The Best Time to Own a Plane in Years is NOW

[Everskyward]

However, this has nothing to do with my salient point -- which is that our aviation advocacy groups have done a terrible job of trumpeting the fact that "AIRPLANES ARE ON SALE TODAY". This should be part of a huge marketing campaign to get more pilots into the left seat.

Dunno, boats are on sale today too, and so are nice houses, including vacation homes. Airplanes need to compete with all that. But airplanes come with an additional price tag if you are not already a pilot. It takes more than a small amount of effort and dedication to learn how to fly even if money is no object. I know plenty of people who ride in airplanes who could afford a small airplane. Are they interested? Not so much. Even the ones who are vaguely interested know that they don't have the time to dedicate to such an endeavor.

 

[Jay Honeck]

A boat is your floating seaside condo where you can eat and drink and find shelter. You can live on your boat for extended periods of time. A boat provides infinitely more options of usability than a small plane. For the price of my plane I could have bought a 70' sail boat.

We use our hangar in much the same way. We party there several nights a week.

I'm always amazed by how seldom people use their hangars.

 

[dell30rb]

When I see the sacrifices people make to own BOATS down here on the island, I have faith that they would jump at the relatively-more-useful personal airplanes -- if only they knew about them.

Think about it: Boats go...no where. In circles, really, if they ever leave the dock at all -- AND they cost a freaking fortune to operate. An airplane can go ANYWHERE....

The industry has done a terrible job of marketing this concept. If you look back in the magazines from the 1950s, they did better.

Jay, I completely agree with you. Many of my friends are shocked at the cost of operating an airplane. Its very comparable to a boat. In fact, boats are probably more expensive.

Boat insurance = expensive
Slips are expensive waterfront property
Annual hauling and painting - for a 30 foot boat this is about 1 AMU with no squawks
Boats burn a ton of fuel and marina prices are around $1/gal more than your local 7eleven
FAA approved airplane parts are expensive... but boat stuff is pretty stupid expensive as well. And lots of stuff does not last because of constant saltwater exposure.

 

[wabower]

No offense, but that's just silly talk.

Of COURSE you measure a "good buy" by comparing prices to what they were yesterday. We do that with EVERYTHING, from the cost of a hotel room, to buying tires for the car.

If the price has gone down, we are happy, and are more likely to buy. It's how the economy works.

YGBSM. Why isn't real estate selling? How about motor homes, boats, golf club memberships, time-shares and other properties that are now available at incredible prices compared to the past?

However, this has nothing to do with my salient point -- which is that our aviation advocacy groups have done a terrible job of trumpeting the fact that "AIRPLANES ARE ON SALE TODAY". This should be part of a huge marketing campaign to get more pilots into the left seat.

The reason is simple. They know it's not true. Prices have been in the dumper since 3Q2008. Why should anybody with a lick of sense suddenly decide they are good buys now?

 

[John Baker]

This might be the best time to buy an aircraft, but few are doing it. I bought mine at the worst time, I paid 47K for it, now I can't even get a nibble at 30K and it's in much better shape.

It's more than the price of an airplane that's keeping pilots, or wannabes, on the ground.

John

 

[Anthony]

I'm not talking about being "affordable" to people who would finance 100% of the purchase of an Archer. I'm talking about being "affordable" to people with some assets, who could buy an Archer with cash, or maybe finance a third.

Flying will never be "cheap" -- but the time to buy has never been better, in my lifetime.

Then take out the $333 monthly cost to finance the plane, and it is still close to $1,300/mos without reserves, so with reserves it is back up to $1600 - $1700/mos or more depending on what happens. Does a small boat cost nearly $2k per month to just operate, fuel, maintenance, slip, insurance (no financing, opprtunity cost, etc)? Most people I know only have a boat in the water for three months. The rest of the time it sits in their back yard FOR "FREE".

Again Jay, the cost to operate, and maintain FAR outweighs the reduced purchase price of an airplane. What was fuel cost ten years ago? That is all I am saying. It is a far worse climate to own a plane right now than ten years ago.

Trying to convince people now is a great or "best" time to own an airplane is misleading

 

[dell30rb]

A boat is your floating seaside condo where you can eat and drink and find shelter. You can live on your boat for extended periods of time. A boat provides infinitely more options of usability than a small plane. For the price of my plane I could have bought a 70' sail boat.

