Thinking about fixing my barn or building a hangar

[Ted]

Well, the 1000 ft runway would surely dissuade a fair number of people so I guess my thoughts would be moot at that point and if its gonna cost too much money to redo they yeah, tear it down and build a proper hangar. Get a cool photo of the outside of it and frame it to put up if you want, or try to salvage some of the wood to be used as part of the new hangar if you want, even if only for a decorative piece.

That we are planning to do, yes. We figure that barn demolition will involve reclaiming wood - both ourselves and selling it.

 

[Ted]

My wife and I have been talking about this over the past week or so. We've also talked to one steel builder (Worldwide Steel Buildings) to start getting some prices together. And we've spent some time thinking about what we want to do and what will serve us best, plus look the best.

Part of the charm of our property right now is that you come down the driveway, go past this rustic old Kansas barn and approach the house. If the barn is replaced with a giant steel building, that will ultimately make the property less attractive. Between the barn and the house, we also have an outbuilding that's ugly and encroaches upon the runway and we've been planning on doing something with.

Then there's thinking about what we really need for keeping the airplane. And reality for that, all we really care about is a covering. We're talking about a Cub we'll be flying on nice days. Having it in the same structure as the workshop/tractor storage may not be the best idea. But we do have a little nook next to the runway that's the perfect location for a Quonset that would fit a Cub. I normally think Quonset huts are not very attractive, but I think in this case it would look "right". The location would also be such that we look out the window and could see our hangar with our Cub while in the kitchen or eating dinner - what could be better?

So here's what we're now thinking:

1) Quonset hut for the Cub in the aforementioned nook
2) Remove the ugly outbuilding (currently around 33x33), build a 40x40 workshop there. Recess it back a bit further from the runway. That will become where I keep my stuff (Cobra, lift large enough to lift up the truck, tools). Make sure this building has a door large enough to fit a semi. I'm thinking a steel building for this but could be convinced on a hybrid pole barn hybrid with steel trusses to make for more overhead space and potentially an upstairs loft/mezzanine
3) Likely tear down the barn (although perhaps repair and then do some changes) and replace with a pole barn structure, likely a hybrid with steel trusses again so we have a hay loft area upstairs. This would become the primary tractor/equipment storage, leaving the shop as the shop more than storage. I could be convinced on not having a hay loft area. Laurie likes the idea of making some guest quarters in one of these buildings, but I think that probably would add a lot of cost for not much benefit because we'd then be looking at plumbing and septic to deal with, and I don't know how simple it would be to plumb something like that into our existing septic. Given the locations, my thought is it'd get expensive fast

In the end this changes things around a good bit from what we were initially thinking, and I also think will have some more tweaking to get it to be exactly what we want. But this also allows us to do things in some form of stages, and since we'd be talking about a significantly smaller concrete pad (40x40 instead of 50x60... nearly half the concrete) that cost savings would go towards what I think ultimately makes a better solution. The shop will be large enough to fit tractors inside if I have a need to work on them in the shop, but not tie up the higher dollar square footage and concrete with tractors that don't need it.

The one question I have in going with a 40x40 shop is that it wouldn't fit a bus/larger RV if one day we decide to buy one of those. I could go larger (40x50 would fit any bus/RV I could find) but I think that might be pushing the structure bigger than I want in that location.

In looking at this, I think the quonset is probably the most straightforward and the first structure we should add. For one it's the easiest to put up (and one I think we could pretty easily install ourselves) and gives us an area we can use for the tractors. Which structures we do next would then depend on other factors.

Something that surprises me is how hard it seems to be to find a local quonset hut manufacturer. You'd think in Kansas that'd be easier to do. So if anyone has any recommendations, let me know.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

I've got a 48x60 pole barn on my property, built 20 years ago by the original owners. I really wish they would have built a smaller barn and spent the rest of the money to grade the land to make it more level. As the barn is now, I need tons of fill dirt around it, as they built it on a bit of a hill. All 3 of the side doors have significant erosion out of them (I'm talking 2-3 feet lower no more than 6 feet outside the door).

So, I'd say do it right the first time, but having the D6 should make this easy for you all.

 

[MIFlyer]

My wife and I have been talking about this over the past week or so. We've also talked to one steel builder (Worldwide Steel Buildings) to start getting some prices together. And we've spent some time thinking about what we want to do and what will serve us best, plus look the best.

