"There's no ATC in Phoenix right now ... "

Pilawt

Pilawt

Final Approach
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Pilawt
Smoke alarm forced evacuation of KPHX ATCT this morning. Local news says 46 inbound flights were diverted to other airports.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...-flights-diverted-after-fire-alarm/697939001/

LiveATC: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kphx/KPHX-Twr-Both-Sep-24-2017-1430Z.mp3
At about 24:15 into this clip, ground says to a Skywest flight, "We have a fire alarm in the tower -- you don't see any smoke comin' from anywhere, do you?"

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kphx/KPHX-Twr-Both-Sep-24-2017-1430Z.mp3
At about 25:20 a Frontier flight calls for pushback; another pilot tells him, "There's no ATC in Phoenix right now."
 
I dialed up phx ground once and the first thing I head was "we are evacuating the tower due to a fire alarm we will report when the tower reopens". It was funny listening to the airline guys trying to decide what to do with their fuel planning and whether or not to shut their engines down.
 
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kphx/KPHX-App-North-Final-Sep-24-2017-1430Z.mp3

At 24:00 in this clip, PHX APC cancels the previously-issued approach clearance of a Frontier flight inbound from Cleveland. He's vectored around a bit then put into a hold on the localizer east of PHX ("delay indefinite"). After three or four circuits the flight is diverted to nearby Gateway Airport, the former Williams AFB (KIWA). The somewhat distracted controller asks three times for his "fuel on board in minutes."

Screen Shot 2017-09-25 at 7.08.53 AM.png
 
Pilawt said:
At 24:00 in this clip, PHX APC cancels the previously-issued approach clearance of a Frontier flight inbound from Cleveland. He's vectored around a bit then put into a hold on the localizer east of PHX. After about four circuits the flight is diverted to nearby Gateway Airport, the former Williams AFB (KIWA). The somewhat distracted controller asks three times for his "fuel on board in minutes."
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Did they elect to divert or were they directed to do so? Why couldn't they land at KPHX if the only issue was the evacuated control tower?
 
roncachamp said:
Did they elect to divert or were they directed to do so? Why couldn't they land at KPHX if the only issue was the evacuated control tower?
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Maybe the city, county or whoever runs the airport closed it when they heard the Tower abandoned ship. Frontier dispatch could have told them to divert.
 
roncachamp said:
Did they elect to divert or were they directed to do so?
Click to expand...

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kphx/KPHX-App-North-Final-Sep-24-2017-1500Z.mp3

12:30
TRACON: “Roger Flight 1863, I think they’re gonna kick us all out of here, and we’re gonna give the airspace to enroute control, so I would suggest that Gateway’s your alternate, I can probably get you over there, it’s only about six miles off your left side.”

14:50
TRACON: “Frontier Flight 1863, the alarm is still going off, the tower’s evacuated and the TRACON is pretty much done as well … and uh … my instructions are I basically have to return the airspace to the enroute center. And I don’t know how long you’re gonna be sittin’ there in the hold. If I were in the seat I’d probably go to Gateway.”

#1863: “You have the identifier for Gateway … ?”

20:45
TRACON: “Roger Flight 1863, I’m gonna leave now, and when I get back in the building, if there’s a building to come back to, I will personally make an effort to make sure they don’t forget about you over at Gateway Airport and get you back over here as soon as we can.”


Why couldn't they land at KPHX if the only issue was the evacuated control tower?
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An Air Shuttle flight asked if they could go in w/o ATC, and the controller said, "The answer to your question is 'negative'."
 
Just a WAG ... the airport was closed to all traffic because the airport's fire department was dealing with the tower and thus wouldn't be available if something happened elsewhere on the airport ... ?
 
Does anyone know if Airport Management closed the airport? If so then that does it. Declaring an emergency aside, then ya better not be landing there. As far as ATC is concerned these aircraft were operating in accordance with an IFR clearance. It looks like the controllers got a few things done before running out the door screaming Fire, like calling up center screaming Fire, saying the airspace is yours and giving them a rundown of the traffic they gonna be dealing with in a few seconds. So now we have airplanes, on an IFR clearance, not only that but in Class B airspace. No one there to say "Cleared to land" (this was tower and approach wasn't it?) Watcha gonna do? Center ain't gonna just flip a switch and start chattin on the Tower and approach frequencies and keep the flow going. Your likely to get Center controllers running out of the room screaming "OMG we got the Bravo, run for your lives, wimmen and children first." @roncachamp, we get the point. ATC has no authority to open and close airports. ATC has no authority to 'approve' or 'disaprove' landing at or departing an airport. ATC's responsibility is to keep airplanes from bumping into each other while they are doing it and have the authority to issue instructions to airplanes to prevent those collisions.
 