True but who has time for that? I owned a 30' sloop for a few years and sold it because I never got good use out of it. I needed at least one able person to help me sail it. It was not worth the hassle to take it out for just a weekend, you can't go anywhere in a sailboat in a weekend, its too slow. Getting crew together for a several day long trip or a week or two (which is a lot of fun and a good use of the boat) is nearly impossible. No one can take off work etc...

An airplane is a different story. I can hop in the plane with girlfriend, fly 1.5 hours and spend the night at the beach with friends. Or grab 3 friends, fly 1.5 hours west and stay in a cabin and fly fish for the weekend.

 

[dell30rb]

Most people I know only have a boat in the water for three months. The rest of the time it sits in their back yard FOR "FREE".

You have obviously never owned a boat!

 

[Anthony]

You have obviously never owned a boat!

No, you're right I haven't and don't need another hole in which to poor money.

 

[Jay Honeck]

This might be the best time to buy an aircraft, but few are doing it. I bought mine at the worst time, I paid 47K for it, now I can't even get a nibble at 30K and it's in much better shape.

It's more than the price of an airplane that's keeping pilots, or wannabes, on the ground.

John

Agreed, and there is little you (or I) can do about this as individual aircraft owners.

When we sell a plane, we post it in T-A-P, GA News, etc. -- all in-bred, self-serving periodicals that are read only by people who are already pilots. This group is tiny, and shrinking.

I'm talking about getting the word out to the general population about the overall affordability of used aircraft. Edumacating the "reg'ler Amuricans" who think that you have to be a millionaire to fly an airplane.

This will require the marketing muscle of a national organization like AOPA. As someone upstream mentioned, this may conflict with their advertising goals -- Cessna won't be pleased to have someone contrasting a beautiful $30K 172 with their new $350K 172 -- but if we don't grow the pilot population, AOPA's continued existence is questionable anyway -- so what have they got to lose?

Answer: Everything. AOPA should get moving on this, IMHO.

 

[steingar]

An airplane gets you to a destination. A boat is a destination.

All that said, aircraft aren't that bad financially compared to many other activities. A horse costs what an airplane does unless you have your own land, but then you're probably paying plenty on the land itself. The same can be said for a vacation home, which requires its own upkeep. If I think about everything I spend on my house and doubling it, that gets expensive fast. The bike racers I know spend as much racing as I do flying, and they don't race as often as I fly. The car racers probably spend a lot more.

Truly the biggest difference is the training you need to operate an aircraft, which you truly don't need in any other discretionary finance dump zone. But buy a car or bike, and you've bought a toy. Buy an airplane, and you've bought an activity, one that can help you travel.

 

[Jay Honeck]

True but who has time for that? I owned a 30' sloop for a few years and sold it because I never got good use out of it. I needed at least one able person to help me sail it. It was not worth the hassle to take it out for just a weekend, you can't go anywhere in a sailboat in a weekend, its too slow. Getting crew together for a several day long trip or a week or two (which is a lot of fun and a good use of the boat) is nearly impossible. No one can take off work etc...

An airplane is a different story. I can hop in the plane with girlfriend, fly 1.5 hours and spend the night at the beach with friends. Or grab 3 friends, fly 1.5 hours west and stay in a cabin and fly fish for the weekend.

Amen, brother! Now you're talking!

This is the message that needs to be spread, far and wide. AOPA should have a booth at every major boat show in America.

 

[Henning]

Oh, want another 'Scare em away' factor? Look at the other end of the market, when they want to get rid of their gem. Read the threads directed towards me and a $95,000 price tag on my plane. Why would anyone want to add themselves into the middle of a group of hyenas?

 

[dell30rb]

No, you're right I haven't and don't need another hole in which to poor money.

Depending on your definition of "small boat"

If we are thinking something used, in good shape, around 30k that is big enough for the family to spend a night on...

Its going to burn a LOT of gas.
Insurance is comparable to an airplane
Annual costs are around the same ($1k a year inescapable hauling and painting)
slip costs at a decent marina are more than you would pay for a hangar

 

[steingar]

Oh, want another 'Scare em away' factor? Look at the other end of the market, when they want to get rid of their gem. Read the threads directed towards me and a $95,000 price tag on my plane. Why would anyone want to add themselves into the middle of a group of hyenas?

