The emergency/situation thread

No emergencies but, I have had total engine failure three times and partial engine failure another time. Weather diversions don't even count. After RotoAndWing, I am embarrassed to even mention this.
Oh, I forgot. Had a heater in a P Navajo runaway one time. Cabin full of smoke, passengers freaking out. That one was exciting. Hair and nostrils full of residue from smoke. Anyway, capped off fuel line to heater and flew plane home the next morning. Had to bring a second plane down for the passengers.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
What was the autopilot issue? You're supposed to be able to overcome the servos if they're activated.



Curious - was there a reason why you decided to shut down the engine vs. run it naturally aspirated?
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It was my fault (operator error.) Basically this is what happened:

1. Took off from the home drone, established course, engaged the autopilot in Nav mode - Autocontrol III.

2. What's that noise? Crap - forgot to secure the upper latch on the door.

3. PA28 doors are almost impossible to latch in the air if you forget. The POH recommends closing all internal vents and putting the plane in a right forward slip to put aerodynamic forces against the door to assist in its closing. I tried that and quite couldn't get it to work.

4. New problem - in the course of maneuvering, something appeared to have gotten jammed in the ailerons. They are being forced to the left by something. Feels like maybe the cable is hung up on something. I force the ailerons to almost but not quite neutral, but the force is so great I don't want to risk breaking anything so I don't try to shove them any harder.

5. Call the tower for a precautionary (rudder only steering) and ask if I can have the runway that happens to be lined up with me. They say okay. Do a wide, sweeping turn, and do a straight in to the aligned runway and land. Not pretty but nothing got bent.

6. Taxi to parking, and shut the power off when I reach the movement area. Whoa!! The ailerons are free again! WTF???

I forgot to disengage the autopilot in the course of maneuvering to try to get the door latched, and it failed to disengage itself once I was off the set course. Although I don't think an Autocontrol III has an an auto disengage feature. Plus the forces on the yoke were abnormally strong for an errant autopilot, so I didn't suspect that was the cause. I thought something was physically jammed in the rigging somewhere.
 
Luckily, no real emergencies. I did have a VFR into IMC at night, but I was on autopilot already in a descent to get below the clouds when I got into them. Just can't see them at night, so I misjudged the descent rate required to get below them in time.

Then there was the magneto that failed on the start of 1000 mile cross-country. We landed, tried to diagnose, talked to the mechanic via phone, and returned to base, keeping the nearest airport always up on the GPS.

Then there was the time that I showed zero airspeed over the middle of Lake Erie. No big deal, just went on to Hartford and landed there.

And then one time I lost GPS on an FR night flight from Florida to Chicago. That time, I declared the loss because I was no longer /G, trying to avoid the clouds after I picked up trace ice in one of them, and troubleshot the problem. I was eventually able to restore the GPS.

Gear doors wouldn't close on the 210. Did a low pass over Gaston's so those on the ground could confirm. They came up after a few tries.
 
Is taking off with one mag inoperative (I'm not 100% clear from the story if you did) legal?
 
I have had a bunch of small things happen... nothing big, yet. Commensurate with experience, perhaps, as you can tell by reading from folks who have flown professionally for many years.

Here is one that was interesting to me... FL190 over the northern rockies in a twin turboprop. Paying passengers in the back. One engine bleed deferred. Bleed air is used for pressuzation and to heat or cool the cabin among other things. The redundancy offered allowed a normal aircraft to operate on one bleed up to the aircraft's maximum altitude. Usually no issue. It was cold, so cold that day, and the plane just could not stay warm on one bleed. The first half of the trip was fine, but cold. Aircraft pressurized normally. All pressurization warning systems tested OK.

About half way back on the return trip I felt a tad hypoxic. Glanced at the cabin altimeter - 13,000'.... where was the cabin altitude warning light? The light tested OK there in flight, as it did on the ground at start-up, but the warning system, too, had failed. After some brief looks of disbelief (mutual hypoxia between both crew members) we donned crew oxygen and got an immediate descent (terrain permitted it, thankfully), and so decided not to declare, or to blow the 'rubber jungle' in the back. Ran appropriate checklists, which did not help. The airplane would hold about a 1000' difference (in other words, cabin of 10K at 11K). Once below 10K oxygen came off. Continue to destination as planned.

