Thinking about a Bus/RV

Congrats. Can’t wait to see where you feel the need for Tedification to occur.
 
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TCABM said:
Congrats. Can’t wait to see where you feel the need for Tedification to occur.
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Once we do a few trips I'm sure we'll get a list together. The generator has a few areas that I want to try to quiet it further and think I can. There's no solar on the roof, and I do really enjoy having solar. I saw one person with 4.2kW of solar on an H3-45, an impressively packed amount but shows what is possible.

The bus uses a J1708 setup like my RV, so I'll hopefully be able to reuse my BlueFire setup to get some more data on what's going on with the engine.

With not even 100k miles on an engine reputed to be able to go 1M miles, hopefully I'm going to be a ways from needing any engine work. But the turbo is an old KKK K31, and Series 60s have good aftermarket support in terms of higher flowing exhaust manifolds. If I ever have issues that cause me to need to replace those (or at least pull them) I'll be looking for an upgrade.

The transmission has a retarder (no Jakes on the engine) so that creates a lot of heat. We'll see how that does, especially in the summer, and that may necessitate some extra cooling.

Super singles are on the list for the drive axles as a maybe, after I see how I think the bus does in general (and how the super singles do on my current RV - I still haven't driven it since installing those).

I'll probably want to keep my hubcaps and put them on the drive axles, and I also like the AirTabs and found them to be very useful. I may consider adding those to this bus, although first I'll see how it does in some crosswinds, driving on 2-lane roads, and the like.

But first, I'll just get it home and see what I think.
 
Apparently they wasted no time in getting our Prevost out of the dealership and to the shop where the modifications/changes will be getting made. We're going to go with the separate Splendide washer/dryer. Our current RV has the all-in-one Splendide which is ok, but with 5 of us (and a lot of laundry) being able to run both washer and dryer at the same time will help a lot. That was a significant wish list item. We also need to get dimensions of the current fridge so that we can pick out our replacement fridge and get that coming.

We'll see how sale of my current RV goes. It is definitely the sort of thing that needs the "right" buyer.
 
Congrats Ted! Cant wait to see the interior pictures. And the Jira list of things to do...
 
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Ted said:
In what should be a surprise to no one, we've signed a contract on a Prevost.

View attachment 120937

In typical Ted fashion, I've basically done everything to my bus, have massively improved it, and then decide to put it up for sale and buy something else.

The reality is that an upgrade has been on our minds for a while, and a Prevost is what we wanted from the beginning. However at the time we wouldn't have been able to swing one (or at least not a good one). For a first RV, what we bought made the most sense for a lot of reasons - including the fact that we had no idea whether we were going to like this or not. The end result has been that we obviously like it a whole lot.

Although we spent our time looking at other options, we just kept on coming back to the Prevost. We love the looks, we love a commercial designed and built chassis intended to go a million miles, and by all accounts the support network is very good. It doesn't hurt having a Detroit Series 60 (perhaps the most prolific bus and semi truck engine of modern times) and an Allison B500 (perhaps the most prolific bus transmission of modern times). Yes, it's more complex than what we have now, but with significant benefits.

This particular one that we were considering has a triple bunk interior setup and on the whole seemed to be as close to exactly what we wanted on paper as we were likely to find. There were a few things we weren't sure about with it. RVs can be hard to take good pictures in, and the reality is many people take bad pictures anyway. The location of the toilet closet wasn't clear as it related to other items. In the end, it actually was a very nice and cohesive layout on the whole. The major gripe we had was the lack of a washer and dryer. This was a big deal for us - however as part of the sale price I negotiated them installing these units (in place of the second vanity sink - something we didn't see a need for) as well as changing the refrigerator (both require the windshield to be removed, so many as well do these both at once) and some other nits. They'll do these over the course of the next month or so and then I'll take delivery.

The test drive and general walk around/inspection/impressions were all very positive. The driving quality difference is exactly what I'd expected. I got my RV to be as good of driving of an RV as one could get from a Freightliner XC (and really for the most part it's pretty good), but it's still night and day. We're all really going to enjoy the drives with it. While it is bigger than our current RV, at the end of the day it's not a huge amount taller, the width is the same, and it's only 5' longer. It's not that huge of a difference. The motorhome chassis from Prevost has the shortest wheelbase, and between that, the lifting tag axle, and the independent front suspension, it turns just fine.

