The day has finally come....

Radar Contact said:
Reference the lifters, my understanding of 470's is that the lifters are very easy to change and relatively cheap to do so. Of course this is providing the lifters haven't damaged the cam lobes.

I have nothing to add about the cylinder issue but am curious as to why you've been replacing them?

I am not trying to second guess your decision to O/H and wish you the best of luck during that! Just curious how people come to their final decision to O/H as that will obviously be one (or two) I have to make one day.
Click to expand...

I hear what you are saying. I feel that if I took it to a real engine guy I may be able to just fix the obviously warn parts and go on. But..l have one engine, and honestly i don’t want to chance it. I feel like if a a/p tells me it’s time, then it’s time for me. I guess it’s a risk tolerance thing and I’m unwilling to fly behind a overdue tbo engine in imc (which I do often in new England) when a a/p tells me it’s time
 
charlie said:
Pull all the lifters and inspect have someone who knows what they are looking at inspect the cam lobes. Tappets usually fail first so there is a possibility the lobes are good and new tappets could save it?FWIW crankcases are machined as a matched set during manufacture. Swapping 1/2 a case is just not done. Aluminum cases fret. I have never seen or heard of fatigue in a case.
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Charlie, I need someone like you here to help me thru this :)
 
Tom-D said:
Explain how he did that...?
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He showed me with what is visible. I am not a engine guy and honestly know not of what I speak. Just telling you what was told to me. And to me if it’s ready for oh it’s ready for oh
 
""Pull all the lifters and inspect have someone who knows what they are looking at inspect the cam lobes.""
I was hoping you would show us what your Mech saw that worried him.
Please follow Charlies advice
 
Tom-D said:
In that case, why don't you get smart enough to give sound engine advice.
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I haven't seen any good engine advice given to the OP from you In this thread, big boy (well, except to quote Charlie and concur...you know, Charlie, the guy who actually want to help instead of just beating his chest).

No...I'm just watching you play your typical BS game of "stump the chump"...playing 20 questions.

You're so grade school it's pathetic.
 
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timwinters said:
I haven't seen any good engine advice given to the OP from you In this thread.
Click to expand...
And your's was. ?

And typical of you, trying to start a Pizzing contest.
 
timwinters said:
I'm the one trying to start a pizzing contest? That f***ing hilarious coming from you.
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Why would you make post 45 if you weren't trying to start something.
Just another asinine antagonistic statement from you that adds noting to the thread.

But really defines you, not me.
I ask a civil question of the OP, and you throw a tantrum. Typical Timmy.
 
Tom-D said:
Why would you make post 45
Click to expand...

Because someone here has to carry the torch for Glenn now that he's gone! :)

And, yes, you were trolling. That's what you do best.
 
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Update:

I met with the other owners last night. The options we had were:

-Using a local engine re builder for a re-build with new Superior cylinders: $29k
-Winchester Aero in Winchester, VA w/ new Superior cylinders: 26k including shipping
-Penn Yan: 30k w/ OH cylinders
-0 Time Rebuild from TCM: $34k

I believe we are going to choose Winchester Aero for our rebuild. Anybody have any PIREPS on them? Also anything I should be asking them that is important to make sure they do, etc? This is our first rebuild so any input on what I should be asking would be good

Also we decided it makes since to put an engine monitor in at the same point.

We are thinking of going with the G2 from Insight Avionics or the EDM-800 from JPI. Any PIREPS on either of these?

I'll keep everyone posted as we move through this process. Hopefully 8 weeks or so from now I have my plane flyable again.
 
Was there at Aero in their shop doing avionics work last weekend. Looks like they're busy and do quite a bit of engine work....based on the debris of old parts. I'd seek out previous patients for their feed back. Nothing I saw was bad...just that they look busy.
 
neilw2 said:
-Using a local engine re builder for a re-build with new Superior cylinders: $29k
-Winchester Aero in Winchester, VA w/ new Superior cylinders: 26k including shipping
-Penn Yan: 30k w/ OH cylinders
-0 Time Rebuild from TCM: $34k
Click to expand...

Wow. Penn Yan sure thinks highly of themselves. I know they have a good reputation, but $4K extra WITHOUT new cylinders? Yikes.

