Thinking about giving up on aviation

Dav8or said:
Damn! That sectional looks like it was hit by a big shotgun in space loaded with airports!
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I looked at that picture and was astounded at the number of airports, both private and public.
 
Number of airports isn’t a problem, number of airports with hangar space is. 8a7 is the only one with hangar space because nobody wants to be there.
 
I was commenting on the number of airports in that one shot. Where I live there are 3 airports less than an hour drive from me and 2 are on the reservation. I can land there and park but not base a plane there.

There is a couple private landing strips within an hours drive of me, but they haven't been used for decades.

Wish I could help ya out on a hangar, but I live too far away.
 
The hangar situation in this hobby is more and more of a " its a big effing club ...and you ain't in it!" type of thing.
 
Grum.Man said:
Number of airports isn’t a problem, number of airports with hangar space is. 8a7 is the only one with hangar space because nobody wants to be there.
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So call every other airport, and put your name on every waiting list...
I did the same thing a few years ago. Each airport told me something like, "two year waiting list"...I had a hangar in a month.
 
hindsight2020 said:
The hangar situation in this hobby is more and more of a " its a big effing club ...and you ain't in it!" type of thing.
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That is an airport by airport assessment. The two different airports I've rented hangars at were easy to get hangars with no cliques, or attitude. I'm actually on my forth hangar. I keep moving just to improve my situation. Of course densely packed areas with lots of wealth around do make it more difficult and different regions of the country, like Florida, I don't know what the issue is there. I think there are a lot of airparks in Florida because that seems to be the only practical and affordable way to get a hangar there! (says me, not really knowing what I'm talking about all the way across the country) :D
 
tawood said:
So call every other airport, and put your name on every waiting list...
I did the same thing a few years ago. Each airport told me something like, "two year waiting list"...I had a hangar in a month.
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Do better than call. Get on those lists, but then go down to those airports and check the bulletin boards, poke your head in some hangars and talk to people there. Often times in the case of privately owned hangars, it's the only way to find out if there is something available. Often times you'll bump into someone who knows of something coming up that's not advertised yet, or of someone that could be convinced to share, or sub lease.
 
Grum.Man said:
I posted a rant a while back about the condition of my airport and particularly my hangar. The owner finally got around to look at my hangar and told me today it needed more work than he was willing to invest so I needed to move out. I could rent a smaller hangar for 100 more a month. When I complained about the price increase and general condition of the airport he told me to remove my airplane from the airport by the end of the month. I offered to fix the hangar at my expense and they said no thanks. Before you accuse me of being a jerk, just know that over the past 6 months they have run 20 tenants off the airport. We have gone from having a short waiting list to 31 open hangars.

I have called every airport within an hour drive and nobody has any hangar space. I refuse to let my airplane sit on a ramp rotting away. If I have to drive more than an hour I’ll never use it so what is the point? I’m to the point now that if nothing becomes available I am going to remove the wings and put in a storage unit and just walk away from aviation.

Lesson learned, a crappy hangar is better than no hangar so keep your mouths shut!
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If you don't fly that much, why not rent, if there's a convenient school nearby?
 
Grum.Man said:
I don’t really buy that. There are 77 hangars at the airport that were full for years. If you take the average rent price of 250 each that is 19,250 per month of income not counting fuel sales. They exchange hangar rental to a guy for simple maintenance stuff, and pay a kid to keep the grass mowed. Nothing of note has been done to the facilities in the 5 years I’ve been there. The airport has been there for 30+ years.
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I'm not going to defend the airport owner being a jerk. There are jerks everywhere and they can run anything into the ground.

I don't know the particulars of that airport. With your numbers, that works out to about $230,000 a year of revenue from the hangars, assuming everyone pays. I can tell you that is about 1/3 of our operating budget for our public airport, and does not include capital expenditures. Our operating budget is what it takes to keep the lights on, grass mowed, snow plowed, and repair facilities as they need. Fuel farm breaks down, thats $5-10k easily. Need a new roof for a bank of T-Hangars, $50,000. Mower breaks down, $1-2k repair bill easily. We spend $30,000 a year alone just in diesel fuel for our equipment to mow and plow snow.