Lessons learned: Keep everything in your scan. Its easy to omit certain systems if they're out of the way, as the cabin altimeter/differential gauge was. Warning systems (a light and master warning should have gone off at 10K cabin altitude) fail, too.

Knowledge of your personal symptoms of hypoxia is a good thing, something I can attribute to some questionable (but legal) GA flying I had done without oxygen in the past. Nothing bad came of me flying a piston single at 12K without oxygen, but after a few times I knew it was not a good idea. In unpressurized GA flying I now use O2 for any length of time above 10K. It also made me appreciate taking the altitude chamber ride several years ago.
 
While flying: forgot to secure the oil fill cap on a BE33 leaving AirVenture. Diverted to FLD to fix user error issue.

While controlling: dual engine flameout of a LJ60 attempting to climb above RVSM airspace, numerous medical and mechanical emergencies, and a BE58 that lost all instruments in IMC talked given a no-gyro vector to Lafayette where he collapsed the gear. Also had a 737 (airline omitted) that squawked 7500 in lieu of 7600, then affirmed a response. NORAD loved that one. :yikes:

Everyone lived.
 
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I was on an approach to Love Field in Dallas Texas on base leg about to turn final when all the electrical power went dead. I was between two Southwest Airline planes for landing. I turned on Final, grabbed my backup hand held radio and contacted the tower. They cleared me to land.
 
RotorAndWing said:
5 engine failures ( 2 SEL, 2 MEL, 1 turbojet) precautionary engine shutdown BE99, precautionary engine shutdown B727
Hydraulic failures B727, busted windshield B-727, hydraulic failures A320,
Bird strikes (numerous) lightening strikes (numerous) bird strike main rotor Hughes 500

1 minimum fuel landing B727, 2 cargo fire warnings B727
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Oh wow. Who did you fly 727's for?
 
tiger said:
Is taking off with one mag inoperative (I'm not 100% clear from the story if you did) legal?
Click to expand...

All we knew was that it was running a little rougher than normal. We didn't know it was a bad mag until the mechanic looked at it at home base. IIRC, that Arrow had two sets of independent mags, at least that's what I recall being told. It was the old AOPA Ultimate Arrow prize plane, so you might be able to find the article online somewhere. That trip we ended up leaving the instructor behind and going out commercial to meet up with our friends, coming back with them in the 310.
 
This is pretty minor compared to some of the other stuff in this thread, but...

On my 2nd solo cross-country trip my attitude indicator failed. Funny thing is I texted my instructor "I have a problem" and a picture of the failed indicator. He called me shortly after and we had a strained conversation over the engine basically amounting to it's not big deal, finish the flight and get it looked at when you get home. I didn't notice until I landed that the picture didn't go through, I probably gave him a heart attack.

But it wasn't a big deal, I just finished my trip without the attitude indicator. He was right, I didn't really need it on a VFR flight anyway.
 
gprellwitz said:
All we knew was that it was running a little rougher than normal. We didn't know it was a bad mag until the mechanic looked at it at home base. IIRC, that Arrow had two sets of independent mags, at least that's what I recall being told. It was the old AOPA Ultimate Arrow prize plane, so you might be able to find the article online somewhere. That trip we ended up leaving the instructor behind and going out commercial to meet up with our friends, coming back with them in the 310.
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Ah, gotcha - the way I read it you landed, figured out a mag was dead, then set off for home. :)

It has / had two mags with timing controlled electronically by a LASAR system, according to AOPA. Googling LASAR Ignition suggests these were not trouble-free.

AOPA claimed that in 1997 that airplane would do 140ktas at 65% power. Not bad!
 
Ted DuPuis said:
What was the autopilot issue? You're supposed to be able to overcome the servos if they're activated.



Curious - was there a reason why you decided to shut down the engine vs. run it naturally aspirated?
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When the engine failed, I did not know that it had lost boost....only that it had failed. The plumbing problem was discovered on the ground, of course. I mulled over a re-start but didn't like the idea of an unknown failure possibly spraying fuel on hot manifolds.

Bob
 
Good discussion. Mine is minor compared to a lot I've read so far. My handheld GPS went down, VFR over unfamiliar area, and if I hadn't been following along on my sectional I would have been lost for sure.
 
