This magenta line business...

[poadeleted20]

He set his GPS to a destination. The inspector said good.

IF that's all he did, then the examiner wasn't doing his/her job properly. The task requires:

1. Exhibits satisfactory knowledge of the elements related to​

navigation systems and radar services.​

2. Demonstrates the ability to use an airborne electronic​

navigation system.​

3. Locates the airplane’s position using the navigation system.​

4. Intercepts and tracks a given course, radial, or bearing, as​

appropriate.​

5. Recognizes and describes the indication of station​

passage, if appropriate.​

6. Recognizes signal loss and takes appropriate action.

...and based on your description, your pal did not do items 4-6.

Nothing mentioned about VOR.

Right -- it doesn't have to be VOR.

I would hope you would agree that the CFI should have known what the requirements are for a check ride.

I do indeed. A CFI who insisted that only an installed a VOR would suffice for a PP-Airplane practical test doesn't know the relevant rules.

I called the inspector and the local FSDO to verify a VOR was NOT needed as part of a PPL. I don't recall telling them the plane had a GPS, but it does have a built in panel mounted Garmin 496 GPS.

...which would certainly suffice to perform that task in the PP-A PTS.

 

[poadeleted20]

My examiner made me use everything I had installed. GPS, VOR, and ADF along with some very basic pilotage.

For a PP-A practical test, that's overkill -- demonstration of the use of one electronic nav system is enough to satisfy the FAA. That said, if you have all three installed, you'd best know how to use all three because the examiner is free to select any system you have available.

 

[poadeleted20]

Is it still possible to pass a checkride in a J3 without an electrical system?

Sure -- if you have handheld devices which include VHF comm and some sort of electronic nav like VOR or GPS. But as I said, some examiners don't seem to realize that as opposed to an IR practical test, a handheld is good enough for a PP practical test, so coordinate ahead of time in case FSDO intervention is required --- you don't want to be trying to do that in the middle of the test, especially if it's outside normal M-F business hours when no Inspectors are available.

BTW, you'll also need some sort of gyro instrument for Task IX Basic Instrument Maneuvers. With no electrical system, that would usually be a venturi-driven T&B instrument, although I suppose you could use a Dynon D1 velcro'd to the panel (but again, you might want to discuss that one with the examiner in advance).

 

[NoHeat]

I would say that for navigation, a "child of the magenta line" can push Direct-To Enter Enter, and nothing more.

If you can do anything more, pat yourself on the back, you are not a child of the magenta line.

 

[docmirror]

I use mine, although technically my line is dark gray.

My opinion of it is that it's a disparaging term for a pilot who isn't capable or proficient on any other method of navigation. In essence, they push Direct: Kxxx: enter, enter and stare at the screen most of the flight until they get close.

 

[willywildes]

It's the same old farts that make these arguments. Anti-technology. The Buggywhip horse lovers, looked down on the people driving cars. The old cars are better than new cars guy. Old ham radio operators look down their nose at The guys that can't do Morse code.(Fought for years to keep them out )And the NDB,VOR, Pilotage guys think there some How better aviators than the GPS only guys. All a bunch of Di(!( measuring jerks in my book. All three are dying hobbies. Technology might be the only thing that can save them. Be inclusive not exclusive...

 

[Geico266]

and back in the day the discussion was about flying "the vor line or the adf line".technology is a tool and when appropiately employed makes a flight less risky.

Exceptionally excellent point!

Keep moving forward.

 

[poadeleted20]

It's the same old farts that make these arguments. Anti-technology. The Buggywhip horse lovers, looked down on the people driving cars. The old cars are better than new cars guy. Old ham radio operators look down their nose at The guys that can't do Morse code.(Fought for years to keep them out )And the NDB,VOR, Pilotage guys think there some How better aviators than the GPS only guys. All a bunch of Di(!( measuring jerks in my book. All three are dying hobbies. Technology might be the only thing that can save them. Be inclusive not exclusive...