Like I said though, not knowing the whole situation I am not trying to stand up for this particular owner. Maybe he inherited the old facility and is not motivated or capable of keeping it running.
 
Clip4 said:
I have used Signature and many other the "big" FBOs in SEL aircraft both for business and pleasure flights. They have all provided me first class service and were more than "just polite", but when roll up on ramp with a your ripping me off chip on your shoulder I can see where one might think that.
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I'll never deny Signatures are nice, but I avoid them like the plague. A $40 fee just to pull on their exclusive rights ramp, paid for with tax money nonetheless, and drop off a passenger without even shutting down. That is a bit much. I don't mind a minimum fuel purchase or reasonable ramp fee when actually using the facilities. But to me the signature model would be like the only off ramp on the interstate for 100 miles leading to only one gas station, and being forced to pay them for the luxury of driving past or being forced to buy $8 a gallon gas. Something just not right about it, and plenty of other FBOs that manage to do quite well with reasonable fee structures.
 
I've been on a hangar wait list for 8 months now, put myself on it 6 months from knowing my move date. Still crickets. Did get a hail shed immediately, but that was always a low bar given the condition of the access pavement (nature has re-taken the pavement, and that's being euphemistic) and the job that's doing to my prop. Most of my neighbors in the shed row are carcass planes, to include a derelict SR-20, and RV-8A in cosmetically ok shape. Both airplanes even I wouldn't dare keep in open storage, whereas I'm ok with letting my Arrow take it in the shorts comparatively. But somebody is paying rent on those orphan cases too, so who knows what's going on there.

Today I got a twofer as I arrived to go fly the plane. Getting gravel blasted by the EMS helo outfit next door and their douchebag pilot that cut right on top of the hail shed at low altitude, instead of being a considerate human being and approaching their shop over the taxiway. With a T-hangar it would have been a non-issue, even if he's still a roto-douchebag mind you. I figured they do that daily while I'm not there too, so my airplane has been getting it day and night probably. Not much choice in the matter, as a second-class tenant of the airport. I debated whether to do my run up tail end to their multi-mil helo sitting pretty in their pad after sand blasting me, but I did like that guy Jesús (the invisible guy that never talks back, not the dude that sells corn dogs out the trailer in his driveway at the end of my street :D), and just took the high road.

So little things like that, second tier effects of not having ready access to storage, definitively sour my interest in the non-flying aspects of the hobby. Certainly supports the anti-social nature to this so-called avocation.

At any rate, I think the wait list might be 25 deep, but it might as well be 500 deep; the level of shadow sub-letting to friends and family is what keeps things crony up in hur'. The line guy from the city confesses the place is prob 50% non-aviation storage. He's about the third business contact in 6 months that has expressed to me the politicky nature of this airport. Thumbing through threads on here from 8 years ago it apparently shows that is def the case. Such are the breaks for captive audiences.

So at least in Central TX, the wait lists being cemetery slow is indeed an accurate depiction for a non-connected participant. YMM-certainly-V.
 
@Grum.Man sorry man, that's a crappy situation. I'm way out in SD. Good luck! don't give up on aviation. It's too cool of a hobby to let slip away.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Today I got a twofer as I arrived to go fly the plane. Getting gravel blasted by the EMS helo outfit next door and their douchebag pilot that cut right on top of the hail shed at low altitude, instead of being a considerate human being and approaching their shop over the taxiway. With a T-hangar it would have been a non-issue, even if he's still a roto-douchebag mind you. I figured they do that daily while I'm not there too, so my airplane has been getting it day and night probably. Not much choice in the matter, as a second-class tenant of the airport. I debated whether to do my run up tail end to their multi-mil helo sitting pretty in their pad after sand blasting me, but I did like that guy Jesús (the invisible guy that never talks back, not the dude that sells corn dogs out the trailer in his driveway at the end of my street :D), and just took the high road.
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Did you talk to them?

There’s “taking the high road” and “letting someone do something relatively that damages other aircraft on the ramp without saying anything”.

Don’t have to be an ass about it, but I’d have walked over and asked them why they do it. Let them answer.
 
denverpilot said:
Did you talk to them?

There’s “taking the high road” and “letting someone do something relatively that damages other aircraft on the ramp without saying anything”.