Many of us felt your price was unreasonable, and I still do. Proof of my pudding is that you didn't sell it. Had the price been my own version of reasonable someone would have snapped it right up. It is a nice aircraft.

I've seen it for cars and bikes too, by the way. Someone mods their car or bike all the heck and gone and decides it's a treasure and they should recoup their entire investment. Hobbies don't always make money. Probably occurs for boats. Definitely for real estate.

But it is a buyers market, and it won't last forever. At these prices lots of these aircraft are going to follow the 150s overseas.

 

[Henning]

Many of us felt your price was unreasonable, and I still do. Proof of my pudding is that you didn't sell it. Had the price been my own version of reasonable someone would have snapped it right up. It is a nice aircraft.

I've seen it for cars and bikes too, by the way. Someone mods their car or bike all the heck and gone and decides it's a treasure and they should recoup their entire investment. Hobbies don't always make money. Probably occurs for boats. Definitely for real estate.

But it is a buyers market, and it won't last forever. At these prices lots of these aircraft are going to follow the 150s overseas.

Right, you consider the cost of the airplane unreasonable, but the cost is what the cost is, and considering the flying sales price is less than book and considerably less than the salvage price of the engines (150 & 350 hrs), props(new AD Free Top Props), and avionics leaving over an excellent condition low time (3300hr) airframe, I reiterate, your expectations of what the price should be are akin to hyenas trying to steal a meal.

Why would a reasonable person expecting to spend money want to subject themselves to band of selfish tightwads? That's not recreation.

 

[Anthony]

Depending on your definition of "small boat"

Four + place runabout. Not something you sleep on. A boat you can either tralier or keep in a slip. That is more comparable to a small plane, as most planes we have (typical four place, non cabin class).

I know even small boats are expensive to own and operate. So I hear ya.

 

[dell30rb]

Four + place runabout. Not something you sleep on. A boat you can either tralier or keep in a slip. That is more comparable to a small plane, as most planes we have (typical four place, non cabin class).

I know even small boats are expensive to own and operate. So I hear ya.

You can "save" money by getting a boat that is trailered.. say a 23 foot boat with a single 200hp outboard. Then think about how much gas you'll spend on fuel hauling it around, plus maintenance on the tow rig.. unless you drive a big pickup already.

 

[Anthony]

You can "save" money by getting a boat that is trailered.. say a 23 foot boat with a single 200hp outboard. Then think about how much gas you'll spend on fuel hauling it around, plus maintenance on the tow rig.. unless you drive a big pickup already.

That makes sense, however, the premise of the thread was that this is the best time to own a plane in years. I disagree due to the rising fuel costs, hangar, insurance, avionics, and maintenance costs. My position is that the increases in ongoing operating expenses far outweigh the reduction in purchase price.

 

[denverpilot]

Look, I'm not talking about being "affordable" for your $8.50/hour laborer. I'm talking about being "affordable" for guys who own their own business, are into boating, etc.

These people have NO idea that a good, solid, 4-seat airplane can be purchased for less than $50K. Some even think I'm lying when I tell them that, since they're driving around in their $60K Beemer.

This is a major marketing failure. It's as if there were millions of people pining for a car, not knowing that they were available at an affordable cost.

The point being that the time has never been better to get into personal flying. Airplanes cost literally half of what they did ten years ago, not even factoring in inflation. And the general, non-flying public does not know it.

The "problem" is, the person buying the $60K luxury car, also wants ... for lack of a better term ... a luxury airplane.

Most of us are flying the "pickup truck airplanes"... maybe an older interior, older but perfectly working avionics, etc.

Someone mentioned "modern" avionics in their reply to your ideas, for example. If you feel you MUST have a panel-mount IFR GPS, you start to run into that age-old problem... "Well, if we're tearing the panel apart to put in that..."

Personally... and this is just me... I'm completely fine with "old-fashioned" avionics right now. We're talking about finding a used 430 to shove in the panel, but we may put that money into the interior too... the 430 ostensibly is the correct "safety" upgrade, but 35 year old upholstery is kinda a bummer...