Blew two cylinders on left engine going in to Chicago. But the remaining 4 jugs were still making some power, so I opted to continue to Palwaukee. I didn't know at the time that it had blown two jugs, it ran really rough for about 4 minutes, but still made some power so I opted out of shutting down. It had chewed up the valves, the rings, the plugs and blown everything overboard. Surprised the jugs were still intact. The oil looked like chrome paint.

Couple of years later left engine gave me zero oil pressure over the NM desert. No airports close, so it was a tense 15mins to get to closest. It was the most deserted airfield ever - nothing there. Couldn't replicate the problem after shutting down and starting up, so I decided to continue another 3hrs to Wichita Falls, TX. Oil pressure stayed normal. Next day the oil pressure was almost zero at takeoff again. I found mechanic to clean the oil pressure relief valve and the problem went away.
 
Departed home drome into a 500' ceiling at full gross. Upon entering the clouds I lost power on one side of the engine. 3325# does not climb well on 150 Hp. Limped along in the clouds flying the instrument approach in reverse knowing I'd have obstacle clearance. Popped out on top @ 2000 and diverted to a Vfr field. A united flight relayed my mayday.

We found ferrous metal in the spider and injectors. There was nothing ferrous in the fuel system.

That scared the crap outta me. More so than landing and going off the runway due to a broken gear part.
 
Confession:
I had an inadvertent VFR into IMC at night about 30mins into a flight. I was on FF and impact with the cloud happened right after getting a handoff to the next controller. When I changed freqs I got no response. I tried several times (in IMC!)-- did I mention that I had my family aboard???

I moved the flip flop back to the previous freq and also got no response. Tried my autopilot, but my compressed sense of time did not allow me to hold the engage button long enough for the AP to turn on. I decided to descend and it was taking longer than I liked and I was already at the top of the green, so I pushed a little more saying to myself "to hell with the yellow arc" and then popped out the bottom.

Still not getting a result on Comm1, I went to Comm2 on 121.5 and the controller said he heard each of my calls. Comm1 then started to work again. Eventually made it home but it was a long 2.5hr flight, I was highly motivated to get back on the ground to say the least and the RPM setting was set to match that motivation.
 
RotorAndWing said:
I had a turbocharger explode on the engine on a Cessna 404 Titan after takeoff (same engine as 421). The engine was running rough and would not go above idle. It was rough enough I shut it down. After I landed and looked it over all that was left was the turbocharger housing, everything in it shrapneled and went out the exhaust.
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That makes sense. I was curious in Bob's case if he'd identified that it was a loss of boost or just got it as an engine failure instead. At 14k I could imagine it being easy to confuse the two.

bobmrg said:
When the engine failed, I did not know that it had lost boost....only that it had failed. The plumbing problem was discovered on the ground, of course. I mulled over a re-start but didn't like the idea of an unknown failure possibly spraying fuel on hot manifolds.

Bob
Click to expand...

And that makes sense. If I'd identified it as a staight failure obviously I'd have done the same.

They gave me this same failure in the sim (which was rather silly since I fly a naturally aspirated 310, but still educational), which is why I asked. I think the scenario was going into Aspen, so it was around 14k as well. My initial thought was that the engine failed, and the instructor pointed to the EGT, which still had an indication.

Similarly, one of my old colleagues was in a Malibu when the same thing happened, I think somewhere in the flight levels, and the engine outright quit running. They were in Florida and started gliding back to Vero Beach (long glide range in a Malibu and lots of airports en route). Somewhere in the teens the engine started working again, naturally aspirated, and they found a hose popped off upon landing.
 
JMarttn said:
Good discussion. Mine is minor compared to a lot I've read so far. My handheld GPS went down, VFR over unfamiliar area, and if I hadn't been following along on my sectional I would have been lost for sure.
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My only incident is really minor too. Beautiful day, 3000 mile visibility it seemed, complete ego air. Takeoff, I pushed the throttles forward and checked..green, green, airspeed is....not alive. Sigh.

Pulled the throttle just when it was wanting to fly. Taxi back to the ramp, squawked the error, emailed the next couple of people on the schedule to let them know. Mechanic clean out a mud dauber nest later in the afternoon.
 