Don’t have to be an ass about it, but I’d have walked over and asked them why they do it. Let them answer.
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Yeah, there was a non-verbal exchange. As I scurried behind my vehicle to avoid getting pelted further, I rose from behind my hood to their helo being unloaded and shut down. They saw me raise my arms in frustration. They knew what they did, and just continued about their business. The town is a bit rude, not what people think when they think Texan hospitality. I'm newish here, not quite sure why that is. I think it being the 2nd highest growth city in 2017 (ditto for the county) may have some to do with the surly disposition of the denizens, but I don't have enough resident longevity to make an assessment just yet.

What I do know is that they are commercial tenants of this airport, and their rent is of higher value than my piddly shed check and low-rung airplane. I may bring it to the attention of the airport management though. It will be a token gesture of course; they can afford to lose me, not the EMS fuel and building revenue.

I'm still on the lookout for a T-hangar, just not holding my breath. I fully admit if I had something swanky like an Ovation or Cirri et al, no way I could tolerate this relative slight in the hobby. But of course, if I had the means to bankroll the former, I wouldn't live here in the first place, as I would not need military employment or the like LOL. I completely empathize with the OP on this subject. I am there too.
 
denverpilot said:
I’ve never once complained about being ripped off anywhere but here and certainly not to them. Nobody anywhere near an airport would ever get the impression I had any “chip on my shoulder”. Far easier to just smile and then let everyone else know where to avoid.

I’ve also only complained about the companies that consistently HIDE their fees and jerk off airport management behind the scenes with kickbacks.k

And you know it.

But you’re an ass who constantly lies about what others say here.

Meanwhile back in reality, let’s hear what they did for you that was more than just polite. If you’re trying to argue the value of their hidden fees again, let’s hear something valuable and above and beyond that they did for your $40.

Your arguments don’t usually cover what you actually get for that $40, so go for it. So far, a back alley hooker has better marketing and more people know what they get for their dollars, than your arguments for these fancy FBOs have provided.
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“Just need a nice sweetheart deal with Signature to fix it. $40 toilet use fee.”

I must have misinterpreted this comment as a complaint. Where I ever got such a silly idea......
 
hindsight2020 said:
Today I got a twofer as I arrived to go fly the plane. Getting gravel blasted by the EMS helo outfit next door and their douchebag pilot that cut right on top of the hail shed at low altitude, instead of being a considerate human being and approaching their shop over the taxiway. With a T-hangar it would have been a non-issue, even if he's still a roto-douchebag mind you. I figured they do that daily while I'm not there too, so my airplane has been getting it day and night probably. Not much choice in the matter, as a second-class tenant of the airport. I debated whether to do my run up tail end to their multi-mil helo sitting pretty in their pad after sand blasting me, but I did like that guy Jesús (the invisible guy that never talks back, not the dude that sells corn dogs out the trailer in his driveway at the end of my street :D), and just took the high road.
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Just waving your arms at them, I am surprised they did not wave back... darn friendly people here, I tell yuh what..:lol::lol:

Just walk over sometime during business hours and mention to someone like a pilot or mechanic about what happens when the rotors fly over the airplane shed. Might be all it takes to make a change.

One airport I flew at the rotors made right traffic to get to the hospital, making a right turn across final. Just a quick conversation and that was changed. It also moved their flight path from over a tightly packed neighborhood to over open ground.

At the most you might ask for the Chief pilots name and number and just explain to him/her what happened.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Line guy from the city confesses the place is prob 50% non-aviation storage. He's about the third business contact in 6 months that has expressed to me the politicky nature of this airport.
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If that is truly the case, and not just conjecture, that might be worth bringing to the attention to the FAA. If the airport has received federal funds in the last twenty years, non aeronautical use of hangar space would violate their grant assurances.
 