I believe we are going to choose Winchester Aero for our rebuild. Anybody have any PIREPS on them?
Click to expand...

I would suggest you also get a quote from Charlie's shop (Zephyr). In addition, I've had excellent experiences with Poplar Grove Airmotive.

Also anything I should be asking them that is important to make sure they do, etc? This is our first rebuild so any input on what I should be asking would be good
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Ask if they'll run it in on a test stand for a few hours, or not. We've gotten engines back from Poplar Grove that were pretty much broken in before they were even hung on the airplane. Good for QC, and makes it much easier on you. This is especially important in a multi-pilot situation because not everyone will be as good at reading and following the break-in procedures as everyone else.

Also we decided it makes since to put an engine monitor in at the same point.

We are thinking of going with the G2 from Insight Avionics or the EDM-800 from JPI. Any PIREPS on either of these?
Click to expand...

IMO, it's worth the extra money to get the G3 if you're going with Insight. Take a look at their comparison graph, look at what parameters each has available, and think about it in terms of data logging. Logging EGT and CHT is relatively useless if you don't also have MAP and RPM. Just MHO... And I've found that data logging is incredibly useful, especially over time, and can save some significant maintenance dollars.

As far as JPI, I don't think I would install either a 700 or an 800 at this point - Get the 730 or 830 instead. You'll get more information on-screen at once, a much more easily readable, reliable, maintainable display, easier to download data logs, etc.

So, were I you, I'd be comparing the EDM 830 and Insight G3. You may also want to look at the CGR-30P and possibly the CGR-30C from EI as well.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
This is especially important in a multi-pilot situation because not everyone will be as good at reading and following the break-in procedures as everyone else.
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I know instinctively that has to be true, that you’ve actually experienced it, and it makes me want to claw my eyeballs out that I read it and nodded in agreement.
 
When comparing shops, you need to have them provide a list of what is meant by overhaul.
Some shops will apply all SBs and ADs. Others only ADs...
There are also many other subtle differences.

Tim

Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk
 
flyingcheesehead said:
IMO, it's worth the extra money to get the G3 if you're going with Insight. Take a look at their comparison graph, look at what parameters each has available, and think about it in terms of data logging. Logging EGT and CHT is relatively useless if you don't also have MAP and RPM. Just MHO... And I've found that data logging is incredibly useful, especially over time, and can save some significant maintenance dollars.
.
Click to expand...

Wow, thanks for that informative post.

One quick question- and not because I’m arguing with you but because I’ve never used one. How exactly could the engine log data become useful for maintence? When will my mechanic want to look at the data and how will he find it useful?
 
neilw2 said:
Wow, thanks for that informative post.

One quick question- and not because I’m arguing with you but because I’ve never used one. How exactly could the engine log data become useful for maintence? When will my mechanic want to look at the data and how will he find it useful?
Click to expand...

Your mechanic may not be particularly interested in data - Or he may - But you can look at the data yourself and get something out of it too. And, having multiple people flying the plane can make it even more important.

As an example, when I was maintenance officer for our club, one of our pilots squawked a cylinder as running too hot and suggested that we needed to check the baffling. If I hadn't had data, I would have probably called up the shop, told them that we had a cylinder running hot, and to please check it out. They'd have looked at the baffling, checked mag timing, made sure the injector wasn't clogged, checked the spark plugs, maybe checked compression, and probably adjusted a few things and sent it back as "fixed," likely with a cost of $500ish in shop time.

But, I had data. So, I looked at the flight in question and some other flights that pilot had flown, as well as other flights entirely, and noted that over a period of 5-6 years we'd had the airplane, that cylinder ALWAYS ran a little hotter than the others, and that it was not running too hot (still under 380). Better yet, I got on cirrusreports.com and found that the plane one serial number after us had posted some of his data publicly, and noted that his #4 cylinder also ran a little hotter than the others! So, I noted that it's likely just a quirk of the design and that it was still running within OK parameters, and closed the squawk without spending a cent.