Actually, it's those "children of the magenta line" who need that technology to save them -- I can do fine without it, and that's the point which those who cannot function without the technology are missing. Having had all sorts of system failures in my 10,000 hours and 45 years of flying, I am very aware of the fact that being completely reliant on any one thing is very risky unless that one thing is incredibly reliable -- and after 20 years of flying with them, I'd say GPS navigation systems aren't yet "incredibly reliable" as I use that term in this context.

 

[Geico266]

I would say that for navigation, a "child of the magenta line" can push Direct-To Enter Enter, and nothing more.

If you can do anything more, pat yourself on the back, you are not a child of the magenta line.

And I would agree with you 100%.

The time for criticizing each other over is over. There are enough forces tearing GA down. We don't need to tear each other down.

 

[MikeELP]

Damn Apple autocorrect.

Another example of our over-reliance on technology!!

Mike

 

[MikeELP]

http://vimeo.com/64502012

Hard to believe that video is from 1997. Still as relevant today as it was 17 years ago.

Mike

 

[jspilot]

I can fly by looking outside the window( I was taught how to during training and am glad I was.). I still use an iPad with foreflight each trip. Honestly it's just easier. Around where I am, on Long Island, pilotage is easy with the coast lines and such, it's honestly hard to get lost.

I'm curious though what people think of this, the op asks what a " magenta line" pilot is or something of the like. So I'm curious to read responses about this, would we all consider airline pilots magenta line pilots? I understand pilotage is not totally doable from 36,000 feet but they are the ultimate in " set up a computer and watch it find the airport for you. I'd imagine that if the on board computer failed they would certainly be at a complete loss and would need to take action quick. If the navigation system was inop they would ground the flight. To me, that's the ultimate in " magenta line pilot."

 

[ClimbnSink]

And I would agree with you 100%.

The time for criticizing each other over it is over. There are enough forces tearing GA down. We don't need to tear each other down.

There you have it Jay & RT! The real reason POA is here. Not to debate race and politics.

More criticism. Peer pressure to be safe and competent. If we don't do it who will?
However I will make a deal, I'll stop criticizing the gizmotron TV pilots if everyone else stops criticizing no medical, low flying pilots. Pilots like me.
Do we call out stupid or quietly accept our appalling safety record?

 

[Geico266]

Another example of our over-reliance on technology!!

Mike

Well a sectional would not have autocorrect!

 

[RotorAndWing]

So I'm curious to read responses about this, would we all consider airline pilots magenta line pilots? I understand pilotage is not totally doable from 36,000 feet but they are the ultimate in " set up a computer and watch it find the airport for you. I'd imagine that if the on board computer failed they would certainly be at a complete loss and would need to take action quick.

So what "on board computer" failure would put an airline pilot at a complete loss in navigation?

If the navigation system was inop they would ground the flight. To me, that's the ultimate in " magenta line pilot."

Uh, well, yes. Since these planes are flown almost exclusively IFR the lack of navigation would render the aircraft inop.

 

[kayoh190]

So I'm curious to read responses about this, would we all consider airline pilots magenta line pilots? I understand pilotage is not totally doable from 36,000 feet but they are the ultimate in " set up a computer and watch it find the airport for you. I'd imagine that if the on board computer failed they would certainly be at a complete loss and would need to take action quick. If the navigation system was inop they would ground the flight. To me, that's the ultimate in " magenta line pilot."

Absolutely I'm a magenta line pilot. But you're wrong about what happens when our long range nav fails. We just change up our route and continue along happily flying VOR to VOR. Of course we can't do pilotage while IFR, but VOR to VOR isn't a problem. And it's not a problem because while we fly magenta needles 99% of the time, we're expected to be able to downshift to the basics if need be.

I guess I don't understand what the argument is about. Of course you should use the best equipment available. Nobody is complaining about the use of magenta lines, GPS, or whatever other magic is available. We're just saying when the magic sh*ts the bed, strong fundamentals are a huge help.

 

[peerlesscowboy]

To me the definition of "children of the magenta line" would be pilots who require a moving map to maintain position awareness.

