The US needs ‘weapons in space’

I thought we had treaties preventing that. Or have those treaties expired?
 
I think the prohibition basically has been ignored for decades. I worked the "Brilliant Pebbles" concept in the '80s; thousands of space interceptors intended to knock out ICBMs. Not very much concern about treaty realities, there.
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Most of the kill mechanisms I've worked on have been kinetic...no warhead, just kamikaze the threat. The US air-launched ASAT was like that, and I worked several studies where it was converted to ground launch or added to a space "escort" carrier intended to fly near our assets and take out anything coming our way.

As a space professional, a big concern is how well a weapon system might age, in space. It's not a nice environment. How does one know if a given system is going to be operational five or ten years after insertion into orbit? Stuff like coolant systems (often required for laser and optical systems) tend to degrade over time.

Operational considerations will drive you nuts, too. Brilliant Pebbles was one example. Bad guys launch a partial strike, BP is deployed to stop it. But, then, you've created a big hole in your coverage that the bad guy can shoot a second launch through.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Must... resist... political discourse... Must... resist...

Then please don't. It's not meant to be political but just a curiosity as to what is known of what's' being done. The above post by @wanttaja is thought provoking when consideration is given to the type of weapons that would work in such a harsh environment and, as he pointed out, how well they would hold up over time.
 
The above post by @wanttaja is thought provoking when consideration is given to the type of weapons that would work in such a harsh environment and, as he pointed out, how well they would hold up over time.
I agree and am very pleased that @wanttaja was able to provide such great insight free of any political bent.
 
IIRC, almost all of the space treaties involve putting things that go boom. Kinetic energy weapons, as well as directed energy weapons (e.g. lasers) may fall outside the bounds of the prohibited activity.

In any case, space is going the same way as the early aviators in WWI. At first, friendly waves when you see a vehicle of the opposing country in flight, then some SOB has to start carrying a rifle....

Spacecraft, for the most part, are vulnerable. The mass ratio required to put things in orbit is pretty steep, so what's up there is kinda light weight. For the most part, they don't have much ability to dodge. For low-Earth orbit (LEO) satellites, the operators don't normally have real-time control. It's certainly possible, but the sponsor has to be willing to rent full-time comm coverage. Besides, for the most part, we don't have a real-time view of the space around our vehicles. Spacecraft in Geostationary Orbits (GEO) are easier to monitor full time, and if you track the ascent of an ASAT, you've got some chance.

But...they still don't have that much capability to dodge. In any case, forcing the satellite to USE its capability to dodge uses fuel. You might get a "mission kill" by the target using up fuel trying to stay clear. Shielding/armor is really weight intensive. Looked at a "shield satellite" to position itself in the line of fire to protect an on-orbit asset, but you have the problem of "spalling" (object hitting the shield knocks debris off from the other side that hit the protected satellite anyway). One of the studies I did involved the Russian nuclear anti-satellite system; we determined we had a 20 nm keepout range; any closer, and there was a good chance of picking up some fragments. We actually looked at using a Mauser 20mm autoloading cannon to try destroy the incoming ASAT. Studied some unusual orbits to minimize the chance the bad guys could lock on long enough to track us. Even looked into deployable decoys.

Space combat is the opposite of ground combat. On the ground, the defender always has the advantage...he can bunker up and hunker down, forcing the attacker to cross well-protected fields of fire and expend his effort maneuvering. In space, you've got a fat, slow, large expensive target right out in the open, in highly predictable orbits, complex vehicles designed for a ten-year lifetime, being faced down by cheap "smart rocks" that only have to operate for only a few hours and thus get by with very simple systems. They also can be launched directly into an intercept trajectory.

Ron Wanttaja
 
The US air-launched ASAT was like that,

I have wondered whatever happened to ASAT. It's footnotes read like some other initially successful open programs that suddenly went dark and transitioned to the program/compartmented level, continued to exist, and even become operational.