So... yeah, there's $60K luxury car drivers we're "missing" with our marketing efforts towards getting them into aviation, but if they're the "spoiled brat" type of person who doesn't see the value in an older airframe and will spend cash to upgrade it to "modern" standards, they're going to go looking at stuff like Cirrus. They're used to their leather seats and butt-warmers.

 

[dell30rb]

I used to ride motocross, and I spent about the same amount per weekend on riding as I do now flying.

Used bike and new gear = 5k
Drive 1.5 hrs to track saturday and pay fee for a day of riding = $70
x 4 weekends a month $280
Monthly maintenance (tires, chain, sprockets, clutches) $300

Now my airplane costs
Get PPL $5500
Monthly Club Dues $60
Fly $70 an hour 152's and $100/hr PA-28's around 10 hrs a month while occasionally getting $ from pax for long trips $600


The airplane is fun because I can enjoy it with friends and travel. Same can be said for a boat, though as I mentioned in an earlier post it is somewhat difficult for a working person living a few hrs from the coast to utilize the boat.

 

[dell30rb]

That makes sense, however, the premise of the thread was that this is the best time to own a plane in years. I disagree due to the rising fuel costs, hangar, insurance, avionics, and maintenance costs. My position is that the increases in ongoing operating expenses far outweigh the reduction in purchase price.

Understand your point, but when comparing it to a boat I think the rising costs are similar. And boats remain more popular. boats and airplanes are both fuel and maintenance hungry. Engine overhaul costs for a boat are about the same as for an airplane... your new 4 stroke outboard will last you 10-15 years with good maintenance in the salt, they are about $20k to replace. seems about the same with airplanes.

 

[Anthony]

Understand your point, but when comparing it to a boat I think the rising costs are similar. And boats remain more popular. boats and airplanes are both fuel and maintenance hungry. Engine overhaul costs for a boat are about the same as for an airplane... your new 4 stroke outboard will last you 10-15 years with good maintenance in the salt, they are about $20k to replace. seems about the same with airplanes.

Agreed. All the expenses for boating and flying have gone up probably at comparatively similar rates. Boating is more popular because it is easier to do, can act as floating party platform, and isn't scary to so many people. You can "relax" when you boat. Flying is not really a relaxing endeavor as many of us have been trained to constantly run emergency scenarios in our heads when we do have the capacity to "relax" on a flight.

 

[denverpilot]

Oh, want another 'Scare em away' factor? Look at the other end of the market, when they want to get rid of their gem. Read the threads directed towards me and a $95,000 price tag on my plane. Why would anyone want to add themselves into the middle of a group of hyenas?

I personally thought your price tag was "close" to right. The thing keeping your aircraft from selling is the 23-26 GPH to operate it.

You mention that you fly it LOP and baby it... and many would, but there's a portion of the crowd that would want a 310 who would want to fly it around balls-to-the-wall, and the fuel costs are too high compared to a slicker, faster, modern single.

Many of us understand the utility and possibly even the safety (if flown correctly and the pilot stays current and gets appropriate regular training) of the twin, but the care and feeding of two 13 GPH engines, plus reserve, is beyond reach for many fully-aviation-addicted folk, without a lot of partners.

I love the C-310 ... in my head. I look at the operating cost numbers and think... "insanity". It's a light twin from an era of $1/gal fuel.

The things you've done to it, make it a great personal transportation tool, but the kids who are building time are going to buy a clap-trap 310 that has solid engines and trashed interior and fly the snot out of it and sell it at a loss, just to put twin time in their logs. Personal flyers are going to balk at the operating costs.

So, that leaves your 310 a bit "lost" in the middle. Too nice to beat up to build time in, and too just a touch too expensive to operate as a personal transportation machine unless you're the type that MUST have two engines.

The ENTIRE market is also in a very bad place for "step-up" upgrades, since most folks who'd want your 310 already own something else they probably couldn't sell easily... and that they just might be upside-down in. The problem "trickles up" so to speak. I'm not sure what breaks that cycle other than a whole bunch of folks collectively taking a fiscal drowning.

 

[RotorAndWing]

When I see the sacrifices people make to own BOATS down here on the island, I have faith that they would jump at the relatively-more-useful personal airplanes -- if only they knew about them.

Think about it: Boats go...no where. In circles, really, if they ever leave the dock at all -- AND they cost a freaking fortune to operate. An airplane can go ANYWHERE....