 

[Shepherd]

The "magenta line" is just a symptom of the real problem, and the real problem isn't how navigation is taught. The real problem is that the flying world has changed.
When I started flying out of the Peekskill Seaplane Base in the early 1960s the only maps I had were road maps that I got for free from the gas stations. I could fly anywhere I wanted to go with those maps. I could fly down the Hudson to New York, make a right turn and fly all the way to Florida without using a map. Just follow the coast. Anywhere I wanted to go I could follow a road, a river, a line of mountains, the railroad tracks. Then you pulled out a road map to zero in on your destination.
I remember flying over Washington DC so low I could wave to people outside the White House. You can't do that anymore. It's not allowed, it's not legal. Maybe it was never legal, but it used to be that no one cared. When I got out of the Air Force in 1973, you really did need sectionals. There were a lot of new rules, new air spaces, new radio requirements. But you could still go most places without a hassle. Now there are so many rules, covering every aspect of flying, that you can't even put all the info on a sectional anymore. You need a library full of books to plan a flight, and you need to reduce the library to a thick stack of paper to carry with you to keep track of things. And even that is not enough.
If I'm out boring holes in the sky, I still follow roads and rivers and railroads. If I have to fly from someplace to some other place, especially here in the North East, I make darn sure I have a "magenta line" in the cockpit. There are too many people, in jobs they can't be fired from, who have nothing better to do than make a pilot's life a living hell if you move two feet to the left or right or two feet up and down from where some bureaucrat deems it appropriate for you to be.
Don't be jumping on someone who uses the technology. We are all responsible for the mess that aviation is in, and things are just going to continue to get worse.

 

[ARFlyer]

I let my students use all the resources they have available to them, after they learn each device separately.

If my student wants to use the GPS overlay on his 20th VOR approach, then by all means go ahead. However, the second the student becomes fixated on the GPS over flying the plane, the circuit breaker gets pulled.

I use to play a game on long cross countries that involved trying to keep the GPS cross track error at 0.00NM. I bet most of you just crapped your pants!

 

[airguy]

As others have said it is not the use of GPS it is the inability to fly without it.

This.

It's fine to use "The Easy Button" when you have it, I do it too. But what happens when you're midroute in questionable weather and the electrons quit flowing and the smoke comes out?

I've had it happen to me a couple times, once in real no-BS bad weather, and consider it an inconvenience rather than a 7500 squawk. Most pilots of the younger generation cannot say the same.

I have a partner in a very well-paneled 172, he uses it for business travel often and uses the Easy Button almost exclusively. I drove him absolutely bonkers last month when I reached up and turned off the KMD550 and KLN94 climbing through 2000' AGL on a 380nm trip and reached for the sectional. He was right seat PNF and still couldn't stand it...

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Very simple.... If the magenta line goes away or misbehaves and the pilot is lost and can not figure out how to fly with out it then they are guilty.

I generally use the highest level of automation and nav available to enhance safety. Sometimes i don't just to maintain the base skill set when all the fancy stuff stops working. So when my magenta line becomes transparent I shift gears and keep on rolling.

 

[trepine]

How exactly does the magenta line keep you from running out of fuel or flying into crappy weather?

It doesn't, but what does primary navigation have to do with either of these?

Also if I did run out of fuel, I would rather have a nearest button and know I'm exactly x.x kts from an airport or start looking to put it down off field. Fumbling through charts and trying to figure out distance to a possible airfield would be far less likely to yeild a possitive outcome.

As far as weather, if I did happen to fly into inadvertant weather, it will help me get on the ground ASAP at the nearest airport and avoid terrain in my way....Also, the build in XM and/or ADS-B helps me keep an eye on developing weather as I'm flying.

It amazes me how in every endeavor I have done in my life, there are always the old school folks that criticize advancements in technology, as if the world should hold still because they are the ones that are stuck and can't/won't evolve. When kids now days grow up, touch interfaces or maybe something even more personal will be completely natural to them. If you told them they all should use a keyboard and mouse because it won't get the screen greasy they will just look at you dumbfounded.