midwestpa24 said:
If that is truly the case, and not just conjecture, that might be worth bringing to the attention to the FAA. If the airport has received federal funds in the last twenty years, non aeronautical use of hangar space would violate their grant assurances.
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Of course it's not conjecture. None of this is new, everybody knows that non-aviation storage is a real problem and it does go on in public owned airports where federal money is involved. But that's still a wish in one hand chit on the other kinda thing. The city is getting their money, and that's all that matters. Reminds me of the same issues I had with USERRA law when I entertained (for a nano-second) the idea of working a civilian job (non-airline, non-federal civil service, though it would have been state public sector) in conjunction with my military service as an aircrew AF Reservist. My takeaway from that life lesson was : "Why would I want to work for someone I had to sue in order to be/remain employed by them in the first place?". Pyrrhic victory. The same is true for going toe to toe with a city government that uses my own tax money to stonewall me in court about federal grant assurances. It's a messed up system, but that's the environment in which we find ourselves in.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Of course it's not conjecture. None of this is new, everybody knows that non-aviation storage is a real problem and it does go on in public owned airports where federal money is involved. But that's still a wish in one hand chit on the other kinda thing. The city is getting their money, and that's all that matters.

The same is true for going toe to toe with a city government that uses my own tax money to stonewall me in court about federal grant assurances. It's a messed up system, but that's the environment in which we find ourselves in.
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That's the point, it won't have to involve you personally at any point. Just a phone call to file a complaint with the FAA, or maybe even get the AOPA involved, then sit back and watch the fireworks fly. The FAA has no problem putting cities on notice and denying grants to those airport who fail to meet the grant assurances. There is plenty of competition for those funds and other airports asking for more.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Yeah, there was a non-verbal exchange. As I scurried behind my vehicle to avoid getting pelted further, I rose from behind my hood to their helo being unloaded and shut down. They saw me raise my arms in frustration. They knew what they did, and just continued about their business. The town is a bit rude, not what people think when they think Texan hospitality. I'm newish here, not quite sure why that is. I think it being the 2nd highest growth city in 2017 (ditto for the county) may have some to do with the surly disposition of the denizens, but I don't have enough resident longevity to make an assessment just yet.

What I do know is that they are commercial tenants of this airport, and their rent is of higher value than my piddly shed check and low-rung airplane. I may bring it to the attention of the airport management though. It will be a token gesture of course; they can afford to lose me, not the EMS fuel and building revenue.

I'm still on the lookout for a T-hangar, just not holding my breath. I fully admit if I had something swanky like an Ovation or Cirri et al, no way I could tolerate this relative slight in the hobby. But of course, if I had the means to bankroll the former, I wouldn't live here in the first place, as I would not need military employment or the like LOL. I completely empathize with the OP on this subject. I am there too.
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Oh. You're at BAZ. They had a bit of a reputation a few years back. May still be an old thread here about it.

I nearly got my clock cleaned there when there was an EAA fly-in going on. Nobody seemed to care about other traffic at the airport - even ATC turned me loose early with the words "good luck and be very careful". The display off of the 330 transponder had the display lit up with a dozen other aircraft, several not bothering with the radio.
 
Clip4 said:
Yep, context. This thread has zero do with Signature Flight Support, ramp fees or $40 toilet fees.

But if you have any information where Signature Flight Support caused an airport to close as you suggest here, please post that intel in a new thread.
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Oooh. You used the full business name. That tells us all something.

Does the PR department know how bad a job you’re doing here? They might want you to stop.
 
Dav8or said:
Do better than call. Get on those lists, but then go down to those airports and check the bulletin boards, poke your head in some hangars and talk to people there. Often times in the case of privately owned hangars, it's the only way to find out if there is something available. Often times you'll bump into someone who knows of something coming up that's not advertised yet, or of someone that could be convinced to share, or sub lease.
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Ran into someone in Juneau last week that was thinking about selling their plane and hangar. He agreed to rent me his hangar for 3 months and put his plane in my tie down. Talked to him Friday and moved in Saturday. My cost is $460/mo. I get to work on my plane and he gets a little extra cash to help him out..:)

Zeldman said:
Just walk over sometime during business hours and mention to someone like a pilot or mechanic about what happens when the rotors fly over the airplane shed. Might be all it takes to make a change.
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Agreed.
 
hindsight2020 said:
...

So at least in Central TX, the wait lists being cemetery slow is indeed an accurate depiction for a non-connected participant. YMM-certainly-V.
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Last time I was at 5C1, there was a hangar available on the back row and another one straight up for sale, with apartment/Office.

