ago I had lunch with a number of friends, one of whom is a retired N star USAF pilot. As he put it, he's heard a number of very reputable reports from knowledgable folks still in the loop. He did confirm the 20 min delay, and that the guy who put it in the field declared no more fuel and deliberately went for an empty field and waited to punch out until the last possible to make sure civilian and other damage was minimal.
 
Be assured that USAF TPTB will have a chat with the head of the SS.
 
Cooter143 said:
I've had a similar experience, or I should say experiences, and the patients had to wait, period.
Click to expand...

Heard the same thing from other EMS pilots as well. I could understand a slight delay if we were landing at the same airport. In my case, I was landing 7 miles north of them in a TFR that I already coordinated with over the phone. Guess I should've just turned the transponder off and dropped down to NOE! :D

I actually met the controller a few days later and he said there was confusion between them and their SS rep in the radar room. I think some of these SS personel are either inexperienced or they've let the power of the position go to their head.
 
I don't understand, are they saying multiple planes flamed out due to fuel exhaustion?
 
They definitely didn't fire lead and they continued with their schedule, minus one aircraft.
 
Clark1961 said:
It's more incredible that the T-birds would do it when many other airports were available in the area.
Click to expand...
This. After the flyby, so their job was essentially done. Did any of the sniffers hear a joker, bingo, min fuel, or emergency call? True or not, there's enough cloak-and-dagger stuff in the op that will keep those with an agenda going for years.

Nauga,
and the sniff test
 
I've know a couple guys that worked with the secret service on presidential events. Both, independently, said they were the dumbest group they ever had to deal with, professional opinion. Glad the fbi is looking into it....too bad that means absolutely nothing any more.
 
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nauga said:
This. After the flyby, so their job was essentially done. Did any of the sniffers hear a joker, bingo, min fuel, or emergency call? True or not, there's enough cloak-and-dagger stuff in the op that will keep those with an agenda going for years.

Nauga,
and the sniff test
Click to expand...
According to my friend the retired general, joker fuel was announced by the pilot lng before he took it down to the empty field.
 
Per my prior EMS pals, I have never had to deal with a POTUS TFR, but others at a local AFB. When directed to steer clear or given a vector, my response has always been the same, "unable, critical patient on board, need to proceed direct to xyz hospital." I have usually been met by long silence, but never a contrary order. I think it had something to do with my end of career, I don't give a crap attitude.......not to mention patient care.
 
We were close friends with members of a president's family, so we had almost daily personal interaction with Secret Service agents. The vast majority were thoroughly professional. There were a few clinkers, though -- and sometimes those were the ones in charge. But that was back when SS was an arm of the Treasury Department. I wonder if the transfer to Homeland Security has had an effect on the quality of their training and work ...
 
The second you override my bingo, min fuel, and emergency fuel call, you own it baby. Get out of jail free card. That's why nothing is gonna happen to these T-chickens. I bet the tape is RIDDLED with bingo, min fuel and emergency fuel calls, all met with "stand by"s and "negative for _____" responses from ATC under the direction of the dopes with a badge. What a clownshow.

Thats why us peons scoff at the assignment. It's political kabuki. That ---- ain't worth my hard-earned wings and 3+ million dollars lifetime earnings as a pro pilot.
 
murphey said:
According to my friend the retired general, joker fuel was announced by the pilot lng before he took it down to the empty field.
Click to expand...
Interesting. Did the secret service refuse a divert? Will be interesting to see if anything besides rumor and innuendo come out of this. For this to happen as described would require numerous judgement errors besides an overzealous secret service.

Nauga,
off the ladder
 
Jay Honeck said:
This interesting information just arrived in my inbox. Anyone got confirmation?

*******************************************************

Subject: T-Birds Crash Fiasco

The muddy waters are getting deeper and more obscure.