 

[trepine]

Very simple.... If the magenta line goes away or misbehaves and the pilot is lost and can not figure out how to fly with out it then they are guilty.

If all maps, charts, and navigation equipment where truely lost, I'm sure the majority of us could find an airport to land at simply by flying around and going to areas where there is population. This is the last ditch failure mode we all have if everything fails. As long as I have power and gas, I have time to figure something out. It's not like the airplane falls from the sky if the magenta line goes away. If I can't find an airport and I was truely desperate, I would put it down off field, at a carefully planned and surveyed site...again I've got time and fuel.

It's not that I CAN't fly without the electronics, it's that I CHOOSE not to. If I lost my electronic equipment G1000 (both GPS and VOR), and both the ipads I carry, then I would call it a day and put it down at the nearest airport I found. Everyone has their personal "required" equipment, this just happens to be what is on my list.

 

[Jim Logajan]

The NTSB, the FAA, and the Nall Report have identified what approximate percentage of general aviation accidents or incidents each year in VFR flight are caused by pilot navigation error resulting from a failure of electronic navigation aids? (Feel free to address charter and airline operations if these statistics are known.)

Is there a problem, and if there is, what is its scope so that the amount of our finite time and money resources should be dedicated toward it relative to other known safety problems?

 

[willywildes]

Well Jim you have got to the nut of it. Is this a problem? I don't think it is. Just a bunch of high time type A+'s blowing wind. Getting their post count up. Let's fly, VOR,NDB,GPS bring what you got. bi-plane, Plastic plane, clown plane. Let's laugh, eat, drink, I read a lot of The Aviation books by awesome pilots. A lot killed in plane crashes. And they wrote the book.

 

[jspilot]

So what "on board computer" failure would put an airline pilot at a complete loss in navigation?



Uh, well, yes. Since these planes are flown almost exclusively IFR the lack of navigation would render the aircraft inop.

I'm not an airline pilot so I can't answer your, rather obviously meant to be insulting, rhetorical questions. Thanks though for the insightful response to a question only intended to move this discussion along a bit from the monotonous nature it has taken after reading about 7 pages( this thread and the other one) of people saying the same thing over and over again.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I'm not an airline pilot so I can't answer your, rather obviously meant to be insulting, rhetorical questions. Thanks though for the insightful response to a question only intended to move this discussion along a bit from the monotonous nature it has taken after reading about 7 pages( this thread and the other one) of people saying the same thing over and over again.

No, just seeking clarification on your comments, which in themselves were obviously meant to be insulting to airline pilots.

 

[Palmpilot]

Damn Apple autocorrect.

People complain about autocorrect so much, I find myself wondering why they don't just turn it off.

 

[midlifeflyer]

People complain about autocorrect so much, I find myself wondering why they don't just turn it off.

Can't speak for others but it's useful most of the time; when it doesn't work well it really tosses in some whoppers, but the annoyance isn't enough for me to turn it off altogether. Besides, it's fun to complain

 

[Silvaire]

If all maps, charts, and navigation equipment where truely lost, I'm sure the majority of us could find an airport to land at simply by flying around and going to areas where there is population...

Happened in the summer of 1969 while on a solo x-country over northern Indiana when the sectional chart got sucked out the open door of the J3 Cub. Fortunately back then every town in the area had a big water tower with it's name painted on it which made it possible to complete the flight.

 

[Palmpilot]

... Besides, it's fun to complain

I can relate to that!

 

[steingar]

Back in the good old days lots of guys got lost, some of them died. I'll take the magenta, thank you.

 

[Palmpilot]

Last Sunday, when my handheld started telling me it didn't know where I was anymore, I was surprised at how uneasy I felt, and realized that I need to make sure that my non-GPS skills don't atrophy. At the time, I was approaching SF Bay, where I am based, and while I am quite familiar with the airspace around here, in short order, I had two VORs and the DME from a third tuned in, and the terminal area chart open for confirmation that I wasn't busting any airspace.

So I guess I'm not a child of the magenta line yet, but I feel that I could easily become one.

