Thinking About (finally) Replacing a GNS-430

[mark.staggs]

This is in a '65 M20C that has an older STEC 30 auto pilot, and someday I'd like to replace all the vacuum and engine instruments with GI-275s. Current I have a VERY old King KMA-20, GNS-430, Apollo/Garmin SL-30 nav/com #2, and a Garmin ADS-B Out (only) transponder.

I've gotten complaints over the last year or so from others that the 430's radios are basically unintelligible, and I've noticed reception has degraded as well. The screen's okay, but it seems to have a bit of "ghosting" more than it used to. I don't think I want to throw any money at that dinosaur. Keeping the SL-30 seems prudent since it still works fine, and has nice features despite its age. I would like to have an audio panel made in this century as well as ADS-B in.

What does the peanut gallery think about a PS Engineering PAR 200-B and a GNX-375? This would also involve removing the KMA-20, GNS-430, Sigtronix intercom, and Garmin transponder. I'm kicking the can down the road on adding GI-275s.

Just using some sites like Sarasota Avionics, the cost seems like it'd be about a 1/3 more to do a GTN-650/GMA-345 which would still leave me without ADS-B in. Another issue is older Mooney's panel space is limited so having the PS Engineering/Trig radio remote makes some sense to me if I or someone ever wanted to install a modern autopilot. However, I have no idea on labor costs or differences. I assume audio panels have to be a huge PITA to upgrade from these old-@$$ed King panels.

 

[write-stuff]

Yes, the GTN 650 is massively better than the 430. It also works great with GI 275s (you will LOVE them)!

 

[MountainDude]

I would go with an avidyne, simply because the screen can be mirrored on an iPad mini. Check out the youtube videos and decide for yourself.

 

[WDD]

What does the peanut gallery think about a PS Engineering PAR 200-B and a GNX-375?

Had that audio panel, worked great, saved a lot of panel space.

Overall, I think you have a good plan. It can always be upgraded with the GI 275's, GFC 500 auto pilot, etc. SL 20 is old, but if it still works, great. Bonus is that it give you a Nav radio as a backup to the GPS.

 

[mark.staggs]

Had that audio panel, worked great, saved a lot of panel space.

Overall, I think you have a good plan. It can always be upgraded with the GI 275's, GFC 500 auto pilot, etc. SL 20 is old, but if it still works, great. Bonus is that it give you a Nav radio as a backup to the GPS.

Thanks! I was curious about thoughts on the PSE + Trig radio combo. Glad to hear it's a solid option.

 

[asicer]

I'm kicking the can down the road on adding GI-275s.

What do you currently have for a CDI? It might be better to bite the bullet now. The 275's would likely use a different interconnect to talk to both the SL30 and the GNX375.

 

[theplanesalon]

Mooney owner of 30 years and avionics / paint shop owner out west.

The 375 is a great unit for panel constrained aircraft. Having an Approach-capable GPs bundled with a transponder is a good idea for around the $8K retail range. Just the GTX345 transponder sets you back $6500ish, and it doesn’t have a display. We install these and audio panels all the time out west near Los Angeles.

Keeping the SL30 is a fine idea as they are really fine radios. Garmin decided to recycle the idea and introduce 215’s, though they scratch $5k. You already have a fine audio panel.

The par200b is a fine unit with a built in comm.

 

[Jon Wilder]

The GTN 650Xi rack will install in place of a 430 rack without the need to drill in the aircraft. The connectors, back plate, and wiring will of course need to be changed.

The small form navigators (GNX 375/GNC 355/GPS 175) are not the same height as the GNS 4xx (the GNS bezel is just over half inch taller than the small form navigators).

My vote is for the GTN 650Xi.

 

[WDD]

As you need ADSB IN, you do need a newer transponder. I think you have a good plan.

Your center stack is a bit tight, might want room for future updates. Can you move the dimmer switch and light fuse to free up that top level rack? I'd then move your stack up. You'd have room for an future GFC 500 or what not. Heck, you could even put in a GTN 650XI for a second GPS and get a new Nav/Com 1.

