The good old days of IFR

brien23

brien23

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Brien
Before GPS , mode "C", lots of uncontroled airspace controlers that did not have an attitude. When I started the FAA was new and the FAR's all of them were in the back of most flight instruction handbooks. Things have not changed that much people are still ground looping planes, stall spin death, continued VFR into IFR death, and all the rules and changes have done little to change that. Seems like someone with a C-150 that sticks a wing tip into a Class "B" airspace indangered everyone within all the airspace wile radar centers go offline with no com or controlers let their kids play or take naps on duty, and no danger was ever done to the system. The system has problems and those in charge seem to be replaced with like types I guess they could never get to that point if they the up and comming thought other than those they are replaceing. Good luck to all of you, hope it works out for you as I rember the good old days.:rofl:
 
Are you a troll?

What's an uncontrolled airspace controller?

And do you really believe there were over 20,000 IFR flights a day "in the good ol' days?"
 
MAKG1 said:
What's an uncontrolled airspace controller?
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Probably just poor spelling and punctuation. I think he meant, "Before GPS, Mode C, lots of uncontrolled airspace, and controllers that did not have an attitude."
 
highways were a lot safer back when we got along by horse and buggy too

You can keep your needle interpretations and stopwatches… I will take synthetic vision any day
 
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MAKG1 said:
Are you a troll?

What's an uncontrolled airspace controller?

And do you really believe there were over 20,000 IFR flights a day "in the good ol' days?"
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I doubt Low Alt IFR enroute that GA aircraft fly are much of that 20K and Yes their are troll's above 18,000'.
 
JimG. said:
highways were a lot safer back when we got along by horse and buggy too
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Na man I played that game... you had to hunt for your food, you could die fording the river or from getting dysentery
 
JimG. said:
highways were a lot safer back when we got along by horse and buggy too

You can keep your needle interpretations and stopwatches… I will take synthetic vision any day
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Yep, if Elmer Sperry and Jimmy Doolittle were alive today, they would look at SVT and the stuff they came up with and say "**** this old stuff, give me what you've got, that stuff is incredible!"
 
Henning said:
Yep, if Elmer Sperry and Jimmy Doolittle were alive today, they would look at SVT and the stuff they came up with and say "**** this old stuff, give me what you've got, that stuff is incredible!"
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Yep, you're right. They shure would.
But I read the OPs meanderings of a time long gone, is the change in attitude.
Controllers (and everyone in the aviation world) had an attitude of helping. An attitude of enjoying their work.
But it wasn't so crowded then. Or routine. Or dull.

...different world then.
 
nosehair said:
Yep, you're right. They shure would.
But I read the OPs meanderings of a time long gone, is the change in attitude.
Controllers (and everyone in the aviation world) had an attitude of helping. An attitude of enjoying their work.
But it wasn't so crowded then. Or routine. Or dull.

...different world then.
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I don't run across unhelpful controllers. I can't even recall getting attitude, that includes from Chicago. :dunno:
 
I would posit that "attitude" and "unhelpful" are completely different things.

As workloads and density go up, "attitude" is just another flavor of communication. But "unhelpful" is dereliction of duty.

I find ATC helpful in practically all situations. Bad attitude mainly comes from bored controllers at slow locations, presumably with poor management. Less than helpful bad attitude types don't seem to be able to cope at busier locations.
 
Henning said:
I'm talking across 20 years and 2500hrs though, might be a small sampling, but it covers the whole country. I always kinda wonder about people who have problems with ATC.:dunno:
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Other than the months following the Cerritos California midair, and then transportation Sec. Elizabeth Dole making the statement that “the FAA was going to make an example out of small airplane pilots”…

I don't recall having a problem with controllers.

Hardest ones to please in my experience were in Las Vegas Nevada.

I think all the senior guys who want to get out of New York windup in Las Vegas
 
I haven't had a bad experience in my very limited time but I have heard atc get on to people. Usually it's pilots not paying attention to the radio calls. Im sure I will eventually catch a controller who has had a bad day...
 
rbridges said:
I haven't had a bad experience in my very limited time but I have heard atc get on to people. Usually it's pilots not paying attention to the radio calls. Im sure I will eventually catch a controller who has had a bad day...
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Yep.