The industry has done a terrible job of marketing this concept. If you look back in the magazines from the 1950s, they did better.

You know nothing about boating as observed in your diatribe, yet you continue to run it down as a means to justify your hobby of flying. If you want to make comparisons use facts instead of hyperbole.

I own a 45 foot twin diesel pilothouse yacht. Over my life I've owned 25 different airplanes (and helicopters) and my boat is by far cheaper to own and operate than any of the aircraft.

This last summer I did a 600 mile trip on my boat. Trying to compare that experience to a 600 mile trip in a Piper single engine is like comparing apples to bulldozers.

The weekends I spend with my family on that boat are enjoyable even if we don't leave the dock. We fish, swim, cookout, have socials with friends and family. And I can have more than 4 people on my boat.

With your airplane what do you do with your family and friends on the weekend? Well, you can give "rides" but how many times until that get's old? And talk about going out and "going around in circles"?

You can fly somewhere to eat....and only take 3 others. You can take a trip, but have weather considerations as well as baggage limits, and again only you and 3 others.

There again you could "hang out" in your hot and sweaty hangar while you wax your wings, a real family weekend.

 

[steingar]

Right, you consider the cost of the airplane unreasonable, but the cost is what the cost is, and considering the flying sales price is less than book and considerably less than the salvage price of the engines (150 & 350 hrs), props(new AD Free Top Props), and avionics leaving over an excellent condition low time (3300hr) airframe, I reiterate, your expectations of what the price should be are akin to hyenas trying to steal a meal.

Why would a reasonable person expecting to spend money want to subject themselves to band of selfish tightwads? That's not recreation.

Henning, the value is what it is to the customer. I just saw a $70K Cherokee 140 on Ebay. The guy was only asking what he had in it, and he had a lot. No one bought it, and I doubt anyone will. The guy is upside down in his aircraft. Yeah, I could do the same to my aircraft, but I wouldn't expect to recoup it. This is the position a lot of people find themselves in now, with aircraft that aren't worth the money that's been invested in them. Heck, there are lots of folks with houses in the same boat.

The good news is you still have your medical and can afford the care and feeding of your twin. I reiterate, it is a really nice airplane, you should fly the wings off it. Get some use out of it. Why not, to get that capability in a new airplane you'd probably have to invest a half million, and even then I don't know if you could do it. In a sense yours is a real bargain. But I suspect you will be in for a very unpleasant surprise if you have to unload it in a hurry. I truly hope that day never comes for you.

 

[dell30rb]

You can "relax" when you boat. Flying is not really a relaxing endeavor as many of us have been trained to constantly run emergency scenarios in our heads when we do have the capacity to "relax" on a flight.

LOL i've been with a few 'skippers' that make boating much less than a relaxing experience.

Your point is well taken however.

You need no formal training in boating, however the "license to learn" thing still applies, just as much as with airplanes. Someone who buys a boat and tries to operate with no experience is in for a frustrating and expensive time. Not to mention potentially very dangerous - boats are usually more forgiving than airplanes but you can still get into big trouble

 

[Henning]

Understand your point, but when comparing it to a boat I think the rising costs are similar. And boats remain more popular. boats and airplanes are both fuel and maintenance hungry. Engine overhaul costs for a boat are about the same as for an airplane... your new 4 stroke outboard will last you 10-15 years with good maintenance in the salt, they are about $20k to replace. seems about the same with airplanes.

Again, the difference is the social value of the boat is considerably higher than planes. How many raft ups of planes do you see camping around on weekends? How often have you seen guys gathered around a plane cheering on a topless girl standing on top?

 

[John Baker]

AOPA seems too caught up in itself to bother much with the low end of GA and the secondary aircraft market. Spending money to entice people to take up flying in a used twenty or thirty thousand dollar airplane does not seem like what AOPA is about at all. They seem more concerned with attracting wealthier people into GA. This is just the feeling I've gotten in the five years I was a member.

It also might just be a liability issue for them. What is safer, to promote taking up flying in a brand new airplane or encouraging people to take up flying in an old used airplane?

John

 

[dell30rb]

You know nothing about boating as observed in your diatribe, yet you continue to run it down as a means to justify your hobby of flying. If you want to make comparisons use facts instead of hyperbole.