As @Jon Wilder mentioned, I do like the sized and functions of the GTN 650xi over the size of GNX 375. But I flew for a year with only a GNC 355 (same size as the GNX) and it worked fine. And the GTN 650xi would require you to also buy a new transponder if you wanted a panel mounted ADSB IN.

 

[Lowflynjack]

I've posted about Sarasota Avionic before. I know nothing about them other than I like how they share pricing and I don't have to worry about price gouging. They also show a comparison of two units.

For me, my GNS 430W is more than I need. I'm a VFR pilot though and with the 430, iPad, and iPhone using Foreflight, I'm good. When I start working on IFR, I would really like something a little more user-friendly than the 430 and the 650XI looks pretty good.

GTN UPGRADE: GNS 430W to GTN 650Xi

Garmin Panel Mount GPS Upgrade

sarasotaavionics.com

For years, the trusty Garmin GNS 430W series has proven to be a game-changing, all-in-one comm/nav/GPS package that does a lot of things amazingly well. So why, loyal owners ask, should they consider trading up to the newer GTN 650 touchscreen systems? The short answer: You still get the great things the GNS 430 can do – PLUS you get a much simpler, centralized and more intuitive user interface, a “shallower” menu structure, and a wealth of innovative features and capabilities that take graphical flight planning, systems management and GPS guidance technology to whole new levels of utility. Touchscreen control not only streamlines tuning and mode selection – but, in effect, lets pilots utilize the GTN 650 as a virtual flight management system.

 

[mark.staggs]

As you need ADSB IN, you do need a newer transponder. I think you have a good plan.

Your center stack is a bit tight, might want room for future updates. Can you move the dimmer switch and light fuse to free up that top level rack? I'd then move your stack up. You'd have room for an future GFC 500 or what not. Heck, you could even put in a GTN 650XI for a second GPS and get a new Nav/Com 1.

As @Jon Wilder mentioned, I do like the sized and functions of the GTN 650xi over the size of GNX 375. But I flew for a year with only a GNC 355 (same size as the GNX) and it worked fine. And the GTN 650xi would require you to also buy a new transponder if you wanted a panel mounted ADSB IN.

Yeah, I'd consider the GTN 650 upgrade, but I would still like to have an updated transponder just to have both ADS-B in. I suppose that is not nearly as important as having a decent audio panel and Com 1, though.

The dimmer and breaker could definitely be moved, but that might be moot since Mooneys have some supports behind the panel that may prevent anything of depth going there. TBH, not sure without refreshing my memory of what's behind there.

Now with the Axis stuff out, if I win the lottery that would be my answer. Barring that, I'll have to do this in a more "economical" view.

 

[Jon Wilder]

Looks like you already have a GTX 345 (or maybe it's a 335...which a 345 will swap right into its slot, but will require wiring changes). I would retain that and go with the GTN 650Xi.

 

[asicer]

Looks like you already have a GTX 345 (or maybe it's a 335...which a 345 will swap right into its slot, but will require wiring changes). I would retain that and go with the GTN 650Xi.

As I recall, the GTX345 has 2 connectors in the back while the GTX335 only has 1 but it is the same as one of the two on the 345.

 

[WDD]

He doesn’t have ADSB In with his current Garmin transponder.

 

[Jon Wilder]

As I recall, the GTX345 has 2 connectors in the back while the GTX335 only has 1 but it is the same as one of the two on the 345.

Yes. The 2nd connector (DB15) is for the HSDB (Ethernet) interface to the GTN (335s don't have HSDB as they don't have traffic). But the back plate is the same. They just need to get that 2nd connector and backshell.

 

[WDD]

Barring that, I'll have to do this in a more "economical" view.

Sounds smart. If you start with your original plan, you should be able to "scale up" in the future when you want. Add the GTN 650xi at some point, and it will play nicely with your GNX 375. As far as priorities, I'd add the GNX 375. ADSB In is great, and while you can get it with a Stratus 3, etc., having it permanently installed is a step up.