Another example: Say one of your partners doesn't really know much about how to use an engine monitor and reports to you that he had some roughness on runup. Rather than reporting to the shop that you're having some roughness on runup and paying them to diagnose, you can pull the data, look at the EGTs, and be able to call them and say "please replace the top plug on the #3 cylinder." You'll get better results for less money if you have more information.

Hope this helps!
 
tspear said:
When comparing shops, you need to have them provide a list of what is meant by overhaul.
Some shops will apply all SBs and ADs. Others only ADs...
There are also many other subtle differences.

Tim

Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
The overhaul manual of both major engine manufacturers say the SB are to be complied with at overhaul.
Any AD effecting the major re-builable items will be complied with at the rework facility by directions in their CRS/ FAA approved repair procedures.
Case in point, Crankshafts have ADs that require some to be removed from service at next overhaul, they will be returned STAMPED and red tagged.
 
Tom-D said:
The overhaul manual of both major engine manufacturers say the SB are to be complied with at overhaul.
Any AD effecting the major re-builable items will be complied with at the rework facility by directions in their CRS/ FAA approved repair procedures.
Case in point, Crankshafts have ADs that require some to be removed from service at next overhaul, they will be returned STAMPED and red tagged.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I thought the same thing. However, the recent Continental Camshaft gear debacle has shown that not every SB is complied with at overhaul depending on the shop.
Based on following the thread on BeechTalk, I asked two shops I have dealt with previously and both confirmed that based on the exact phrasing the owner uses shops have wiggle room. Therefore, it is always better to ask for what exact SBs will be addressed; if any. I did not pay attention enough to what is the correct phrasing, since I do not expect/hope to need it anytime soon.

Tim
 
tspear said:
Yeah, I thought the same thing. However, the recent Continental Camshaft gear debacle has shown that not every SB is complied with at overhaul depending on the shop.
Based on following the thread on BeechTalk, I asked two shops I have dealt with previously and both confirmed that based on the exact phrasing the owner uses shops have wiggle room. Therefore, it is always better to ask for what exact SBs will be addressed; if any. I did not pay attention enough to what is the correct phrasing, since I do not expect/hope to need it anytime soon.

Tim
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Read FAR 43.2 the only wiggle room you have is what size limits you will use.
 
FAR 43.2 (1)

(1) Using methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, it has been disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as necessary, and reassembled;-->

It is never acceptable to use parts that have been AD'ed, with out complying with the AD
 
timwinters said:
I haven't seen any good engine advice given to the OP from you In this thread, big boy (well, except to quote Charlie and concur...you know, Charlie, the guy who actually want to help instead of just beating his chest).

No...I'm just watching you play your typical BS game of "stump the chump"...playing 20 questions.

You're so grade school it's pathetic.
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IOWs you only read what you want, not post 46.
 
neilw2 said:
I believe we are going to choose Winchester Aero for our rebuild. Anybody have any PIREPS on them? Also anything I should be asking them that is important to make sure they do, etc? This is our first rebuild so any input on what I should be asking would be good
Click to expand...
0-470 rebuild, things I would want, a new cam, and a full set of new lifter assemblies.
Crankshaft regrind, If it will not clean up at -.010" I'd install a new crank too.
Timing gears, insist on the new part number gears (new gears)

Require the overhauler comply with the requirements of "Rebuilt" to new standards. IAW FAR 43.2
 
Tom-D said:
FAR 43.2 (1)

(1) Using methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, it has been disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as necessary, and reassembled;-->

It is never acceptable to use parts that have been AD'ed, with out complying with the AD
Click to expand...

I said SBs.

Tim
 
Tom-D said:
The issue with SB was answered, they are required by the overhaul manual, of both manufactures
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Actually it depends. I have dug into this a few times; and this is where language matters. Since I hope to not need an overhaul anytime soon, like I said before, I did not pay attention to the language details when requesting quotes. But how you ask is critical. I therefore remember the go forward, get a list of SBs to be complied with.

Depending on the specific language used in the log entry will determine if it meets the full FAA definition of overhaul.
Here is a descent summary of the logbook language:
http://www.aviationpros.com/article...nd-overhaul-use-the-right-word-in-the-logbook

Tim
 
tspear said:
Actually it depends. I have dug into this a few times; and this is where language matters. Since I hope to not need an overhaul anytime soon, like I said before, I did not pay attention to the language details when requesting quotes. But how you ask is critical. I therefore remember the go forward, get a list of SBs to be complied with.