This last summer I did a 600 mile trip on my boat. Trying to compare that experience to a 600 mile trip in a Piper single engine is like comparing apples to bulldozers.

With your airplane what do you do with your family and friends on the weekend? Well, you can give "rides" but how many times until that get's old? And talk about going out and "going around in circles"?

You can fly somewhere to eat....and only take 3 others. You can take a trip, but have weather considerations as well as baggage limits, and again only you and 3 others.

There again you could "hang out" in your hot and sweaty hangar while you wax your wings, a real family weekend.

Most boat owners don't have the time or experience necessary to take a 600 mile trip.

What can you do in a weekend with your airplane? Travel. Sure taking rides gets old but put a dot on your map and draw a circle around the 2 hour flight radius of your airplane. See how many places you can go?

Don't tell me that weather does not affect boating plans. Maybe less so in a 45 twin diesel pilothouse, but in the last 10 years of family boat trips I can't remember a single one where weather has not caused unpleasant delays or otherwise at some point. And how about the one summer when a tropical depression formed over the coast of NC and hovered for two days pinning us down in a dumpy ICW location and soaking us thoroughly? This was super unpleasant even in a brand new 43' sailboat. One trip to the virgin islands, it rained hard every day for a week.

 

[dell30rb]

Again, the difference is the social value of the boat is considerably higher than planes. How many raft ups of planes do you see camping around on weekends? How often have you seen guys gathered around a plane cheering on a topless girl standing on top?

Unfortunately in my neck of the woods that never happens. Chesapeake bay is not the best party spot. I've had some fun up there with fishing tournaments though... some good after-parties (on land) and I won a few grand this year.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Most boat owners don't have the time or experience necessary to take a 600 mile trip.

What can you do in a weekend with your airplane? Travel. Sure taking rides gets old but put a dot on your map and draw a circle around the 2 hour flight radius of your airplane. See how many places you can go?

Don't tell me that weather does not affect boating plans. Maybe less so in a 45 twin diesel pilothouse, but in the last 10 years of family boat trips I can't remember a single one where weather has not caused unpleasant delays or otherwise at some point. And how about the one summer when a tropical depression formed over the coast of NC and hovered for two days pinning us down in a dumpy ICW location and soaking us thoroughly? This was super unpleasant even in a brand new 43' sailboat.

True, but a 1000 foot overcast day with 2 miles vis won't put a stop to boating. Takes a much larger weather event for the boat.

 

[denverpilot]

We use our hangar in much the same way. We party there several nights a week.

I'm always amazed by how seldom people use their hangars.

Two problems for us...

Our hangar is behind an automatic gate with card reader these days. Can't just invite folks over without running a shuttle service from the gate to the hangar. Vehicles must have a sticker to be out on the ramp, which requires an annual update to the Airport Authority on vehicle insurance (minimum $1M liability), and a fee.

Our hanger is just a T-hangar. Small, no power (unlit), beat up non-concrete floor... and nowhere to park vehicles, even if you could get them out there.

It's not much of a party place. It's an airplane box to protect the airplane, store a few things for the airplane, and that's about it.

We've talked about doing a BBQ, but it's a bigger undertaking than just "come on over to the hangar and meet us".

Murphy and others will jump in here and say to move out to KFTG, but that's not happenin'... even though it's cheaper, friendlier, and all sorts of other good stuff, it's also 1/2 hour or more out of our way, and we've become quite accustomed to that 10 minute drive to the airplane.

The way to stay at KAPA and also have a "party hangar" would be to buy one of the enormous ones that have doors through the airport fence and share it amongst multiple aircraft... which adds a lot of business side complexity and potential problems mixing aircraft and more owners. I know of one C-210 owner group that shares one of those big hangars with a Malibu or something like that... one of their members I know, jokes... "I'm really nervous moving a $1.5 million dollar airplane out of the way every time I want to get the 210 out when there's snow in front of the hangar."

 

[dell30rb]

True, but a 1000 foot overcast day with 2 miles vis won't put a stop to boating. Takes a much larger weather event for the boat.

Yeah but if the vis is 2 miles its probably raining and the day on the boat will be unpleasant. Even a nice 40+ footer gets real cramped with a family when its raining and there isn't much to do.

Don't get me wrong.. i've been sailing since I was 8 and I will continue to do so all my life. I've just been having more fun with the airplane lately.. as my current work / location is more restrictive to boating.