As nice as the new AXIS appears to be, I wish they had made it modular. That is, buy the basic AXIS glass, and you can add widgets (Com, Nav, GPS, Transponder, whatever) as you go along by plugging something in at the back. They could even have enhanced features built in but disabled, ready for you to pay Garmin money for the code to enable.

Thus, an install with separate components like the GTN/GI 275/Transponder/Audio Panel etc. approach will still be appealing.

 

[mark.staggs]

Sounds smart. If you start with your original plan, you should be able to "scale up" in the future when you want. Add the GTN 650xi at some point, and it will play nicely with your GNX 375. As far as priorities, I'd add the GNX 375. ADSB In is great, and while you can get it with a Stratus 3, etc., having it permanently installed is a step up.

As nice as the new AXIS appears to be, I wish they had made it modular. That is, buy the basic AXIS glass, and you can add widgets (Com, Nav, GPS, Transponder, whatever) as you go along by plugging something in at the back. They could even have enhanced features built in but disabled, ready for you to pay Garmin money for the code to enable.

Thus, an install with separate components like the GTN/GI 275/Transponder/Audio Panel etc. approach will still be appealing.

Yeah, that would've been VERY nice regarding Axis.

Honestly, I'd much prefer the 650Xi initially. But like you said having ADS-B in is a step up and much better than having to use a Sentry or Stratus.

I went down the rabbit hole yesterday thinking maybe I should do the GTN 650Xi and a GMA audio panel, then do a remote GTX345 later to get ADS-B in. The center stack real estate is at a bit of a premium so anything remote or small form factor gives an advantage for a potential GFC-500 later (hopefully much later) once the S-TEC poops out.

 

[asicer]

The center stack real estate is at a bit of a premium

I don’t think it’s as bad as you think. After you replace the Sigtronics/KMA20 combo with an audio panel that has an integrated intercom, you just need to relocate that dimmer and the breaker.

Not counting that, you already have KMA+GNS+SL30+GTX=1.66+2.66+1.33+1.66=7.31 inches or so. Relocating the dimmer and breaker would put you around 10 inches.

 

[Jon Wilder]

Yeah, that would've been VERY nice regarding Axis.

Honestly, I'd much prefer the 650Xi initially. But like you said having ADS-B in is a step up and much better than having to use a Sentry or Stratus.

I went down the rabbit hole yesterday thinking maybe I should do the GTN 650Xi and a GMA audio panel, then do a remote GTX345 later to get ADS-B in. The center stack real estate is at a bit of a premium so anything remote or small form factor gives an advantage for a potential GFC-500 later (hopefully much later) once the S-TEC poops out.

The GMA 345 audio panel is a great option.

 

[asicer]

The GMA 345 audio panel is a great option.

Yes, it is. But a PMA450 is even better.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

This is in a '65 M20C that has an older STEC 30 auto pilot, and someday I'd like to replace all the vacuum and engine instruments with GI-275s. Current I have a VERY old King KMA-20, GNS-430, Apollo/Garmin SL-30 nav/com #2, and a Garmin ADS-B Out (only) transponder.

I've gotten complaints over the last year or so from others that the 430's radios are basically unintelligible, and I've noticed reception has degraded as well. The screen's okay, but it seems to have a bit of "ghosting" more than it used to. I don't think I want to throw any money at that dinosaur. Keeping the SL-30 seems prudent since it still works fine, and has nice features despite its age. I would like to have an audio panel made in this century as well as ADS-B in.

What does the peanut gallery think about a PS Engineering PAR 200-B and a GNX-375? This would also involve removing the KMA-20, GNS-430, Sigtronix intercom, and Garmin transponder. I'm kicking the can down the road on adding GI-275s.