Most weren't emergencies:

1. Lost mag on a C-152 at departure end of runway, RPM max was 1500 and could barely hold altitude at 350 AGL. Plenty of dirt roads if needed but got it back to pavement.
2. Picked up a nail due to airport construction in a C-172 during takeoff, tire lost pressure in the air (didn't know it), found out during landing, but no big deal.
3. Lost transmit capability after leaving transitioning a Class C on long student XC. Turned back and landed (no credit for XC). Had to use ident to communicate with controllers. Tried Comm 2, co-pilot side, no joy.
4. Had alternator disentegrate on a night flight 10 miles from home drome. Smoke in cockpit from belt turning on a frozen pully (or what was left of it). Shed all electrical, got out one transmit then the battery overloaded (not sure how).
5. Lost AI at night XC, no big deal 3 GPS units on board, full moon night.
6. Lost ASI inbound from a XC in the trainer C-152. No big deal, always use tach for settings anyway.
 
On a long flight in a Cherokee I went to reposition my legs and slipped. Looked down and noticed about 1/2 inch of oil covering the floor and a rapid drip from the panel. Turns out the oil line had popped off the back of the oil pressure gauge.

Diverted to an airport about 15 minutes away, followed a road in case I ran out of oil, couldn't get the tower on the radio and just landed. Apparently the frequency had changed by NOTAM....(way pre-iPad days).
 
After about an hour of flying one day, I noticed 2 large dents in the top of the right wing. I had never seen them before but the plane was new to me so I assumed they were always there and I hadn't noticed.

Next day, I took the plane up to practice for a bit (not concerned about the dents). I landed to refuel, and I could not get the gas cap off the right wing easily.

I pulled real hard and massive woosh of air, and the dents popped right out.

Mud Dobber had clogged the exhaust tube under the wing
In hindsight, I should not have flown. Plane has a wet wing and the vacuum pressure was slowly collapsing the wing.

I spoke to the A&P guy and he said "I cleaned out the mud dobbers and it is good to go but could have ended in engine faiure or far worse as the suction was changnig the shape of the wing. this should not have been flown like this"

Now we have little covers over the gas tank pressure tubes to keep bugs out.
 
Had two pretty uneventful "issues" in my time thus far:

1) During primary training, we took off and headed toward the practice area when we noticed the Oil Temp was trending upwards in a way that it usually didn't. Took it back to the field, put it down as it was approaching redline temperature, shut her down and squawked it.
2) A couple weeks ago, was going to go on a cross-country up to MI when right after takeoff the low voltage annunciator lit up. Got up to the pattern and recycled alternator and checked circuit breakers to no avail. Shut down everything electrical I didn't need and then did a pretty uneventful no-flaps landing. Shut her down, squawked.
 
Last week something happened that I would never wish upon anyone. I am writing this up with the hopes that those who fly among us get reminded of the importance of proper ADM (Aeronautical Decision Making).

This unpleasant, dangerous experience was 100% preventable by the pilot.

The weather at the time of the incident was: 13005KT 8SM SCT027 OVC038 00/M03 A3028

It was raining during this event.

The TAF called for worsening conditions with freezing rain and lower ceilings and visibility.

A pilot rented a plane from the flight school that I work at. This pilot is a new Private Pilot who just got his rating recently. He booked a plane for that day a few days ahead of time and came in early, checked out the binder from the girl behind the desk and went to the line to pre-flight. This all took place before myself or any other certified flight instructor arrived to the airport that morning.

The pilot called Flight Service and received a weather briefing. Unfortunately i believe that in this case, the pilot misinterpreted what he heard from the pre-flight weather briefer.

I am not sure what prompted the pilot to return to land, nor how long he was aloft prior to making the decision to return. According to him he made 5 failed attempts at landing because he couldn't see out of his front windshield. After the 5th attempt he called the FBO to make them aware of the situation. The FBO linemen came to the school to let us know and I jumped on the radio.

Here is the recording of radio communications during the event. Start listening from 16 Minutes in:
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kgai/KGAI-Nov-26-2013-1500Z.mp3

At first he said he couldn't see because of "heavy rain". After a few more questions I realized that his windshield was iced over and he couldn't see a thing. I wanted to be outside at the runway to help direct him in so at some point I was using a handheld radio and the antenna for the LiveATC feed couldn't pick me up, all you hear are the pilots replies to my instructions.