Part of the charm of our property right now is that you come down the driveway, go past this rustic old Kansas barn and approach the house. If the barn is replaced with a giant steel building, that will ultimately make the property less attractive. Between the barn and the house, we also have an outbuilding that's ugly and encroaches upon the runway and we've been planning on doing something with.

Then there's thinking about what we really need for keeping the airplane. And reality for that, all we really care about is a covering. We're talking about a Cub we'll be flying on nice days. Having it in the same structure as the workshop/tractor storage may not be the best idea. But we do have a little nook next to the runway that's the perfect location for a Quonset that would fit a Cub. I normally think Quonset huts are not very attractive, but I think in this case it would look "right". The location would also be such that we look out the window and could see our hangar with our Cub while in the kitchen or eating dinner - what could be better?

So here's what we're now thinking:

1) Quonset hut for the Cub in the aforementioned nook
2) Remove the ugly outbuilding (currently around 33x33), build a 40x40 workshop there. Recess it back a bit further from the runway. That will become where I keep my stuff (Cobra, lift large enough to lift up the truck, tools). Make sure this building has a door large enough to fit a semi. I'm thinking a steel building for this but could be convinced on a hybrid pole barn hybrid with steel trusses to make for more overhead space and potentially an upstairs loft/mezzanine
3) Likely tear down the barn (although perhaps repair and then do some changes) and replace with a pole barn structure, likely a hybrid with steel trusses again so we have a hay loft area upstairs. This would become the primary tractor/equipment storage, leaving the shop as the shop more than storage. I could be convinced on not having a hay loft area. Laurie likes the idea of making some guest quarters in one of these buildings, but I think that probably would add a lot of cost for not much benefit because we'd then be looking at plumbing and septic to deal with, and I don't know how simple it would be to plumb something like that into our existing septic. Given the locations, my thought is it'd get expensive fast

In the end this changes things around a good bit from what we were initially thinking, and I also think will have some more tweaking to get it to be exactly what we want. But this also allows us to do things in some form of stages, and since we'd be talking about a significantly smaller concrete pad (40x40 instead of 50x60... nearly half the concrete) that cost savings would go towards what I think ultimately makes a better solution. The shop will be large enough to fit tractors inside if I have a need to work on them in the shop, but not tie up the higher dollar square footage and concrete with tractors that don't need it.

The one question I have in going with a 40x40 shop is that it wouldn't fit a bus/larger RV if one day we decide to buy one of those. I could go larger (40x50 would fit any bus/RV I could find) but I think that might be pushing the structure bigger than I want in that location.

In looking at this, I think the quonset is probably the most straightforward and the first structure we should add. For one it's the easiest to put up (and one I think we could pretty easily install ourselves) and gives us an area we can use for the tractors. Which structures we do next would then depend on other factors.

Something that surprises me is how hard it seems to be to find a local quonset hut manufacturer. You'd think in Kansas that'd be easier to do. So if anyone has any recommendations, let me know.

Ted, I like your thinking and think that keeping the charm of the barn is worth something both aesthetically and from a house value standpoint.

It does seem like a win to tear down the ugly 33' structure and replace with a proper shop and I think if you can find some way to reinforce and water tight the barn, you might enjoy it being there, as long as you do what you're proposing and stay clear on what it is for and not for, so you don't get dissapointed in it.

I will also add that some thoughts were given around building your shop with a concrete floor inside and either 1 or 2 side carports that could be gravel for "covered storage", with between 1-4 walls on them (I'd be tempted to just put a wall along the back side, especially if that's where the weather predominently blows from, but I don't know which way you're planning to orientate your new large workshop or which way your weather comes from. At my place, 90% of the time the wind is from the south, so if I were doing this, I'd make sure the south side of a carport had a wall, but the other 3 could be open and it would keep most of the abuse off of equipment

 

[Ted]

I will also add that some thoughts were given around building your shop with a concrete floor inside and either 1 or 2 side carports that could be gravel for "covered storage", with between 1-4 walls on them (I'd be tempted to just put a wall along the back side, especially if that's where the weather predominently blows from, but I don't know which way you're planning to orientate your new large workshop or which way your weather comes from. At my place, 90% of the time the wind is from the south, so if I were doing this, I'd make sure the south side of a carport had a wall, but the other 3 could be open and it would keep most of the abuse off of equipment

You bring up another interesting option there, the concept of maybe repairing/leaving the barn as-is, and then making my shop a more interesting structure with some lean-tos for the heavy equipment storage. The barn as-is dimensionally is still useful for the 9N, go karts, and riding mower plus a couple other things. A 40x40 workshop with lean-tos to handle the bigger tractors would keep them covered which would make things better.