Just using some sites like Sarasota Avionics, the cost seems like it'd be about a 1/3 more to do a GTN-650/GMA-345 which would still leave me without ADS-B in. Another issue is older Mooney's panel space is limited so having the PS Engineering/Trig radio remote makes some sense to me if I or someone ever wanted to install a modern autopilot. However, I have no idea on labor costs or differences. I assume audio panels have to be a huge PITA to upgrade from these old-@$$ed King panels.

Honestly, this is the scenario the Axis was made for. You have a whole bunch of older stuff - I mean, you're talking about needing to replace one of the newest things in your panel (the 430). In addition, looking at your "someday panel", three GI275s with installation tends to run more than installing a G3X Touch with EIS from everything I've heard (I've been looking hard at this stuff for several years myself). Doing piecemeal replacements of a bunch of different boxes is going to cost you a LOT of money in installation.

Were I you, I'd be looking at just the 116C Axis display, keep your SL30 Nav/Com, run a GI275 backup, and (optionally/eventually) upgrade to the GTX 345R so you get ADS-B In.

The Axis 116C display is $18,400 and includes the display, an IFR GPS, a Com radio, and an audio panel that are all tied together for you already (lower install cost). The GI275 ADAHRS+AP ($5100) serves as a backup and drives your S-TEC autopilot until you're ready to replace that, and as a bonus it'll give you GPSS if you don't already have the S-TEC GPSS box. Cost: $23,500 plus install.

Doing it piecemeal to get to the same place: 3X GI275s (ADAHRS+AP $5100, ADAHRS $4100, EIS $5600) total $14,800; GNX375 $9395, PAR 200B with Trig TY91L $3900 for a total of $28,095 plus an install that will also be more expensive. So, the Axis is likely to *save* you about $10K and you'll get a much more capable panel too.

Can you do a little now and a little later that way? Well, no. Might saving $10K overall be worth it to do it all now? Note that the other difference is ADS-B In, you can upgrade the transponder from the 335 to a 345 or 345R whenever you feel like it if you go with the Axis, and the price difference will pretty much pay for that.

Now with the Axis stuff out, if I win the lottery that would be my answer. Barring that, I'll have to do this in a more "economical" view.

Just pointing out that "cheap" and "economical" are not the same thing.

 

[mark.staggs]

Honestly, this is the scenario the Axis was made for. You have a whole bunch of older stuff - I mean, you're talking about needing to replace one of the newest things in your panel (the 430). In addition, looking at your "someday panel", three GI275s with installation tends to run more than installing a G3X Touch with EIS from everything I've heard (I've been looking hard at this stuff for several years myself). Doing piecemeal replacements of a bunch of different boxes is going to cost you a LOT of money in installation.

Were I you, I'd be looking at just the 116C Axis display, keep your SL30 Nav/Com, run a GI275 backup, and (optionally/eventually) upgrade to the GTX 345R so you get ADS-B In.

The Axis 116C display is $18,400 and includes the display, an IFR GPS, a Com radio, and an audio panel that are all tied together for you already (lower install cost). The GI275 ADAHRS+AP ($5100) serves as a backup and drives your S-TEC autopilot until you're ready to replace that, and as a bonus it'll give you GPSS if you don't already have the S-TEC GPSS box. Cost: $23,500 plus install.

Doing it piecemeal to get to the same place: 3X GI275s (ADAHRS+AP $5100, ADAHRS $4100, EIS $5600) total $14,800; GNX375 $9395, PAR 200B with Trig TY91L $3900 for a total of $28,095 plus an install that will also be more expensive. So, the Axis is likely to *save* you about $10K and you'll get a much more capable panel too.

Can you do a little now and a little later that way? Well, no. Might saving $10K overall be worth it to do it all now? Note that the other difference is ADS-B In, you can upgrade the transponder from the 335 to a 345 or 345R whenever you feel like it if you go with the Axis, and the price difference will pretty much pay for that.

I knew someone was going to post this eventually. I'd done some of this math and had sort of come to the same conclusion. The only thing you probably missed would be cutting a new actual panel, which by comparison isn't _that_ much. The only issue is now is just money--one bigger number at first instead of being spread out over a few years.