If I'm flying, I'm having a good day. I try to remember that ATC is at work and anyone can have a bad day.
 
In twentysome years I've encountered just a few controllers with attitude. It's funny how one small comment can ruin a pilot's day. 99% of the time though they're incredibly friendly. I still recall the afternoon after passing my PP checkride and taking dad up as my first passenger. The tower knew it too, and just after landing he came back over the radio with "nice landing". No doubt it slipped from the controller's mind quickly, but it's something I'll always remember.
 
Once upon a time in the not so distance past, there was a female controller at NUW that when she made her first call over the freq, you would hear every one on FF cancel rather than talk to her.

They are out there.
 
Gerhardt said:
In twentysome years I've encountered just a few controllers with attitude. It's funny how one small comment can ruin a pilot's day. 99% of the time though they're incredibly friendly. I still recall the afternoon after passing my PP checkride and taking dad up as my first passenger. The tower knew it too, and just after landing he came back over the radio with "nice landing". No doubt it slipped from the controller's mind quickly, but it's something I'll always remember.
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Nice!

I was just thinking that it would have been nice to say something beyond "thanks for the help" to the Raleigh controller that pulled my ass out of some hurricane Sandy weather and got me home.

Not long after getting my PP, I was flying into KHPN to pick up my Dad for his first flight. However I missed a call and otherwise showed myself to barely be up to the task. A controller built me a new arsehole before letting me get in. I was so shaken I locked the keys in the plane. "Embarrassment" doesn't quite cover the sight of an A&P using a coat hangar to break in the plane parked right in front of the pre-2001 airline ramp at White Plains.
 
When I used to fly turboprops, and especially when flying into large, hub airports, I thought controllers were the lowest form of life - they were always turning me in the wrong direction, descending me into the Wichita flack and turbulence, ice, holding, delay-vectoring, etc,. it was not unlike the relationship between Wily Coyote, (me) and that sheepdog. For the last 10,000hrs., flying jets, it's all been roses. Even in Chicago.
 
Henning said:
I don't run across unhelpful controllers. I can't even recall getting attitude, that includes from Chicago. :dunno:
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Agreed. I flew about 200 hours in the last year and about 250 in the previous year, 80% IFR. I can't recall any controllers being rude or unhelpful with me -- and that's pretty much anywhere from the East Coast to Arizona.

I have however heard controllers get short with a few others -- and, in my opinion, they had it coming. i.e. having to call their n-number 4-5 times before they respond, give a command like "N1234 turn left 270" and get a response like "roger, we're turning" [without a n-number, turn direction, heading], people popping up on a busy center frequency and using it like a FSS -- fling IFR flight plans with the whole 9-yards, souls on board, fuel, equipment type, saying "direct Atlanta", instead of giving a specific airport, etc... Only in those cases have I heard controllers get short... And I'm kind of glad they did.

Did hear a DFW approach area controller call to an IFR Cessna one night, "do you know what you are doing?" after he muffed up several commands...

The most "unhelpful" event I personally could think of was coming out of New York City a while back. There was a 1000 OVC with SkewTs suggesting tops were 7000. I filed for 8000 and was giving 6000. After 30 mins in IMC, I request 8000 was was simply told "unable", with no more explanation. 60 mins later, another request. "Unable". Nearly 90 mins later and now near western Penn, I was allowed to climb out of IMC. But that's not necessarily the controllers being unhelpful than it was a very saturated airspace with few places to put all the planes.

Finally -- in the rare and unlikely event they get really rude, ask their name (and tell them speak slowly so the ATC recorders get it down right), their supervisors name, and a number to call -- and follow-up. They'll listen.
 
Bill Watson said:
Nice!

I was just thinking that it would have been nice to say something beyond "thanks for the help" to the Raleigh controller that pulled my ass out of some hurricane Sandy weather and got me home.

Not long after getting my PP, I was flying into KHPN to pick up my Dad for his first flight. However I missed a call and otherwise showed myself to barely be up to the task. A controller built me a new arsehole before letting me get in. I was so shaken I locked the keys in the plane. "Embarrassment" doesn't quite cover the sight of an A&P using a coat hangar to break in the plane parked right in front of the pre-2001 airline ramp at White Plains.
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I was flying back West from WV to Arkansas last year when Hurricane [Forget the name] was dying out and moving up near OH. The storm had broken down into bands of storms like fan blades. I flew between two bands of storms on the East side, through the center, and out between two bands on the other side -- and never felt a bump.