 

[MIFlyer]

You bring up another interesting option there, the concept of maybe repairing/leaving the barn as-is, and then making my shop a more interesting structure with some lean-tos for the heavy equipment storage. The barn as-is dimensionally is still useful for the 9N, go karts, and riding mower plus a couple other things. A 40x40 workshop with lean-tos to handle the bigger tractors would keep them covered which would make things better.

One other thought for your structural engineer... if you're doing the lean to's, you might find that the amount of concrete you need to put down for the outer posts to resist wind lift loads makes it not that much cheaper than just putting 5' concrete slab under the lean to's...

 

[SoonerAviator]

We did concrete slab on a 30x50 pole barn, and gravel base for the lean-to which runs across the back 50' side. Half of the lean-to is for a car hauler, the other half is patio pavers which lead up to a pool. We also built a large swinging gate using the same corrugated metal material from the barn to add additional security from prying eyes looking to steal a trailer.

 

[C-1 PILOT]

Are there any TAX implications in your state, county? That’s a consideration if there is. Me personally, I’d build the hanger with room to spare for your shop and To house the other equipment.

 

[Ted]

Are there any TAX implications in your state, county? That’s a consideration if there is. Me personally, I’d build the hanger with room to spare for your shop and To house the other equipment.

I'm sure there are tax implications. That said, this is also where we live not just an industrial/commercial type of building, so aesthetic considerations do matter. We'll spend some more time thinking about it and playing with configurations too...

 

[timwinters]

One other thought for your structural engineer... if you're doing the lean to's, you might find that the amount of concrete you need to put down for the outer posts to resist wind lift loads makes it not that much cheaper than just putting 5' concrete slab under the lean to's...

Actually a lean to should (if I'm thinking correctly) have less uplift in a windstorm than an enclosed structure because the wind can pass across both the top and bottom surfaces of the roof structure thus creating less lift than if the wind is only passing across the top.

regardless, with a residential quality structure...enclosed or not...that's wood with metal sheathing...the sheathing is going to be ripped off of the wood before the wood structure moves...the vast majority of the time...especially after a few years when the wood gets a bit soft around the roofing screw threads.

 

[timwinters]

@Ted DuPuis

there are some damned good looking "metal buildings" out there. Many people around here are using them for homes these days. Build a big shop and finish off a part of it for a house. Morton is big into this concept but they're overpriced for what you get. And you could always put wood siding on it, especially if it's a glorified pole barn like you were pricing thru worldwide.

 

[Ted]

there are some damned good looking "metal buildings" out there. Many people around here are using them for homes these days. Build a big shop and finish off a part of it for a house. Morton is big into this concept but they're overpriced for what you get. And you could always put wood siding on it, especially if it's a glorified pole barn like you were pricing thru worldwide.

Laurie has wanted to have part of the shop for guest quarters. I like the idea of doing that, although I wonder how much that would end up costing just to handle the septic for that. Really other than the bonfire we have a minimal need for guest quarters, although undoubtedly a "mother-in-law suite" would add value to the property.

The big thing if we did a singe larger metal building would be dressing it up enough (outside) to maintain some of the charm. And there's also a question of security and placement... don't like things too close to the road.

 

[CJones]

You can get creative with septic if all you're dealing with is a single bathroom that has occasional use. They sell small plastic septic tanks that can be set with a small backhoe with a single field line run out of it.

There are building code implications if you are declaring septic/living quarters in the original design, though, so keep that in mind as a part of the inspection process.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I'd not want my shop more than 30 yards or so from my house. If I need a tool or other item, I don't want to have to walk a long distance in the rain or cold. In your case I'd also not want a lot of valuables closer to the road, even if the risk of theft is relatively low.