It became apparent to me that the pilot was iced over and not utilizing his tools correctly to help solve the problem. His heater was off. I told him to put the cabin heat ON and open the defroster. The pilot opened the defroster but DID NOT turn the cabin heat. So in essence he was blowing cold air on an iced over window. At some point he says that he needs to "raise the gear, I am losing airspeed" I then instructed him to verify that the Pitot Heat is on. He did and he got some indications back.

The pilot managed to land safely and besides an bruised ego, there were no damage or injuries. It could have been VERY different as 80% of unintentional VFR flight in to IMC conditions end with a fatality.

Here is a picture of the windshield after he landed...

1454995_240341866129890_1640420365_n.jpg
 
I remember a newly certified instrument pilot coming in to rent our C-177RG. Weather was very similar to Bens situation except the field was IFR. Everything was coated in a layer of ice. Pilot was convinced he could climb through it and break out on top. Took 3 instructors telling him he would die if he took off to get him to hand over the keys.
 
Hmm, let's see.

Rental birds:
- Complete electrical failure at night in a Piper Apache. Landed at MSP by using the handheld radio.
- Complete electrical failure at night in a Piper Cherokee 140. Landed uneventfully.
- Altimeter failure in a Cherokee 140. A total non-event, and I got to use my then-new Casio altimeter watch.
- Total loss of the Janitrol cabin heater in a Cessna 310, over Minnesota in January. Absolutely the coldest I've ever been, but we lived.
- Had the throttle cable break on a Cherokee 140. Luckily, we were taxiing out for departure when it broke.

Owned Aircraft:
- Lost the #2 (of 6) cylinder departing Titusville, FL. Informed the tower, didn't declare an emergency, landed uneventfully. Turned out to have both plugs lead fouled, after a long ground hold for a presidential TFR.
 
BenZwebner said:
Last week something happened that I would never wish upon anyone. I am writing this up with the hopes that those who fly among us get reminded of the importance of proper ADM (Aeronautical Decision Making).

This unpleasant, dangerous experience was 100% preventable by the pilot.

The weather at the time of the incident was: 13005KT 8SM SCT027 OVC038 00/M03 A3028

It was raining during this event.

The TAF called for worsening conditions with freezing rain and lower ceilings and visibility.

A pilot rented a plane from the flight school that I work at. This pilot is a new Private Pilot who just got his rating recently. He booked a plane for that day a few days ahead of time and came in early, checked out the binder from the girl behind the desk and went to the line to pre-flight. This all took place before myself or any other certified flight instructor arrived to the airport that morning.

The pilot called Flight Service and received a weather briefing. Unfortunately i believe that in this case, the pilot misinterpreted what he heard from the pre-flight weather briefer.

I am not sure what prompted the pilot to return to land, nor how long he was aloft prior to making the decision to return. According to him he made 5 failed attempts at landing because he couldn't see out of his front windshield. After the 5th attempt he called the FBO to make them aware of the situation. The FBO linemen came to the school to let us know and I jumped on the radio.

Here is the recording of radio communications during the event. Start listening from 16 Minutes in:
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kgai/KGAI-Nov-26-2013-1500Z.mp3

At first he said he couldn't see because of "heavy rain". After a few more questions I realized that his windshield was iced over and he couldn't see a thing. I wanted to be outside at the runway to help direct him in so at some point I was using a handheld radio and the antenna for the LiveATC feed couldn't pick me up, all you hear are the pilots replies to my instructions.

It became apparent to me that the pilot was iced over and not utilizing his tools correctly to help solve the problem. His heater was off. I told him to put the cabin heat ON and open the defroster. The pilot opened the defroster but DID NOT turn the cabin heat. So in essence he was blowing cold air on an iced over window. At some point he says that he needs to "raise the gear, I am losing airspeed" I then instructed him to verify that the Pitot Heat is on. He did and he got some indications back.

The pilot managed to land safely and besides an bruised ego, there were no damage or injuries. It could have been VERY different as 80% of unintentional VFR flight in to IMC conditions end with a fatality.

Here is a picture of the windshield after he landed...

1454995_240341866129890_1640420365_n.jpg
Click to expand...

Very impressive, Ben. I would say at the very least he owes you a hamburger. You most likely saved his bacon!
If I ever find myself needing a ferry pilot you will be first in my list.
 
BenZwebner said:
...This unpleasant, dangerous experience was 100% preventable by the pilot...