;)

In all seriousness, I'd be really interested to know how that thing, in test, was cued. This is 1980s, so the best we had was maybe Dolly/Link4 and some ground/3rd party guidance. I know the F-15 radar wasn't the source at least. Pretty interesting stuff
 
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I think the prohibition basically has been ignored for decades. I worked the "Brilliant Pebbles" concept in the '80s; thousands of space interceptors intended to knock out ICBMs. Not very much concern about treaty realities, there.
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Most of the kill mechanisms I've worked on have been kinetic...no warhead, just kamikaze the threat. The US air-launched ASAT was like that, and I worked several studies where it was converted to ground launch or added to a space "escort" carrier intended to fly near our assets and take out anything coming our way.

As a space professional, a big concern is how well a weapon system might age, in space. It's not a nice environment. How does one know if a given system is going to be operational five or ten years after insertion into orbit? Stuff like coolant systems (often required for laser and optical systems) tend to degrade over time.

Operational considerations will drive you nuts, too. Brilliant Pebbles was one example. Bad guys launch a partial strike, BP is deployed to stop it. But, then, you've created a big hole in your coverage that the bad guy can shoot a second launch through.

Ron Wanttaja
does the “ kill mechanism “ burn up on the way down, so if it misses it doesn’t through my roof?

[multiquote failure]

If there are enforceable treaties who would enforce them? I doubt anyone is going to a shooting war over a violation, at least not for many years, and China probably wouldn’t put sanctions on one of their largest customers.

Signed,

All I know about this is from a James Bond movie
 
Too much debris in orbit, from a few kills, could eventually kill everything in orbit.
AKA "The Kessler Syndrome"

Years ago I read a short story on the topic, that had Ed White's lost glove from his EVA as the initiator. After the entire LEO space becomes unusable, a couple guys propose a "sweeper-upper" to clean things up. I lost the link and can't find the story anymore, but if anyone can locate it based on my notes, let me know.
 
I have wondered whatever happened to ASAT. It's footnotes read like some other initially successful open programs that suddenly went dark and transitioned to the program/compartmented level, continued to exist, and even become operational.
Ha! Been there, done that. Worked one study that seemed to have some promise, but the Government didn't fund a follow-on. About five years later, got briefed into a new compartment where, lo and behold, this was being actively worked. Last ~25 years of my employment was in that zone, and a fun time it was.

In all seriousness, I'd be really interested to know how that thing [ASAT], in test, was cued. This is 1980s, so the best we had was maybe Dolly/Link4 and some ground/3rd party guidance. I know the F-15 radar wasn't the source at least. Pretty interesting stuff
Don't recall myself; was still in the young "Hey, cool airplane" phase. Tom Clancy's "Red Storm Rising" included some air-launched ASAT work, it probably had at least some speculation there. The one and only operational test was performed against a non-maneuvering target, which would have meant that a precise flight path for the launcher aircraft could be computed well in advance. ISTR the target was an older scientific satellite that was, actually, still in use. Some P.O'd scientists after the tests.

The Vought Minature Homing Vehicle was about the size of a hatbox (one that could carry a stovepipe hat) and IIRC, had a blow-down type infrared detector in the middle. IR works well in an application like this, as the targets are generally hot against a cold background. The guidance method would warm the cockles of any pilot who has had a near mid-air collision; the MHV used its side thrusters to position the vehicle so that the target remained at a constant bearing.

After the test, the Navy got interested in the system (would be nice to knock out the Soviet radar ocean reconnaissance satellites before they discovered the fleet's location). One of our studies was to use an F-14 to carry the ASAT system. There was (nominally) room for it, but due to the carrier-based nature of the F-14, the long stroke of the landing gear would have slammed the ASAT into the deck if they'd had to recover without launching.

Our artist in this study was a bit of a wag, he decided that Boeing should be carrying this system on one of its OWN aircraft...
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Ron Wanttaja
 
As a space professional, a big concern is how well a weapon system might age, in space. It's not a nice environment. How does one know if a given system is going to be operational five or ten years after insertion into orbit? Stuff like coolant systems (often required for laser and optical systems) tend to degrade over time.
And yet the Voyager spacecraft are still operational after 48 years in space. Have we lost our touch?
 