Without knowing intimate details of your land and arrangement of structures it's hard to suggest much. Perhaps a traditional hangar with living space (mother-in-law plan) is a decent option for near the house instead of a quonset, then build a cheaper/smaller pole barn for large equipment storage.

 

[C-1 PILOT]

I'm sure there are tax implications. That said, this is also where we live not just an industrial/commercial type of building, so aesthetic considerations do matter. We'll spend some more time thinking about it and playing with configurations too...

Ted, I e got 2 barns. In my case my big farm, pass thru, type barn isn’t taxed. It has a dirt floor with a concrete pad in the center. The smaller one has a concrete floor throughout, is insulated and has heat. It’s taxed, not much, but taxed. I. An only imagine what I’d pay if I wanted to erect a 40x60 hanger.

 

[GrummanBear]

Windows, lighting, and porticos go a long way in dressing up a pole barn. Some relatives who are ENT docs up in Nebraska have one kind of like this at their part-time ranch with the downstairs as a barn and the upstairs for living quarters.

 

[MIFlyer]

Windows, lighting, and porticos go a long way in dressing up a pole barn. Some relatives who are ENT docs up in Nebraska have one kind of like this at their part-time ranch with the downstairs as a barn and the upstairs for living quarters.


View attachment 85785

wow! even my wife likes that!

 

[Ted]

Well, I haven't updated at all on what we ended up deciding to do. I've had a few other things going on.

End result, we decided to replace the barn with a 40x54 steel building, 14' walls, with 8:12 roof pitch, and 12' cantilevered overhangs on either side to provide covered areas to store the tractors, bulldozer, etc. The overhangs have 4:12 pitch, in retrospect I wish I'd done 3:12 as I think that might look a little better and would fit the RV under one if I so desired. The concrete pad is 6" thick by spec, really more like 8" in most places so plenty of strength. Lots of rebar.

Because of the 8:12 roof pitch I was able to add a mezzanine in the back half of the area which will be a man cave. I plan on putting a pool table up there, and it will also serve as additional storage. I had a steel spiral staircase made for getting up there.

The garage door is going to be 22x14, big enough so that I can easily fit anything through there, including the RV, and park where it needs to be.

The barn will get torn down once construction is completed, one thing at a time.

It's been quite a process between delays getting the permit, issues with the concrete contractor... basically all of the standard issues you expect to have with construction. But construction on the building itself is nearly completed. The garage door should get installed in the first half of next month and I have to get electrical finished up, then I can get my certificate of occupancy and get to work on filling it.

We picked a really good time to sign the papers to do this (well, granted it was sort of picked for us with the storm damage to the barn). That May/June time period there was still some more uncertainty about what construction demand was going to look like and we managed to get good pricing locked in from the various suppliers we ended up using this. I think we managed to maintain a lot of the charm of a traditional Kansas barn style while also getting a lot of function in there. I can't wait to start wrenching in the building.

It's worth noting we do intend on a separate hangar structure, still a Quonset hut, but we'll do that at another point in the future. The runway's still not done yet and after the decision to shut down Cloud Nine and buy the RV, while we know we're going to do it still, it's on the back burner.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Nice barn, but looks like they built it upside down.

 

[Bill]

Nice barn, but looks like they built it upside down.

No worries, the barn had inverted oil and fuel systems!

 

[Ted]

Nice barn, but looks like they built it upside down.

It saves me money on having to buy a lift. Just keep the vehicle upsidedown and I can work on it that way!

 

[Matthew]

Never use an Australian contractor.

But it really does look good.

 

[Dave Theisen]

Reminds me of an old cartoon, “Hey, you were reading the plans upside down!”

 

[Southpaw]

Well, I haven't updated at all on what we ended up deciding to do. I've had a few other things going on.

End result, we decided to replace the barn with a 40x54 steel building, 14' walls, with 8:12 roof pitch, and 12' cantilevered overhangs on either side to provide covered areas to store the tractors, bulldozer, etc. The overhangs have 4:12 pitch, in retrospect I wish I'd done 3:12 as I think that might look a little better and would fit the RV under one if I so desired. The concrete pad is 6" thick by spec, really more like 8" in most places so plenty of strength. Lots of rebar.

Because of the 8:12 roof pitch I was able to add a mezzanine in the back half of the area which will be a man cave. I plan on putting a pool table up there, and it will also serve as additional storage. I had a steel spiral staircase made for getting up there.