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Remember when Austin had the floods so severe that the tower and approach equipment was all flooded, and there was no operating Tower or Approach; the airport operated with uncontrolled airport procedures, departing traffic receiving their IFR clearances by telephone from Houston Center.

It was funny to listen to - a British Airways 777 advising he is taxiing to runway 17 left, etc. It all seemed to work out pretty well, and when (as can happen) some guys popped up on frequency confused about how to get their clearances, other pilots readily volunteered the telephone number.

I know it isn't Phoenix, but Austin is a very busy class C, and they made it work.
 
It could have been possible for the airport to operate as an uncontrolled airport. That has happened before when a tower goes off the air for various circumstances. Pilawt may have been on to the answer too, ARFF on the airport may have been tied up with the fire, and did not have the resources available to provide additional coverage for commercial flights as required under Part 139.

Or Airport Operations pulled the plug and closed the airport as well, either way.
 
The slender, 150-foot-high ATCT at KLGB, then just a few months old, was evacuated after the Sylmar earthquake in February 1971. For the rest of the day controllers stood out on the ramp with a battery-operated transceiver.

The quake hit just before dawn, in heavy fog. There was only one controller on duty. Suddenly he was being tossed around the tower cab like a pair of sneakers in a spin dryer. All he could see outside through the fog was flashes of light from transformers going out. He wasted no time getting downstairs.
 
Thank you for calling Phoenix approach. All of the controllers are busy right now, but your call is important to us. Please stay on the line and your call will be answered in the order it was received. Have a great day and thank you for calling Phoenix approach.
 
Pilawt said:
The slender, 150-foot-high ATCT at KLGB, then just a few months old, was evacuated after the Sylmar earthquake in February 1971. For the rest of the day controllers stood out on the ramp with a battery-operated transceiver.

The quake hit just before dawn, in heavy fog. There was only one controller on duty. Suddenly he was being tossed around the tower cab like a pair of sneakers in a spin dryer. All he could see outside through the fog was flashes of light from transformers going out. He wasted no time getting downstairs.
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I'll betcha they was doing it from a point on the ramp more than 150 feet from the Tower. The story goes, and I think it's true, that the Tower went down in Anchorage back in 19 sixty whatever. Some controllers hit the stairs and started getting out. A couple of them stayed. When it went, the ones who stayed and rode it down lived. The others didn't make it.
 
Well ya know if ATC was privatized, this wouldn't have happened.


I kid, I kid :D
 
SCCutler said:
Remember when Austin had the floods so severe that the tower and approach equipment was all flooded, and there was no operating Tower or Approach; the airport operated with uncontrolled airport procedures, departing traffic receiving their IFR clearances by telephone from Houston Center.

It was funny to listen to - a British Airways 777 advising he is taxiing to runway 17 left, etc. It all seemed to work out pretty well, and when (as can happen) some guys popped up on frequency confused about how to get their clearances, other pilots readily volunteered the telephone number.

I know it isn't Phoenix, but Austin is a very busy class C, and they made it work.
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Yeah. Things like that can work very well once it's set up and everyone gets their 'rhythm.' When things go "now" with a sky full of planes it can be chaotic for a little while. The Cell phone has been the 'hero' more than once in recent years.
 
Pilawt said:
Just a WAG ... the airport was closed to all traffic because the airport's fire department was dealing with the tower and thus wouldn't be available if something happened elsewhere on the airport ... ?
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If that was the case the controller's answer should have been "negative, the airport is closed."
 
luvflyin said:
Does anyone know if Airport Management closed the airport? If so then that does it. Declaring an emergency aside, then ya better not be landing there. As far as ATC is concerned these aircraft were operating in accordance with an IFR clearance. It looks like the controllers got a few things done before running out the door screaming Fire, like calling up center screaming Fire, saying the airspace is yours and giving them a rundown of the traffic they gonna be dealing with in a few seconds. So now we have airplanes, on an IFR clearance, not only that but in Class B airspace. No one there to say "Cleared to land" (this was tower and approach wasn't it?) Watcha gonna do? Center ain't gonna just flip a switch and start chattin on the Tower and approach frequencies and keep the flow going. Your likely to get Center controllers running out of the room screaming "OMG we got the Bravo, run for your lives, wimmen and children first." @roncachamp, we get the point. ATC has no authority to open and close airports. ATC has no authority to 'approve' or 'disaprove' landing at or departing an airport. ATC's responsibility is to keep airplanes from bumping into each other while they are doing it and have the authority to issue instructions to airplanes to prevent those collisions.
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Assuming the airport hadn't been closed, it seems better to me to to allow an aircraft already cleared for approach to continue that approach and land than to divert to another airport. A bit less chaos that way.
 