Naturally, this means our current RV is going to go up for sale. I have a few details I need to finish up on it (and I haven't even test driven it with the super singles - sadly that was something I probably shouldn't have done) but then I need to get a listing together. If anyone on here who's been following my RV is interested in it, send me a PM and we can talk details. I have a rough idea of what I'd like to get out of it but haven't settled on a firm price.
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whew that's pretty! Congratulations. Also looking forward to some more pictures.
 
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TCABM said:
Dealer wouldn’t take it on trade?
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I didn't want to bother discussing it. A dealer has to buy a trade-in cheap enough that they know they can somehow make money off of it. The problem with mine is that it's got a lot of extra stuff added to it that makes it a smaller potential target market - it has to be to the "right" buyer. I understand this and I didn't want to complicate things with it. Plus, I think it made me able to make an offer that ultimately saves me money because I was able to leave out the trade aspect.
 
Ted said:
… I think it made me able to make an offer that ultimately saves me money because I was able to leave out the trade aspect.
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That’s generally how I approach dealer trades too, except in Texas we only pay sales tax on the delta between trade value and selling price; that sometimes tips the hand in favor of a trade for simplicity sake.

We did not do that last month when we bought her new RX though…her Infinit is a 2012 and what we can get for it private party far exceeds dealer trade value.
 
TCABM said:
That’s generally how I approach dealer trades too, except in Texas we only pay sales tax on the delta between trade value and selling price; that sometimes tips the hand in favor of a trade for simplicity sake.

We did not do that last month when we bought her new RX though…her Infinit is a 2012 and what we can get for it private party far exceeds dealer trade value.
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I've occasionally been able to make a trade work (Kansas has that same tax on purchase minus trade) but in this case, I just didn't see it making sense. In the end I'm likely the best salesman for this since I did the work and can explain everything I did and all the benefits.
 
Congrats on the new one! I suppose the chances of driving it around for a year as-is to see how you like it is out of the question? :)

I shouldn't joke, I'm actually a bit jealous of the energy level you have to do all of these things to whatever bit of equipment you have.
 
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Albany Tom said:
Congrats on the new one! I suppose the chances of driving it around for a year as-is to see how you like it is out of the question? :)
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We'll see how it goes. I don't have plans to bring it home and immediately start working on it, but knowing me I'll find things I feel compelled to do.

Really I'd like to get the Cobra and RX-7 done.
 
Since the bus isn't here for me to work on yet, I've been spending some time thinking about likely desired mods to the Prevost once it comes into my possession. Obviously the first thing to do is just drive it for a while and see what I think. But there are a few ideas that've come to mind.

I definitely want to do a solar array. I was very happy with how solar went on this bus. I did end up limiting it to 1200W between ease of install on the roof, size of panels, and also the size of the inverter I'd bought. Between having a 45' bus instead of a 40' bus and fewer things on the roof (I think), I think it would be doable to get more power on the roof than I did, and I think it would be worthwhile. I'll need to see what the power consumption is like, especially for things like the Aquahot, which handles the heating as well. It would be fantastic if I'd only have to run the generator for air conditioning when boondocking year round.

That would also bring the batteries into question, of course. Right now it's got 8x 12V/100AH lithium batteries on a 24V system, so a total of 24V/400AH. Basically double the capacity that I have now, but with lithiums instead of flooded lead acids so the same capacity ends up equating to more power overall. Still, the bus has more systems, so I'll have to see how that works out.

One thing that I do/did have some concern about is the ability to drive the bus off pavement. I think that some of the reports are a combination of overblown and drivers who don't necessarily know what they're doing. But I've got a couple of ideas. The first one is an air locking diff (which is common in semis). Assuming that such a locker is available for whatever type of drive axle the Prevost uses, this seems like it could be worthwhile. Converting it to a tandem drive axle with air locker that engages both axles is probably not doable from my initial looking at the arrangement of the axles and driveshaft. That would be the "simple" solution if I could make that work, although it would also mean that when the tag axle (becoming a drive axle) was lifted I'd need to also engage the lock that would have both axles be drive axles.