Depending on the specific language used in the log entry will determine if it meets the full FAA definition of overhaul.
Here is a descent summary of the logbook language:
http://www.aviationpros.com/article...nd-overhaul-use-the-right-word-in-the-logbook

Tim
Click to expand...
The required language is in FAR 43.9
The FAA has on several occasions made it quite clear what is required in a engine overhaul return to service entry.
Point one.. If it doesn't say it has been overhauled, it hasn't been. The FAA leaves open the verbiage as to what was done. But FAR 43 is pretty explicit in what is required to adhere to "practices acceptable to the Administrator"
 
Here is where the FAA will hang you out to dry for engine rebuilds.

(2) It has been tested in accordance with approved standards and technical data, or in accordance with current standards and technical data acceptable to the Administrator, which have been developed and documented by the holder of the type certificate, supplemental type certificate, or a material, part, process, or appliance approval under part 21 of this chapter.

The only approved standard for testing is;
1 The overhaul manual
2 A service bulletin by the manufacturer
3 A FAA aproved CRS instruction.

The entry should have verbiage like this

This engine S/N xxxxxx-x-x has been overhauled and will meet FAR 43.2 as rebuilt to new standards, at TT of xxxxx, tach time of XXXX.x
With the following parts replaced
1. a complete list

Then remember you need and entry in your engine log book removing it from your A/C, plus an entry in your A/C log book removing it.
And in both books replacing it.
Why do they do this? simply because the same engine S/N may not be the replacement engine
 
@Tom D
You are missing what I am saying, sort of like a lot of owners making assumptions about what an overhaul represents.
Overhaul has a specific meaning in the context of a logbook. It does NOT have a specific meaning in terms of the quote you receive.
Therefore, when you send out an engine to be "overhauled" do NOT make assumptions about what it represents. Ask questions, find out. Get the list of SBs, get sample log book entries....

Tim
 
tspear said:
@Tom D
You are missing what I am saying, sort of like a lot of owners making assumptions about what an overhaul represents.
Overhaul has a specific meaning in the context of a logbook. It does NOT have a specific meaning in terms of the quote you receive.
Therefore, when you send out an engine to be "overhauled" do NOT make assumptions about what it represents. Ask questions, find out. Get the list of SBs, get sample log book entries....

Tim
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When buying anything as important and expensive as an engine overhaul, every one should do their home work. I thought that would be a basic assumption.
 
This thread peaked my interest. The Lycoming 0-320 in my 1967 Cherokee 140 was overhauled in 1972 at 2000 hrs. Has 1620 SMOH with a top 100 hours ago due to cracked cylinders. Solid compressions, no metal observed in filter during oil change, burned 1 quart of oil in first 22 hours I flew it since annual. But I'm wondering now after reading this thread, what caused the cylinders to crack? In the back of my mind I am thinking when my annual comes due in April, will my A&P take issue with the age of the engine.
 
tspear said:
Actually it depends. I have dug into this a few times; and this is where language matters. Since I hope to not need an overhaul anytime soon, like I said before, I did not pay attention to the language details when requesting quotes. But how you ask is critical. I therefore remember the go forward, get a list of SBs to be complied with.

Depending on the specific language used in the log entry will determine if it meets the full FAA definition of overhaul.
Here is a descent summary of the logbook language:
http://www.aviationpros.com/article...nd-overhaul-use-the-right-word-in-the-logbook

Tim
Click to expand...

Excellent article! I am a fan of Bill Obrien's writing. Simple, to the point and with references to the regs he is discussing.
 
Tom-D said:
When buying anything as important and expensive as an engine overhaul, every one should do their home work. I thought that would be a basic assumption.
Click to expand...

Yeah, as I found out, and as I watched the Cam Gear AD come out, I think the vast majority of buyers do not know any better. They feel they are doing proper diligence, but do not know the questions to ask. Hence my statement, when discussing the shop, ask for a list of what is covered!

Tim
 
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