 

[cowman]

I think the point that's been well covered here is that any system can fail and it's good to have alternative methods of navigation to complete a flight.

I will say though that if the Garmin 430 in my panel fails, as I think about it, I have a lot more faith in my iPad at that point than the 30+ year old KX170B nav/com unit in my panel.

I also will say, that while it's an important skill to have, I have a lot more confidence in a Garmin 430 or an iPad successfully being used to get from point A to point B than an average pilot using pilotage. Didn't you old farts used to get lost all the time? There sure are a lot of old "war stories" out there from old pilots revolving around that premise.

I would submit that whatever has been lost in skill with old school pilotage is outweighed by what has been gained in accuracy and reliability. This is not any kind of decline or festering tumor on aviation, it's just the next stage of evolution.

 

[poadeleted20]

Well Jim you have got to the nut of it. Is this a problem? I don't think it is.

Given the number of airspace busts around here by pilots with a GPS nav system when a simple look at the chart would have shown them they weren't where they thought they were (and I'm talking about obvious things like "are you east or west of the shoreline?"), I think it is a problem.

 

[Matthew]

It's already been mentioned (regarding VFR): with the complexity of some airspaces now, and the penalties for mistakes, that magenta line gets more important every day.

Flying from water tower to highway intersection to railroad bridge to wherever is still possible in a lot of places, and it's still a valuable skill and a lot of fun. I wonder if that's going to become a lost art?

 

[midlifeflyer]

So I guess I'm not a child of the magenta line yet, but I feel that I could easily become one.

Maybe. Maybe not.

To me, being a "child of the magenta" is not about using the technology. It's not even about being willing to do some things you might not do without it. After all, the old radio range system and early IFR instrumentation allowed pilots to fly in conditions they would not fly in otherwise.

Being a "child of the magenta" is about abdication. It's about a level of reliance on technology that leads to an absence of reasoned decision-making. GPS, moving maps and ADS-B give us information and options we didn't have before. That's great! The problem is when we don't use the information and options as pilots but instead become passengers.

 

[Johann]

I've had it happen to me a couple times, once in real no-BS bad weather, and consider it an inconvenience rather than a 7500 squawk. Most pilots of the younger generation cannot say the same.

So you are saying that the younger generation will feel the plane is being hijacked if the GPS dies?!

(Sorry, I had to)

 

[docmirror]

Being a "child of the magenta" is about abdication. It's about a level of reliance on technology that leads to an absence of reasoned decision-making. GPS, moving maps and ADS-B give us information and options we didn't have before. That's great! The problem is when we don't use the information and options as pilots but instead become passengers.

I like this. It's not about the tools the pilot uses, it's what he does with those tools that make good or bad pilots. It's also kind of what the FAA does with the flight review. Things that help make good decisions are beneficial. Using those tools the right way(in this case the magenta line), is what reduces GA accidents.

There are two 'flip side' issues if I may bring them up. First, info overload. We all know the notam system is completely broken and out of control. Of course, the FAA doesn't think so, but they are the only one. Sorting all the valid golden nugget info from the iron pyrite is increasingly complex, and that's true of the info in the cockpit as well.

The second is allowing the info to be used for executing something that might not be done without the added info. I guess one could say that in some cases, it might encourage risk taking by having a 'way out' that wasn't known before. Example would be looking at real time, but actually delayed weather to sneak between storm cells. The view out the window may look very discouraging, but if the TV in the cockpit shows a gap, maybe a pilot will misuse that info to make a decision in a case where without the current weather they would certainly deviate.

<edited to help avoid problems from the grammar Nazis>

 

[oldShar]

I have generally done the "eyeball" method for areas that I have a high familiarity or (since I was brought up on them), VOR reference and cross-radial/reference otherwise, with "the magenta line" as a confirmation and backup. However, I also like crossing Phoenix and "threading the needle" between both the Class B and other Class D areas --- and "the magenta line" is immeasurably more accurate and stress relieving than depending on ded reckoning thru the area or depending on losing a checkpoint when distracted (otherwise, it's a sterile cockpit across the Valley if staying outside of Class B )