Another idea would be something like this to make the tag axle be a drive axle in certain situations:

1696342374398.png

It creates an interesting idea, having hub mount adapters on the drive and tag axles, with a chain (or belt) connecting them would be a way to to make a 6x4 bus. The primary negative for it would be having to go out and put on those chains/belts for those situations and then remove them afterwards. And then the other negative of having some unsightly adapters for it bolted to the wheels so all I'd need to do would be to put the chain on when needed.

Am I likely to do it? No. Is it an interesting, Ted-like idea? Absolutely, and something to ponder about.

Depending on how the transmission retarder heats up the transmission fluid, I may decide to add an additional cooler if that becomes an issue. I don't think adding Jakes is a really feasible idea. And given the pretty poor access to the valve cover for Jake install/adjustment/repair, maybe that's not a bad thing. But it would be perfectly feasible to add some kind of exhaust flapper brake similar to what my current bus has on it if I decided I wanted/needed additional braking capability for the long downgrades, I'll have to look at it.

On the Series 60 front, there's not a lot for me to do from what I can tell, or rather not much worth doing. Being that this is a pre-emissions engine it doesn't have EGR, DEF, or any of those things that became problem areas for diesels in the later aughts and onwards. The main things as far as I can tell are looking at an upgraded turbo and upgraded exhaust manifold. Similar to the turbo on the 3126, it looks like a modern design should net me around 8-10% improvement on compressor efficiency, and the numbers on improved exhaust manifolds are good as well. I wouldn't do either of them just for fun, but if I had a cause to, that's what I would do. I don't particularly care about trying to add horsepower and break the drivetrain, similar to my philosophy on the current/old bus.
 
Ted said:
Since the bus isn't here for me to work on yet, I've been spending some time thinking about likely desired mods to the Prevost once it comes into my possession. Obviously the first thing to do is just drive it for a while and see what I think. But there are a few ideas that've come to mind.

I definitely want to do a solar array. I was very happy with how solar went on this bus. I did end up limiting it to 1200W between ease of install on the roof, size of panels, and also the size of the inverter I'd bought. Between having a 45' bus instead of a 40' bus and fewer things on the roof (I think), I think it would be doable to get more power on the roof than I did, and I think it would be worthwhile. I'll need to see what the power consumption is like, especially for things like the Aquahot, which handles the heating as well. It would be fantastic if I'd only have to run the generator for air conditioning when boondocking year round.

That would also bring the batteries into question, of course. Right now it's got 8x 12V/100AH lithium batteries on a 24V system, so a total of 24V/400AH. Basically double the capacity that I have now, but with lithiums instead of flooded lead acids so the same capacity ends up equating to more power overall. Still, the bus has more systems, so I'll have to see how that works out.

One thing that I do/did have some concern about is the ability to drive the bus off pavement. I think that some of the reports are a combination of overblown and drivers who don't necessarily know what they're doing. But I've got a couple of ideas. The first one is an air locking diff (which is common in semis). Assuming that such a locker is available for whatever type of drive axle the Prevost uses, this seems like it could be worthwhile. Converting it to a tandem drive axle with air locker that engages both axles is probably not doable from my initial looking at the arrangement of the axles and driveshaft. That would be the "simple" solution if I could make that work, although it would also mean that when the tag axle (becoming a drive axle) was lifted I'd need to also engage the lock that would have both axles be drive axles.

Another idea would be something like this to make the tag axle be a drive axle in certain situations:

View attachment 121117

It creates an interesting idea, having hub mount adapters on the drive and tag axles, with a chain (or belt) connecting them would be a way to to make a 6x4 bus. The primary negative for it would be having to go out and put on those chains/belts for those situations and then remove them afterwards. And then the other negative of having some unsightly adapters for it bolted to the wheels so all I'd need to do would be to put the chain on when needed.

Am I likely to do it? No. Is it an interesting, Ted-like idea? Absolutely, and something to ponder about.

Depending on how the transmission retarder heats up the transmission fluid, I may decide to add an additional cooler if that becomes an issue. I don't think adding Jakes is a really feasible idea. And given the pretty poor access to the valve cover for Jake install/adjustment/repair, maybe that's not a bad thing. But it would be perfectly feasible to add some kind of exhaust flapper brake similar to what my current bus has on it if I decided I wanted/needed additional braking capability for the long downgrades, I'll have to look at it.