 

[Henning]

AOPA seems too caught up in itself to bother much with the low end of GA and the secondary aircraft market. Spending money to entice people to take up flying in a used twenty or thirty thousand dollar airplane does not seem like what AOPA is about at all. They seem more concerned with attracting wealthier people into GA. This is just the feeling I've gotten in the five years I was a member.

It also might just be a liability issue for them. What is safer, to promote taking up flying in a brand new airplane or encouraging people to take up flying in an old used airplane?

John

It's strictly about money, where does their income lie? With the guys who chisel prices and whine about every dime and say how "not worth" everything is, or the guys who go out and drop $50k on a panel and $2.5MM on a plane? Who do you think the advertisers pay to get in front of, dead beats or spenders?

If you want aviation to grow, you have to go out and spend money growing it, it's not up to anyone else.

 

[Tom-D]

That depends on your mission and your needs.

NOT really,, GPSs are a luxury not a requirement, If it has an ADF learn to use it, Pilots have been getting around in this ATC system long before GPS came along.

But on the other hand, I'd not be hauling a Loran around for long.

 

[DaleB]

I think one thing that keeps the GA pilot population low, and Mr. & Mrs. "reg'ler Amurican" out of it, is that there really is no way to "ease into" flying. And Jay, very few non-pilots have ever heard of AOPA... and I don't think you really want them spending what it would take for a national TV/radio/newspaper advertising campaign that might result in a .05% increase int eh number of private pilots.

If you think you want a boat, you can start out with a small, inexpensive one and some casual instruction from a friend. You can move up whenever you decide, gaining experience as you go along. Motorcycles? Take a 2-day MSC class, buy a used bike, see if you like it. If you're an average person, chances are you know a at least half a dozen people or more with a boat or a bike that can help you out along the way, tell you what to buy, where to go, etc.

If you want to try flying, it's going to take (relatively) a LOT of time, and a LOT of money spent on flying lessons, before you even get the chance to see if it's for you. You can't take the wife along for a weekend trip without ponying up a non-insignificant number of AMUs for training and rental. And chances are, if you're an average person, you know very close to zero pilots.

Now, I'm certainly not suggesting we let people fly with significantly less training. What I am saying is that some things can be tried out as a hobby, with a small monetary outlay and very little commitment -- compared to airplanes, the flying and ownership of which can only be described as a life event in terms of the cost and commitment needed. Hell, you'll lose half the potential pilot candidates when you mention that they can't fly within 8 hours after a beer.

I know a lot of casual boaters that own boats (usually little ones), and a lot of casual bikers who own bikes. I suspect the number of casual pilots who own aircraft is quite small.

 

[Henning]

I know a lot of casual boaters that own boats (usually little ones), and a lot of casual bikers who own bikes. I suspect the number of casual pilots who own aircraft is quite small.

I would suspect that in relation to the aircraft population, you would be incorrect on that. The fact that most planes are ramp queens that never move, it would indicate that they are all owned by 'casual pilots'. Next lets add up the parnerships. Most parnerships we hear reported have at least one if not a significant numbers of the partners flying 10 or less hours a year; again I would term that in the realm of 'casual pilots'. I would hazard a small wager that the number of active casual pilots who have an ownership stake (sole or partnership) in an aircraft is significant, and for those who are still flying some after 10 years, I would parlay ownership interest being among a majority of that group.

 

[dmccormack]

I would suspect that in relation to the aircraft population, you would be incorrect on that. The fact that most planes are ramp queens that never move, it would indicate that they are all owned by 'casual pilots'. Next lets add up the parnerships. Most parnerships we hear reported have at least one if not a significant numbers of the partners flying 10 or less hours a year; again I would term that in the realm of 'casual pilots'. I would hazard a small wager that the number of active casual pilots who have an ownership stake (sole or partnership) in an aircraft is significant, and for those who are still flying some after 10 years, I would parlay ownership interest being among a majority of that group.

I told my A&P that I only put 10 hours on the Chief in December and he laughed and said, "That's more hours than any other airplane on this field!"

 

[Anthony]

I told my A&P that I only put 10 hours on the Chief in December and he laughed and said, "That's more hours than any other airplane on this field!"

That is really sad, but I know that lonely feeling at the airport all too well.