...The pilot managed to land safely and besides an bruised ego, there were no damage or injuries.
Click to expand...
Great story and a very happy result!

Since this is SFRA, did it result in any 'official' attention? Do you know if the pilot got far enough to talk to approach? My recollection is that pootling around the pattern a bunch of times (which is what this would look like) is a no-no unless you've filed for it. I forget if you can ask approach when inbound.

I appreciate with respect to the deviation that this was 100% an emergency situation (albeit a self-made one), just wondering if it was 'spotted'.

By the way, love the "Thanks?? You'll do more than thank me!" on the ATC tape...
 
I hate ice. I've encountered it twice, the first time scared the you know what out of me. And the CFII in the right seat. Really gets your attention in a 182 that goes "poof, I'm iced up" at 13k when you punch into a cloud. We got lower and melted it off. That was the day before my private check ride.

When getting my complex endorsement in the Arrow the CFI told me to slow down and configure for slow flight. Pulled power, dropped the flaps and selected gear down. After a moment, "Did you feel the gear go down?" "No, and I don't have 3 green lights, either." Dug out the check list. Item 1 - check the following circuit breakers. Yup, 5 amp breaker popped. Pushed it in, gear came down. Now what? Well, we had a failure for unknown reasons. We now have three green lights. Fly back to the field with the gear down and let the A/P figure out why.

About the same time, when getting my HP endorsement in the 182 the high voltage light flashed and the alternator CB popped. Went through the drill and reset the electrical system. All was well. Happened to me a couple more times over the next year, nothing since. Glad the first time was with a CFI in the right seat. Made the next occurrences non-events.
 
On my longest cross country to date a few months after getting my license I had an alternator failure. I took me a few seconds to understand what was happening. When I did I started looking for the nearest airport with services on my Ipad. I took a few seconds to decide between a class c airport nearby or an uncontrolled. I finally decided I didn't want to integrate myself into traffic using the light gun so I went for the uncontrolled. I looked up the info on the airport, squawked 7600 and made an uneventful landing.

As I was talking to the airport manager and we were looking for the mechanics (of course it was lunch time on a Saturday and there was no one in sight) ATC called and asked if I was down and all right. I took the courtesy car into town to grab lunch and when I got back there was still no one to look at the plane. Spoke to my former cfi who I rent the plane from and we decided that if the plane would start I could fly home using pilotage and the iPad for nav.

Plane cranked easily and the alternator was back on line. On climb out I contacted ATC and thought it was nice when they remarked it was good to talk to me again. Flew home without a problem.

Turns out the alternator was intermittently going out and the same thing happened to my cfi later that week. New alternator and the plane is doing fine. In hindsight I ignored the ammeter showing the battery discharge. Now I make sure to include it in my scan.
 
wrighthenry said:
On my longest cross country to date a few months after getting my license I had an alternator failure. I took me a few seconds to understand what was happening. When I did I started looking for the nearest airport with services on my Ipad. I took a few seconds to decide between a class c airport nearby or an uncontrolled. I finally decided I didn't want to integrate myself into traffic using the light gun so I went for the uncontrolled. I looked up the info on the airport, squawked 7600 and made an uneventful landing.

As I was talking to the airport manager and we were looking for the mechanics (of course it was lunch time on a Saturday and there was no one in sight) ATC called and asked if I was down and all right. I took the courtesy car into town to grab lunch and when I got back there was still no one to look at the plane. Spoke to my former cfi who I rent the plane from and we decided that if the plane would start I could fly home using pilotage and the iPad for nav.

Plane cranked easily and the alternator was back on line. On climb out I contacted ATC and thought it was nice when they remarked it was good to talk to me again. Flew home without a problem.

Turns out the alternator was intermittently going out and the same thing happened to my cfi later that week. New alternator and the plane is doing fine. In hindsight I ignored the ammeter showing the battery discharge. Now I make sure to include it in my scan.
Click to expand...

Shoot, if alternator failures are counted, I've had that happen in every plane I've owned. Electrical systems in light aircraft are about as robust as the one in my 1966 Honda 160.

Which is to say: Not at all.

In the case of the Pipers, it was always a loose wire on the back of the alternator. With the 'Coupe and my RV, it's been a bad ground. Tough to trace, easy to fix.

Thankfully, electrical systems are optional for the kind of flying I do.
 
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