On the Series 60 front, there's not a lot for me to do from what I can tell, or rather not much worth doing. Being that this is a pre-emissions engine it doesn't have EGR, DEF, or any of those things that became problem areas for diesels in the later aughts and onwards. The main things as far as I can tell are looking at an upgraded turbo and upgraded exhaust manifold. Similar to the turbo on the 3126, it looks like a modern design should net me around 8-10% improvement on compressor efficiency, and the numbers on improved exhaust manifolds are good as well. I wouldn't do either of them just for fun, but if I had a cause to, that's what I would do. I don't particularly care about trying to add horsepower and break the drivetrain, similar to my philosophy on the current/old bus.
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The belt drive doesn't sound "Ted"-enough. I think you need to fab up an EV-tag axle that allows for extra power for off-road, as well as a resistive braking load for long downhill grades!
 
SoonerAviator said:
The belt drive doesn't sound "Ted"-enough. I think you need to fab up an EV-tag axle that allows for extra power for off-road, as well as a resistive braking load for long downhill grades!
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Do tag axles have brakes? What I'm picturing is a pair of electric motors on the tag axle to give that little extra push right when and where you need it, along with regenerative braking on down grades. Killing all sorts of (mostly imaginary) birds with one simple (haha) stone.
 
I like the thinking on the solar and battery. Seems like more in this case is always better.
 
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SoonerAviator said:
The belt drive doesn't sound "Ted"-enough. I think you need to fab up an EV-tag axle that allows for extra power for off-road, as well as a resistive braking load for long downhill grades!
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iamtheari said:
Do tag axles have brakes? What I'm picturing is a pair of electric motors on the tag axle to give that little extra push right when and where you need it, along with regenerative braking on down grades. Killing all sorts of (mostly imaginary) birds with one simple (haha) stone.
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Tag axles do have brakes on them, which is considered to be one of the advantages of having a tag - you get 6 brakes instead of 4. That said, with 2x the weight of my current bus, I didn't find the braking to be particularly stellar in comparison. The Prevost has the added advantage of disc brakes on all axles as opposed to drums, but that should more help with brake fade rather than overall braking performance in this application.

The electric motor setup is a good alternate idea (and probably better/more practical) - you may recall I'd considered the idea of converting the front axle on my current bus to be an electric drive axle for exactly those benefits. I think the real question would be how compact of an electric drive setup I could come up with that's also powerful enough. Something to look into. Oh, and a giant lithium battery setup of course.
 
Ted said:
Something to look into. Oh, and a giant lithium battery setup of course.
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Solar isn’t a full time generator; you need to add a wind turbine to the generation mix. One that could be deployed while driving or in camp.
 
TCABM said:
Solar isn’t a full time generator; you need to add a wind turbine to the generation mix. One that could be deployed while driving or in camp.
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One of the primary pillars of Ted-ist modifications is that they don't require much (if any) setup and take down, they just work on their own. Wind power doesn't fall into this particularly well; it has its places but I'm not a big fan of it for the RV.
 
Ted said:
One of the primary pillars of Ted-ist modifications is that they don't require much (if any) setup and take down, they just work on their own. Wind power doesn't fall into this particularly well; it has its places but I'm not a big fan of it for the RV.
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I see what you did there.
 
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Just chatted with the shop I'm buying the new bus from and we went over the list. Had a good conversation. We'll see when 1) he's done and 2) when I go to pick the thing up.
 
Spring Ford said:
Go Ted or go home :)
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They make tracks for semis:

1696421383924.png

But as you'd imagine, putting these on when you're in the position where you need them would be difficult. Plus going between a dual rear axle and a tag axle (single rear wheel) wouldn't work.

@SoonerAviator 's suggestion of the EV drives would be a good one, and probably the most Ted overall. Something to look at and consider.
 
Congratulations! I think you will be very pleased with your Prevost. I really love mine, I also really love Detroit Diesels!

Eventually I will put a 60 series in my coach. Nearly doubling the horsepower is always good.

Prevost support is also excellent. I called their service department last spring to order a couple of parts for a mirror. The guy on the phone in Quebec was really patient with my questions and gave a lot of great advice. He ended up saving me a bunch of money. I only found out later during a follow up call that I had been talking with one of the upper level VPs that had just happened to answer a ringing phone!