Just pointing out that "cheap" and "economical" are not the same thing.

Indeed!

 

[MPB]

This is in a '65 M20C that has an older STEC 30 auto pilot, and someday I'd like to replace all the vacuum and engine instruments with GI-275s. Current I have a VERY old King KMA-20, GNS-430, Apollo/Garmin SL-30 nav/com #2, and a Garmin ADS-B Out (only) transponder.

I've gotten complaints over the last year or so from others that the 430's radios are basically unintelligible, and I've noticed reception has degraded as well. The screen's okay, but it seems to have a bit of "ghosting" more than it used to. I don't think I want to throw any money at that dinosaur. Keeping the SL-30 seems prudent since it still works fine, and has nice features despite its age. I would like to have an audio panel made in this century as well as ADS-B in.

What does the peanut gallery think about a PS Engineering PAR 200-B and a GNX-375? This would also involve removing the KMA-20, GNS-430, Sigtronix intercom, and Garmin transponder. I'm kicking the can down the road on adding GI-275s.

Just using some sites like Sarasota Avionics, the cost seems like it'd be about a 1/3 more to do a GTN-650/GMA-345 which would still leave me without ADS-B in. Another issue is older Mooney's panel space is limited so having the PS Engineering/Trig radio remote makes some sense to me if I or someone ever wanted to install a modern autopilot. However, I have no idea on labor costs or differences. I assume audio panels have to be a huge PITA to upgrade from these old-@$$ed King panels.

View attachment 152079

 

[MPB]

Beech River airport - cool place - I know where that is!

I’d get a PM8000G audio panel - the gentleman who runs PS engineering recommended one to me (on POA no less) to replace a KMA20 and a PM1000 - some of the best advice I’ve received!

Is the 430 WAAS? If so I’d run it until it’s BER - Bevan avionics can make the 430s talk and listen better.

I’d keep the STEC30 - everyone is switching them out and parts are thus plentiful - do you have GPSS?

Your navcom is well regarded. I’d put in an Av30c attitude indicator.

Anything beyond the above and I’d buy another plane.

 

[MackMooney]

Beech River airport - cool place - I know where that is!

I’d get a PM8000G audio panel - the gentleman who runs PS engineering recommended one to me (on POA no less) to replace a KMA20 and a PM1000 - some of the best advice I’ve received!

Is the 430 WAAS? If so I’d run it until it’s BER - Bevan avionics can make the 430s talk and listen better.

I’d keep the STEC30 - everyone is switching them out and parts are thus plentiful - do you have GPSS?

Your navcom is well regarded. I’d put in an Av30c attitude indicator.

Anything beyond the above and I’d buy another plane.

Audio panel replacement = ????, panel is cheap labor is absolutely stupid. you're a good chunk toward the axis at that point.

I replaced my kma20 with the pma8000g, EXCELLENT audio panel but if you're replacing the 430 might as well go with the axis

 

[Jon Wilder]

What do the PS Engineering audio panels have that Garmin's does not?

 

[asicer]

What do the PS Engineering audio panels have that Garmin's does not?

An OLED screen, for one. The Garmin gives me an aural confirmation that I changed a mode, one that may have arrived at the same time as an ATC transmission. I'd much rather deal with ATC and then later look at the screen to confirm that it's in the mode that I want. Or check the panel's state in the entirety through visual means rather than having to listen to everything.

I'm sure others can pile on.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

What do the PS Engineering audio panels have that Garmin's does not?

A company that only does one thing and does it really well. Garmin's audio panels only exist so that Garmin can sell you an audio panel with all of your other whizbang gadgets. They're a bit of an afterthought IMO. They're not bad, but they're not as good as PSE.

 

[MIFlyer]

Before you decide, figure out if you'd be ahead to do the Axis with the comm/nav/gps and then what else you'd need. the price may not be much more than a 650/gi275s, etc, etc.