Don’t know squat about 1T8, but it may be closer to you and worth checking out.
 
TCABM said:
Last time I was at 5C1, there was a hangar available on the back row and another one straight up for sale, with apartment/Office.

Don’t know squat about 1T8, but it may be closer to you and worth checking out.
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Yeah, I'm not driving any further than I currently do. I chose NB precisely for the proximity to the airport and still retain a sensible commute to work plus all the options for the family that living in North San Antonio gridlock didn't really afford me. So we're good where I am. If I were to entertain such a thing, I'd just hangar in HYI before I drove all the way to 5C1. San antonio area is rough on the hangar availability. The Austin/Georgetown crowd has it even tougher imo, as popular and "gentrified" as that area has become.
 
Could you get a group of pilots to go in on a community hangar at a different field?
 
hindsight2020 said:
Yeah, I'm not driving any further than I currently do. I chose NB precisely for the proximity to the airport and still retain a sensible commute to work plus all the options for the family that living in North San Antonio gridlock didn't really afford me. So we're good where I am. If I were to entertain such a thing, I'd just hangar in HYI before I drove all the way to 5C1. San antonio area is rough on the hangar availability. The Austin/Georgetown crowd has it even tougher imo, as popular and "gentrified" as that area has become.
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No worries. Don’t know where your at specifically in central TX. With your background, I assumed Randolph, but that’s me just me. HYI is a good deal, but that’s a haul from I35/1604.

When we retired our of COS and moved here, we were pretty set on Stone Oak until our first day on 1604. Things have changed a lot since I was last here.

That drove us to the 5C1 area. When we’re done with this house (probably 15 years), we will head a little further north towards the highland lakes area, I think.

Can’t stand the big city.
 
TCABM said:
No worries. Don’t know where your at specifically in central TX. With your background, I assumed Randolph, but that’s me just me. HYI is a good deal, but that’s a haul from I35/1604.

When we retired our of COS and moved here, we were pretty set on Stone Oak until our first day on 1604. Things have changed a lot since I was last here.

That drove us to the 5C1 area. When we’re done with this house (probably 15 years), we will head a little further north towards the highland lakes area, I think.

Can’t stand the big city.
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I do work at RND. I just choose not to live by that traffic madness that is North/NE San Antonio. I take the back roads to work from NB, so the commute is only 30 minutes. If I lived further out into the hill country part of town, sure that would be 45 minutes easy. One thing is true, the area is only gonna get worse, for everybody up and down I-35. Perhaps another recession might slow things down, which we are overdue for one.
 
hindsight2020 said:
..One thing is true, the area is only gonna get worse, for everybody up and down I-35. Perhaps another recession might slow things down, which we are overdue for one.
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I grew up just outside Austin. The only fix is to take 281 and turn it into a full-blown interstate all the way to Marble Falls, widen 1604 to 8-lanes, and make 46 and 4-8 lane connector without stoplights.

Nobody has the will to do that though, and it would be the death of central TX as we know it today.
 
TCABM said:
I grew up just outside Austin. The only fix is to take 281 and turn it into a full-blown interstate all the way to Marble Falls, widen 1604 to 8-lanes, and make 46 and 4-8 lane connector without stoplights.

Nobody has the will to do that though, and it would be the death of central TX as we know it today.
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They might for toll money. Just look at the west side of Houston.
 
Dav8or said:
That is an airport by airport assessment. The two different airports I've rented hangars at were easy to get hangars with no cliques, or attitude. I'm actually on my forth hangar. I keep moving just to improve my situation. Of course densely packed areas with lots of wealth around do make it more difficult and different regions of the country, like Florida, I don't know what the issue is there. I think there are a lot of airparks in Florida because that seems to be the only practical and affordable way to get a hangar there! (says me, not really knowing what I'm talking about all the way across the country) :D
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I’m in Naples, Fl, hangars fairly easy to come by, especially when the damn people from Michigan go home in summer.
 
denverpilot said:
Oooh. You used the full business name. That tells us all something.

Does the PR department know how bad a job you’re doing here? They might want you to stop.
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Busted! Figures, the arrogance is thick.
 
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