The garage door is going to be 22x14, big enough so that I can easily fit anything through there, including the RV, and park where it needs to be.

The barn will get torn down once construction is completed, one thing at a time.

It's been quite a process between delays getting the permit, issues with the concrete contractor... basically all of the standard issues you expect to have with construction. But construction on the building itself is nearly completed. The garage door should get installed in the first half of next month and I have to get electrical finished up, then I can get my certificate of occupancy and get to work on filling it.

We picked a really good time to sign the papers to do this (well, granted it was sort of picked for us with the storm damage to the barn). That May/June time period there was still some more uncertainty about what construction demand was going to look like and we managed to get good pricing locked in from the various suppliers we ended up using this. I think we managed to maintain a lot of the charm of a traditional Kansas barn style while also getting a lot of function in there. I can't wait to start wrenching in the building.

It's worth noting we do intend on a separate hangar structure, still a Quonset hut, but we'll do that at another point in the future. The runway's still not done yet and after the decision to shut down Cloud Nine and buy the RV, while we know we're going to do it still, it's on the back burner.

View attachment 93347 View attachment 93348

Well, I haven't updated at all on what we ended up deciding to do. I've had a few other things going on.

End result, we decided to replace the barn with a 40x54 steel building, 14' walls, with 8:12 roof pitch, and 12' cantilevered overhangs on either side to provide covered areas to store the tractors, bulldozer, etc. The overhangs have 4:12 pitch, in retrospect I wish I'd done 3:12 as I think that might look a little better and would fit the RV under one if I so desired. The concrete pad is 6" thick by spec, really more like 8" in most places so plenty of strength. Lots of rebar.

Because of the 8:12 roof pitch I was able to add a mezzanine in the back half of the area which will be a man cave. I plan on putting a pool table up there, and it will also serve as additional storage. I had a steel spiral staircase made for getting up there.

The garage door is going to be 22x14, big enough so that I can easily fit anything through there, including the RV, and park where it needs to be.

The barn will get torn down once construction is completed, one thing at a time.

It's been quite a process between delays getting the permit, issues with the concrete contractor... basically all of the standard issues you expect to have with construction. But construction on the building itself is nearly completed. The garage door should get installed in the first half of next month and I have to get electrical finished up, then I can get my certificate of occupancy and get to work on filling it.

We picked a really good time to sign the papers to do this (well, granted it was sort of picked for us with the storm damage to the barn). That May/June time period there was still some more uncertainty about what construction demand was going to look like and we managed to get good pricing locked in from the various suppliers we ended up using this. I think we managed to maintain a lot of the charm of a traditional Kansas barn style while also getting a lot of function in there. I can't wait to start wrenching in the building.

It's worth noting we do intend on a separate hangar structure, still a Quonset hut, but we'll do that at another point in the future. The runway's still not done yet and after the decision to shut down Cloud Nine and buy the RV, while we know we're going to do it still, it's on the back burner.

View attachment 93347 View attachment 93348

Nice looking building . Hope you don't find it too small when you start filling it.
Believe me it happens.

 

[Ted]

Nice looking building . Hope you don't find it too small when you start filling it.
Believe me it happens.

It’s already too small

 

[Zeldman]

So..... if you park an airplane in a barn....

is it then called a....

wait for it.....

banger..??

 

[Everskyward]

Nice job of recreating the feel of the old barn I still see in the distance.

 

[Ted]

Nice job of recreating the feel of the old barn I still see in the distance.

Thanks! That was more or less the silhouette we wanted to copy. I think we did well with it, and it'll look even better once we get things more completed.

 

[Ted]

The building crew cleaned up and left today. I'm happy with how it came out.

The normal entry door is white because they sell a door designed for a steel building, and it comes in any color you want - as long as it's white. We're going to paint it black to match the rest of the trim.

The garage door is going to be installed sometime next month. Electrical is probably the bigger thing, which I'm waiting on the electrician for.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

The building crew cleaned up and left today. I'm happy with how it came out.

The normal entry door is white because they sell a door designed for a steel building, and it comes in any color you want - as long as it's white. We're going to paint it black to match the rest of the trim.

The garage door is going to be installed sometime next month. Electrical is probably the bigger thing, which I'm waiting on the electrician for.