A Starship should serve the purpose, just need to get it to orbit with enough fuel and oxidizer still on board

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We already got them in space as do they. The coming war will begin in space ending all our beloved flying endeavors in hours, forever. This one ain't gonna be like a video game Lads Ex- DOD
 
And yet the Voyager spacecraft are still operational after 48 years in space. Have we lost our touch?

Compared to the Earth oribit environment, I believe the space environment beyond the PLANET Pluto has different cooling requirements and considerably less variation wrt the thermal environment.
 
And yet the Voyager spacecraft are still operational after 48 years in space. Have we lost our touch?
One program I worked on was designed for an eighteen-month life; it was still going and doing operational missions ten years later.

One way it worked was to design the EPS (electrical power subsystem) to fail in such a way that the system would keep charging power to the batteries, and to select batteries that were very tolerant of overcharging. In our case, they were COTS C-cells (from Sanyo) that were used normally used in RC cars.

There's the difference in simplicity, as well. A simple vehicle just has to be able to point its antenna (which might have a very wide beam) in the direction it needs to transmit (ours were omnidirectional) and have enough oomph left to get a signal back home.

A "combat" satellite is in the different condition. Not only would it be far more complex, there's the issue of ensuring its operational when you actually need it. Voyager just sails off into the cosmos squirting data back home; a Space Combat vehicle has to not only respond to ground commands, but acquire targets and power whatever it is they're shootin' with. PLUS, of course, it's important that the vehicle remain 100% operational. People will be sad when Voyager quits transmitting, but if WWIII comes a'calling, you want to be sure it's ready to go.

(Speaking of sadness when a space vehicle dies, there's a great documentary about the Mars Opportunity rover called, "Good Night, Oppy." It's one of the few shows that reflect how emotionally attached we get to our vehicles. It was on Prime, probably still there. A second good depiction of the spacecraft-construction biz was the episode in "From the Earth to the Moon" depicting the design and construction of the Lunar Module. Every space engineers feels a little tug when the baby leaves for the launch site. Here's one of mine...)
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(what, you thought I only worked on Battlestar Galactica-sized spacecraft?)

Anyway, it's actually not a bad speculation that modern spacecraft don't last as long as the older ones. More and more microprocessors, carrying more and more gates, etc., are being used in modern spacecraft. These often aren't as tolerant of radiation in space. The old program I referred to used chips from early cell phones; we used a test facility to bombard them with radiation to see how they'd take it. Twenty years later, another small-satellite program, and we were doing the same thing and irradiating the heck out of them to see how they'd take it. Dunno the long term effect (was debriefed when I was retired) but they'd been working a half-decade or so at the time I left.

Though they did occasionally have glitches in the South Atlantic Anomaly....
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In contrast, for my last program, we performed no radiation testing at all. But then, they were test vehicles only needing to be operational for two weeks or so. Microsats, about the size of half a carton of saltine crackers.

Ron Wanttaja
 
We already got them in space as do they. The coming war will begin in space ending all our beloved flying endeavors in hours, forever. This one ain't gonna be like a video game Lads Ex- DOD
Toward the end of my career, I was loaned out to an aircraft program developing equipment for a critical wartime mission. The program ended when the Service sponsor decided to just package the data and sent it back to the CONUS for processing, rather than making the data directly available to the theater forces. I screamed loud and long about that; the satellite assets they were going to use were NOT going to survive more than a few hours after the start of a major war. I got invited to return to my old job....

Ron Wanttaja
 
In all seriousness, I'd be really interested to know how that thing, in test, was cued. This is 1980s, so the best we had was maybe Dolly/Link4 and some ground/3rd party guidance. I know the F-15 radar wasn't the source at least. Pretty interesting stuff
It is interesting to read about other contemporary efforts like the homing overlay experiment and delta 180.

GeorgeC,
handing it over
 
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