Anyway, the movement of the bands were causing my filed flight path to inch further north to the point it eventually it took me right through Cincinatti. At the time, there were strong storms just South of the international airport and my exit to the West was starting to close-up. The controller undoubtedly could see the same thing as he said out-loud something like "you've got to get through while you can ", and slowed/altered/extended 4-5 commercial flights coming into Cincinatti so we could make it through the only clear area (the approach area north of the field) before things got too tight / too unsafe to make the closing hole just to the West.

Won't ever forget it / still can't believe they did it for us.

As is, we slipped through safely. I continued to watch on XM as the hole closed up later. A bunch of vectoring up and around the approach path of the airport would have meant an unexpected hotel or nap on an FBO couch in Ohio. Thanks to the controller; however, we slept in our own bed that night.
 
I've had far more good experiences with controllers than bad. I had a new instrument student that had inherited a really bad opinion of controllers in general based on comments she had heard from her previous instructor. I told her in 30+ years I had very few bad experiences and related some of the extraordinarily helpful controllers I have encountered. Over the course of getting her instrumented rated, with lots of first-hand experience with them, her attitude changed.
 
I find most controllers very friendly and helpful. I try to remember they are just at work, doing their job.
 
ive found that almost all the controllers ive talked to have been really nice and helpful. which is what i would infer all controllers to be like. that being said, if you enter the wrong downwind or don't fly a correct heading or assigned altitude of course they are going to grill you because they are in charge of separating aircraft. almost all of the angry controllers ive heard were mad because the pilot made a mistake
 
I log aroun 700 hours a year and 99% of that is IFR. Put me in the camp that finds controllers extremely helpful. I can count on one hand the number of times a controller has ticked me off with their attitude.
 
Captain said:
I log aroun 700 hours a year and 99% of that is IFR. Put me in the camp that finds controllers extremely helpful. I can count on one hand the number of times a controller has ticked me off with their attitude.
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Did you call them a jerk? :lol:
 
Knock on wood I haven't had a stuck mic yet...
 
denverpilot said:
You sure about that? Per capita/number of users?

Think you'll find that statement to be incorrect.
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I'd be willing to bet there were fewer deaths per 100,000 miles driven back in horse and buggy days. I'm not sure how you could parse it to make the buggy more dangerous.
 
Captain said:
I'd be willing to bet there were fewer deaths per 100,000 miles driven back in horse and buggy days. I'm not sure how you could parse it to make the buggy more dangerous.
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Wooden wheels, poor or no roads, "vehicles" vunlerable to panic, no safety standards for anything, and so on. Your supposition is very far from obvious; you seem to have assumed that death at 25 MPH is impossible. The truth is that long distance riders such as migrants and mail carriers were risking their lives. These days, we expect to be able to travel from Missouri to California without dying. Before the railroad, there was no such expectation.
 
I have never had ATC be nasty to me. Give me wrong directions, and occasionally bad information yeah, nasty, mean or unprofessional no. Short and to the point yeah. I do about 150 to 200 hrs a year, about 30% IFR, and have made more than my fair share of stupid amateur weekend warrior pilot radio mistakes(do not even ask about my trip to VRB two weeks ago), and even with that they have been always professional, and helpful. Now occasionally the tower personel have come close to being nasty, but even then did not cross the line. So put me in the column of ATC is nice.
 
denverpilot said:
You sure about that? Per capita/number of users?

Think you'll find that statement to be incorrect.
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Must have wild Indians and highwaymen figured into your statistics…



However… I will put you down in the needle and stopwatch group:D
 
Captain said:
I'd be willing to bet there were fewer deaths per 100,000 miles driven back in horse and buggy days. I'm not sure how you could parse it to make the buggy more dangerous.
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Adjust for average speed after you adjust for number of vehicles. Bet you'll find it's almost identical.

I never claimed the buggy was more dangerous. Please point out where I said that.

Why? People tend to be as stupid in each generation as in the previous. The bell curve rarely shifts.
 
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