roncachamp said:
Assuming the airport hadn't been closed, it seems better to me to to allow an aircraft already cleared for approach to continue that approach and land than to divert to another airport. A bit less chaos that way.
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Yeah. There's a case for that. Number one on the Approach anyway if it included the landing clearance. But then it could be argued that "you gave him the clearance so you should stay and watch the landing. It's an interesting discussion of the "rules." One thing I'd be willing to bet on though. If a plane gets cleared to land, the controller then says "see ya, I'm outta here" and something bad happens, then some F. Lee Bailey wanna be is gonna hook his thumbs under his suspenders and convince a box full of 12 'peers' that he done wrong. I don't think the cat in the long black robe with the big wood hammer is gonna vacate the verdict and the FAA gonna be gettin out the checkbook.
 
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Zeldman said:
Thank you for calling Phoenix approach. All of the controllers are busy right now, but your call is important to us. Please stay on the line and your call will be answered in the order it was received. Have a great day and thank you for calling Phoenix approach.
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And for the old timers among us:

"Please insert 25 cents for the next three minutes". :D
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. There's a case for that. Number one on the Approach anyway if it included the landing clearance. But then it could be argued that "you gave him the clearance so you should stay and watch the landing. It's an interesting discussion of the "rules." One thing I'd be willing to bet on though. If a plane gets cleared to land, the controller then says "see ya, I'm outta here" then some F. Lee Bailey wanna be is gonna hook his thumbs under his suspenders and convince a box full of 12 'peers' that he done wrong. I don't think the cat in the long black robe with the big wood hammer is gonna vacate the verdict and the FAA gonna be gettin out the checkbook.
Click to expand...

Many aircraft are cleared for approaches every day where ATC cannot watch the landing. A landing clearance is only required at an airport with an operational control tower, KPHX ceased to be one when the tower was evacuated.
 
roncachamp said:
Many aircraft are cleared for approaches every day where ATC cannot watch the landing. A landing clearance is only required at an airport with an operational control tower, KPHX ceased to be one when the tower was evacuated.
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That is true. Cleared for the Approach, Tower's closed. Good to go. Only thing left is getting the cancellation. That'd be easy.
 
Airline pilots train frequently in the sim, responding to mishaps like smoke, just as they would in real life.

Do controllers train similarly?
 
Bunch of sissies! Nick "The Zone" Falzone would've stuck it out until all the aircraft were on the ground safely.;)
 
Zeldman said:
Thank you for calling Phoenix approach. All of the controllers are busy right now, but your call is important to us. Please stay on the line and your call will be answered in the order it was received. Have a great day and thank you for calling Phoenix approach.
Click to expand...

You forgot the menu at the beginning, press 1 press 2 etc etc....
 
mscard88 said:
You forgot the menu at the beginning, press 1 press 2 etc etc....
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Para Inglés, por favor, presione 1.

Si no habla español, presione 2.

Or possibly....

如果你不說西班牙語，請按2。

I hope my long ago Spanish is close to correct.
 
NoHeat said:
Airline pilots train frequently in the sim, responding to mishaps like smoke, just as they would in real life.

Do controllers train similarly?
Click to expand...

Yes they do. I walked up the stairs to tour the tower cab at KBDR (a Class D airport) and once there, I was informed that a fire drill had been called and everyone had to go down to the parking lot and set up Comms with large portable equipment.

-Skip
 
Air Shuttle 5810 (a CRJ arriving from Long Beach): "Just curious ... is there any way they can let us land and sit on the ramp there?"

APC: "Ah, Shuttle 5810, there's a lot of resources workin' the control tower, let me check, I don't think that's possible, let me check, stand by." [a minute later] "Air Shuttle 5810, the answer to your question is 'negative'."

5810 got diverted to its alternate, Tucson.

Screen Shot 2017-09-25 at 7.33.27 PM.png
 
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