Oh, they also had a complete record of the coach from the day it left the factory.
 
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While I kinda like the idea of tandem drive on the bus, if it were possible, I don't think that's really the limiting factor of taking it off road. More likely, your approach and departure angles are terrible, your ground clearance compared to vehicle length and width is terrible, the bus is too wide, the underneath is too soft, the center of gravity is too high, your suspension travel is too low, the bus is too tall, the tires are completely wrong and it's just silly. If you want to go off road, add a unimog or surplus M939 to your fleet, and put a camper on the back. Just my 2 cents.

One of the counties I work with has a big RV they use as a mobile command post. And they also have a smaller 4x4 model because there are some parts of the county, even hard road, that the RV just won't go to. Too tall, too long for the roads, and possibly too heavy for some bridges.
 
Stickman said:
Congratulations! I think you will be very pleased with your Prevost. I really love mine, I also really love Detroit Diesels!

Eventually I will put a 60 series in my coach. Nearly doubling the horsepower is always good.

Prevost support is also excellent. I called their service department last spring to order a couple of parts for a mirror. The guy on the phone in Quebec was really patient with my questions and gave a lot of great advice. He ended up saving me a bunch of money. I only found out later during a follow up call that I had been talking with one of the upper level VPs that had just happened to answer a ringing phone!

Oh, they also had a complete record of the coach from the day it left the factory.
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That's good to hear. I've heard that Prevost has excellent support, and your experience seems to back that up. I'll have to get their phone number(s) on speed dial.

Albany Tom said:
While I kinda like the idea of tandem drive on the bus, if it were possible, I don't think that's really the limiting factor of taking it off road. More likely, your approach and departure angles are terrible, your ground clearance compared to vehicle length and width is terrible, the bus is too wide, the underneath is too soft, the center of gravity is too high, your suspension travel is too low, the bus is too tall, the tires are completely wrong and it's just silly. If you want to go off road, add a unimog or surplus M939 to your fleet, and put a camper on the back. Just my 2 cents.

One of the counties I work with has a big RV they use as a mobile command post. And they also have a smaller 4x4 model because there are some parts of the county, even hard road, that the RV just won't go to. Too tall, too long for the roads, and possibly too heavy for some bridges.
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I think you're digging too deeply into what I'm wanting to do with the bus. Some people have reported their Prevosts getting stuck on wet grass, even with level ground. We're not talking about going down rough forest roads, over rocks, things like that. If roads are muddy or snowy we don't go down them. We're not talking about going places that we use the Land Rover for.
 
Yesterday I finally was able to test drive the bus with the super singles in back and the bigger tires in the front over lunch. Roads around here are pretty good, but I tried to find construction areas and other places that would test out the ride improvements.

As expected, the ride was noticeably improved. I think the ride improvement in the rear was probably better than the front, which makes sense given that the super singles not only have less unsprung weight, but also reduce the sidewall stiffness (having half the sidewalls), so that's a double win. The bigger fronts have a higher unsprung weight (negative) but running lower air pressure and having a taller sidewall are positives. I also think that the tire construction of these fronts is softer than the previous ones, which is another positive.

The tires produce about a 5% overdrive, which lowers the engine RPM by around 100 at 70 MPH to roughly 1800. That's a better spot and doesn't seem to overly stress anything.

I didn't notice any decrease in handling or reduced stability, but the weather was good yesterday without significant crosswinds or rain. The drive tires on the back are a bit louder, but not enough to be bothersome. Overall, I think it's an improvement, but we'll see if the next owner wants them or would prefer the standard duals on the back. Both have their merits.

Obviously (now) I shouldn't have bothered with this, but it was still a fun exercise to learn something. I may benefit from them if I end up driving the bus and towing the trailer to go to the GS Trophy qualifier next week, but if the weather is good I'm going to ride.
 
Ted said:
Some people have reported their Prevosts getting stuck on wet grass, even with level ground.
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I used to have a single axle semi tractor with an open dif. Former beverage truck. It would get stuck if you parked it with one tire on the road and one on dry grass. That's actually what led me to find my beloved M915's. It'd be interesting to see if it's possible to retrofit a locker into your bus. That would go a long way.

What kind of gross weight are we taking about here?
 