Here's are the latest twists to the story:

- T-Bird performances are choreographed to the second

- Team took off on time, but was sent to a holding pattern as POTUS was running behind schedule

- POTUS then spoke for approximately 20 minutes longer than planned

- Team performed flyby

- Following performance, team was directed to hold again (POTUS security detail would not allow them to land due to POTUS movement at Colorado Springs airport...this is SOP)

- A Secret Service ground coordinator is usually is with ATC during events like this, and SS has the hammer on all movement within an "x" mile radius of POTUS

- #6 flamed out en route to the runway in defiance of POTUS security coordinator

- Remaining 4 jets declared emergency and landed after ignoring the SS who was directing them to continue to hold

- Another of the jets possibly flamed out on very short final or just after touchdown

- Rumor was that #1 was fired, but he either was not fired or was quickly reinstated

- Rumor was that the remainder of the show season was cancelled... either bad rumor or that guidance was rescinded

- #6 is cleared to fly as soon as he is mentally and physically ready to do so.

- #6 is back to flying status in record time...

- Lt Col Hammond is still Thunderbird #1 and giving interviews, and the remaining show season is set to resume

- Stand by for potentially one of the greatest Accident Investigation Board "whitewashes" in Air Force history, aka, they will find some way to explain the accident without blaming either the flight lead or #6 (because they are still flying shows) or the politicians involved (whose ignorance is beyond blame).
Click to expand...
Doesn't quite sound right.

I've heard a very different rumor that involves the location of the fuel cutoff on the throttle.
 
Seems as if they were told to hold for 20 minutes and they didn't have the fuel, they would have gone somewhere else. Plenty of choices in the area.
 
"There are some events that are just to out of the ordinary for the public to handle and they just can never make the news" William Colby ex CIA director.

Truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to be believable...
 
Van Johnston said:
And the LiveATC recordings for COS for that date are mysteriously missing.......
Click to expand...

Military talks on Uniform as a custom, not Victor. We can, but generally don't. This leaves the victor radio for intraflight frequency. This is especially so for the fighter/bomber types. Heavies and tankers are often found talking on victor however. LiveATC doesn't tape UHF from my understanding.
 
Understand, but ATC typically broadcasts on both. Would expect to find the ATC side of the conversation on LiveATC if I was trying to corroborate this story.
 
coloradobluesky said:
"There are some events that are just to out of the ordinary for the public to handle and they just can never make the news" William Colby ex CIA director.

Truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to be believable...
Click to expand...
I always believed MULDER was right. Sully should have been listening more closely. The truth is; a better team is created when they have the difference of opinion.
I can believe a gov't conspiracy faster then a bunch of the MOST SKILLED AF pilots f'd up.
 
Van Johnston said:
Would expect to find the ATC side of the conversation on LiveATC if I was trying to corroborate this story.
Click to expand...
On the archive page LiveATC says they keep archives for 30 days. Wasn't the crash on 2 June? Today is 9 July. Archives for my home field and the two or three others I checked for the same day and time frame were 'missing' too. What sinister activities do you think they're covering up there?

Nauga,
and his expiration date
 
silver-eagle said:
I can believe a gov't conspiracy faster then a bunch of the MOST SKILLED AF pilots f'd up.
Click to expand...
I'll bet he at least had the correct altimeter setting when he jumped out.;)

What do you think they were covering up when they lost a perfectly good jet at Mountain Home in '03?

Nauga,
and a dose of confirmation bias
 
Van Johnston said:
Understand, but ATC typically broadcasts on both. Would expect to find the ATC side of the conversation on LiveATC if I was trying to corroborate this story.
Click to expand...
They don't typically broadcast on both at COS.

I had a C-130 "sneak" up on me once. I called approach about it and then a bit later I saw the -130 lift a wing, ATC then told me the -130 had me in sight. I never heard a word from ATC talking to the -130. The -130 was dropping meat bombs on the academy.
 
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hindsight2020 said:
Military talks on Uniform as a custom, not Victor. We can, but generally don't. This leaves the victor radio for intraflight frequency. This is especially so for the fighter/bomber types. Heavies and tankers are often found talking on victor however. LiveATC doesn't tape UHF from my understanding.
Click to expand...
That is correct. LiveATC only records the VHF, so at best you might hear ATC talking to them (if ATC is broadcasting simultaneously on both freqs).
 
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