This note is legal tender...

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by timwinters, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. timwinters

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    ...for all debts. Public and private.

    That phrase is on all of our paper currency. I also *thought* it was the law that businesses have to accept it...

    ...so why does Philadelphia have to pass a law outlawing "cashless stores"?

    I also thought the sign that many convenience store have posted over the years stating; "$100 bills not accepted" was also tachnically illegal...but maybe not.

    Okay, legal beagles, what say you?
     
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  2. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Just to make this vaguely aviation related, Food/Beverage on flights are card only. They advertise a "Cashless Cabin"
     
  3. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    Buying something in a store isn't a debt when you haven't bought it yet.
     
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  4. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/currency/pages/legal-tender.aspx

    >>>
    The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

    This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.
    <<<
     
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  5. cowman

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    This might be relevant
     
  6. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    That's an interesting explanation. I like it.
    When you make a purchase, it is basically a trade agreement. I agree to give you a certain type of compensation for this product or service. I don't agree to cash.
     
  7. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Indeed, that pretty much says what Matthew said. I wonder why the bill says "public and PRIVATE" then?
     
  8. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I suppose a private debt - if you were to take it to a court - for something like, "The guy borrowed my rake and didn't give it back," could be solved with a $20 bill.
     
  9. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Actually, I thought it was dumb. You walk up to the counter, they ring it up, you have completed a transaction (in layman's terms).
     
  10. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Just a swag here, but perhaps it intends to mean "legal" as opposed to "mandatory". Any business MAY accept it. They don't have to accept it.
     
  11. cgrab

    cgrab Pattern Altitude

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    What does Br_an take for his services?
     
  12. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Warm hugs?
     
  13. JOhnH

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    Other "services" is suspect.
     
  14. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    And you think the Treasury saying the same thing is also dumb? At what point did you go into debt with the store as the creditor?
     
  15. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The second they rang it up?

    Or the second it started sipping on that cup of coffee as I walked towards the front?
     
  16. falconkidding

    falconkidding Line Up and Wait

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    Stores can choose not to take cash nothing federally against it. Cash is expensive depending on business i would consider not taking cash.
     
  17. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    Then you ask what the interest rate is and if it's reasonable you walk away with the merchandise and ask them to send you a bill?
     
  18. EdFred

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    What if it is a restaurant and you've eaten your food and then they bring the bill are you not in debt at that point?
     
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  19. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Just drop a deuce on the table for payment.
     
  20. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Now that I read this again, I'm not sure I agree that "This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor."

    It says "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts."

    Like Ed's example of a restaurant...or me drinking my coffee while walking to the counter...We're not indebted to someone?

    I'm not a lawyer...so I can only say WTF? ;-)
     
  21. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    When I was a teenager, we would take our old, wrinkly 1 dollar bills and spray them with spray starch, I mean soak them down with the starch, then iron the bills flat. They would look like old, wrinkly dollar bills yet feel like brand new ones. Occasionally, someone would refuse them. Usually it would be an old person, someone that lived through the depression. They would feel the bills, then say, "I don't know boys, something just doesn't feel right...''
     
  22. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think lawyers read your posts and say WTF, too.
     
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  23. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    Open the soda, take a swig, bite into the hot dog and then ask them if they still won't take the cash......
     
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  24. Bill Jennings

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    Stores that don’t take cash cut out the taxman. Thats all this law is about, making sure Philly gets their cut.
     
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  25. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

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    I thought it would be the other way. If I pay in cash, the tax man really doesn't know what I actually gave. The vendor could, in theory, claim I was given a discount and skim off the top. Electronic payments are all traceable and it is easier to prove under-reporting of sales.
     
  26. LoneAspen

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    I rarely carry cash, and have preferred to use credit cards for years. And although I usually pay my cards in full each month, even if I didn't, or there were other fees with having the card, I still prefer cards. Back in the days when cash was more prevalent, I absolutely hated having to hunt down an ATM, and make sure I always had cash on me.

    I really couldn't care less if cash disappeared. Other than the nostalgia factor, i really have no use for it.
     
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  27. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Their business their rules.

    Don’t like it don’t shop there, enough people agree they will change or go out of business. :dunno:
     
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  28. Clip4

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    There are laws which prohibit businesses from discrimination, but I have never seen any that prohibit discriminating against people who carry larger denomination currency or a law that says a business must be able to make change.
     
  29. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    7% of people in this country are unbanked.
     
  30. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Seems counterintuitive to me. Refusing to accept cash means every transaction will be via debit or credit, thus increasing the merchants transaction costs...no?
     
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  31. EdFred

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    Yeah, but then they don't have to train the idiots that can't figure out when the total comes to $5.77 and you give them $6.02 you want a quarter back. They can just tell you to swipe and shut their brain off.
     
  32. AKiss20

    AKiss20 Pre-Flight

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    Creating an easily traceable paper trail of a transaction cuts out the taxman how exactly? Either way the business is required to file and pay their taxes based on earned income, having a paper trail just makes it way easier for the authorities to audit and find discrepancies.
     
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  33. Bill Jennings

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    Depends on how you define a cashless store. If I come in to your store and buy a couple of beers and pay you with a loaf of bread I baked, then the tax man is cut out of the loop.
     
  34. Matthew

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    I was thinking the same thing. Are they trying to outlaw the barter system? Or is this going to be an unintended consequence?
     
  35. John221us

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    I would say the main reason a business doesn't want to deal with cash is employee theft. The next reason is becoming a target for robberies. I don't think it has anything to do with avoiding taxes. My fiance has a retail business and she does not like dealing with cash deposits and the risk of carrying the money out late at night.
     
  36. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Cashless is easy: no deposits to worry about, no trying to reconcile the register to the receipts every night, no tip jar to have to deal with, ...

    At my local breakfast shop, they don't like cashless transactions because there's an extra fee every time someone uses a card so they have a $5 minimum on card transactions. There are lots of folks, mostly younger, that don't carry cash at all and rely on that card for everything. Once in a while someone storms out because they don't have cash and don't want to add a cup of coffee to get above the $5 limit. Most of the time the owner will say, "OK, just this once, but next time...", but even then I've watched people say, "No, there won't BE a next time!".
     
  37. bradg33

    bradg33 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Many folks seem to believe that accepting cash or checks is "free." Sure, it may not be an obvious line-item like a merchant fee on a CC transaction, but cash and checks have their own costs. Costs to make deposits, employee theft, bounced checks, counterfeit bills, time to count and reconcile, mishandled cash (too much change given), and so on. At least merchant charges are predictable.
     
  38. Zeldman

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    Or back before ATMs when a person actually had to go to the bank and make a withdrawal to get cash....that usually involved a special trip to town just to go to the bank.
     
  39. Matthew

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    Or go to a grocery store and write a check for cash. That got me through college.
     
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  40. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Did you use counter checks.?? I remember as a kid the local grocery store had checks with the bank name printed on it, but without account numbers. They just went by the name of the writer. College students would put their parents name on the check but before they were allowed to do that the owner of the grocery store had to have verbal approval from the parents.

    Growing up in a small town was great.!!