Jim K said:
I used to have a single axle semi tractor with an open dif. Former beverage truck. It would get stuck if you parked it with one tire on the road and one on dry grass. That's actually what led me to find my beloved M915's. It'd be interesting to see if it's possible to retrofit a locker into your bus. That would go a long way.

What kind of gross weight are we taking about here?
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Exactly. I've owned a couple of 4x2 pickup trucks with open differentials (the 2004 Ram had an "anti-spin" diff which is essentially an open diff that is marketed as limited slip and doesn't actually work). They managed to get stuck in stupid conditions. Tire design helps, but still, a locker would be good if I could make that work.

Prevost grosses at around 54k lbs, essentially 2x that of the current bus. I've never weighed the current bus but I do plan to weigh the Prevost at some point.

It has 365s on the steer and tag axles (wider than the stock 315s), and 315s on the drives - I think 315/80/22.5s. Just looking at section width (I don't have a good way to calculate footprint with the weight on the tires) that comes out to about 65% more width for 2x the weight, looking at the 275s that were on this bus previously and not the new tires I put on.

One of the supposed benefits of super singles is that, even though you have less total section width, because that's wider it ends up doing better on loose terrain since the thinner the tire, the more the propensity for it to dig in rather than float on top.

Initial looking at the tag axle made it look like super singles couldn't fit there, but I need to look at it a bit more.
 
It never occurred to me to put Super Singles on.

I will say that Christian's MCI with Firestones rides more smoothly than my Prevost with Michelins. They both run the same size tires.
 
Stickman said:
It never occurred to me to put Super Singles on.

I will say that Christian's MCI with Firestones rides more smoothly than my Prevost with Michelins. They both run the same size tires.
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What's the weight difference between the two?

The super singles both reduce unsprung weight and also end up reducing the sidewall stiffness since you've only got 2 sidewalls instead of 4 (more to it than that, but rough equivalent).

What sizes tires do yours run? 11R22.5s?
 
12R22.5s

I wouldn't mind going to a 9" wide wheel and run 315/80R22.5s though, they have a little bit higher load rating I think.

The Prevost has a max weight of 40,000. I'd need to look up the MCI numbers, but it's pretty close to that. 42,000 maybe, I know it is about 2000 pounds heavier empty weight. 26,800 vs. 28,600.
 
Stickman said:
12R22.5s

I wouldn't mind going to a 9" wide wheel and run 315/80R22.5s though, they have a little bit higher load rating I think.

The Prevost has a max weight of 40,000. I'd need to look up the MCI numbers, but it's pretty close to that. 42,000 maybe, I know it is about 2000 pounds heavier empty weight. 26,800 vs. 28,600.
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315s vs. 12Rs should help the ride quality, especially with lowering the tier pressures to match the weights. If you put super singles on the drives then that should help ride quality further. On the XL2s the recommended upgrade is the "365 conversion" putting 365s on the front and tag, which I have. Supposedly this won't work on the older solid front axles like yours and needs the independent front suspension, but might work on the tags.

There is a lot to be said for having the same tire size all around, and having common tire sizes for ease of replacement with a flat. Staying in the lower 48 and populated areas I don't worry about it quite so much, but we'll probably want to carry odd-sized spares with us before doing an Alaska or remote Canada trip as we're planning on doing at some point in the future.
 
Ted said:
I think you're digging too deeply into what I'm wanting to do with the bus. Some people have reported their Prevosts getting stuck on wet grass, even with level ground. We're not talking about going down rough forest roads, over rocks, things like that. If roads are muddy or snowy we don't go down them. We're not talking about going places that we use the Land Rover for.
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Oh that's fair. I made a jump from 'modifying drive wheel' to 'turn into a range rover'. I have a 4x4 Nissan that's part time 4x4, so 99.9% of the time I'm driving it in 4x2 rear drive with an open diff, even in mixed snow/wet. It has traction control that actually works to keep a one wheel spin from getting it stuck. Nowhere near as good as the electric lock, not quite as good as a limited slip, but functional. No idea how complicated it might be to implement traction control on a bus...an air locker would probably be easier, guessing.
 
Video on the super singles:

 
I think this would be a better multi-axle drive option…much more “Ted.” Just pick up one of these and swap out the rear end.

keep the pick and shovel mounts, too. :D
1696600554080.jpeg
 
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