If I were around longer I would come do the electrical for you.

 

[Matthew]

Nice!

 

[Matthew]

When’s the hoedown?

 

[Bill]

Looks good!

 

[Ted]

When’s the hoedown?

We are debating what to do this year for the bonfire, if anything. We have a lot less stuff to burn than normal and unfortunately things haven’t really returned to the level of normalcy we were expecting. So we may skip it or otherwise have a really small gathering.

 

[Matthew]

@Ted

It isn’t like you guys haven’t been busy or anything.

Remember meeting Dave? He’s the guy that, along with his neighbor Jeff, talked with you a bit about construction ideas. I showed him your final picture, the “hoedown” comment was the first thing he said. By the way, he approves.

Both those guys wish they had gone bigger now, too.

 

[Ted]

It isn’t like you guys haven’t been busy or anything.

Yeah it’s been a pretty quiet year...

Remember meeting Dave? He’s the guy that, along with his neighbor Jeff, talked with you a bit about construction ideas. I showed him your final picture, the “hoedown” comment was the first thing he said. By the way, he approves.

Both those guys wish they had gone bigger now, too.

I do remember, and seeing that shop convinced me 40x40 wouldn’t go that far. I also in some ways with I’d gone a bit bigger, but I think the compromise works really well in the end given the space we were working with. More pictures forthcoming as work continues.

 

[Matthew]

Yeah it’s been a pretty quiet year...



I do remember, and seeing that shop convinced me 40x40 wouldn’t go that far. I also in some ways with I’d gone a bit bigger, but I think the compromise works really well in the end given the space we were working with. More pictures forthcoming as work continues.

Yeah, you’re mission is a bit different from theirs. I know Jeff definitely wants to add onto his shop, I guess his car restoration and hot rodding work must be picking up. This whole year of being shut down has really changed the way people spend their money and time.

 

[Howard Wilson]

Beautiful Barn!
Did you happen to do a cost comparison between the steel building and a similar pole structure? We are looking at building an 'equipment shed', around 4,999 sq. feet, and are trying to figure out best value/sq.ft.
Thanks, h

 

[SoonerAviator]

Won't speak for Ted, but as far as steel vs pole barn, the increased cost was mostly in the reinforced foundation/footers as well as increased cost of erection equipment compared to pole barns, usually amounted to 35% increase in cost. Obviously the steel buildings are more of a "forever structure" but pole barns when properly built will last longer than you or I will live. With lumber prices where they are these days, it may make the playing field a little more even on cost depending on what commodity prices for red iron have done.





Sent from my SM-N976U using Tapatalk

 

[Ted]

Beautiful Barn!

Thank you!

Did you happen to do a cost comparison between the steel building and a similar pole structure? We are looking at building an 'equipment shed', around 4,999 sq. feet, and are trying to figure out best value/sq.ft.

I did do a cost comparison. The steel building did cost more apples to apples (I think I found it to be less than the 35% that @SoonerAviator mentioned above, more like 15-20% maximum). However, there's more to it than that.

Post frame buildings don't require cement floors, whereas with a steel building it would be hard to build one without the cement floor. You at least need a cement perimeter, and with a steel building the cement also serves to weigh down the building for wind loads (something I learned during the process). If you don't want a cement floor, which is a big cost savings, then a post frame is probably the way to go and it will save you a good sum.

But one of the big advantages of the steel building is that you have open trusses, which lets you put in a mezzanine, which I am doing. That will give me a significant amount of extra space both for storage and to use as a man cave area. While a bunch of people suggested the idea of a hybrid post frame building with steel trusses as a way to save some money, I couldn't find anyone who actually built those locally. When you factor in the extra value of the mezzanine area, the steel building becomes more economical than the post frame for the same square footage.

For me since I knew I wanted a concrete floor and also knew that I wanted the mezzanine, it made the decision to go steel pretty simple. I did want some non-concrete area for parking the tractors, bulldozer, etc., and so I solved that with the cantilevered overhangs on either side. By the way, I view this as a big advantage of steel because unlike a lean-to, there's no need to have support posts anywhere along the span, making that area more versatile.

The biggest negative of the steel building is that the vertical supports do stick out and so you have a little less width than you would with a post frame building. For me I didn't consider that enough of a negative, especially since I know I won't need to deal with wood rot.