The ATC hiring system

ArrowFlyer86

ArrowFlyer86

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Article: here (NYT)
Essentially "oh ****, we need to hire a lot of ATC!!!"

Quote:
"The F.A.A. requires controllers to retire at 56, though many become eligible years earlier."

(thus impacting their ridiculously low age cutoff for hiring)

Thought:
Idk who did that bargaining (the union?), but retire at 56?!? Ergo we won't hire people over, what, 30? Total bull****. It's a man made shortage.

Edit full disclosure: I would love to be ATC. But being almost 40, I'm pretty much a senile geriatric. I can operate an airplane hauling people, but it'd be bad to let me apply for ATC.
 
Initial Fix said:
Don’t forget they can retire then work in contract towers for what seems forever. Seems a bit duplicitous
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Why? Retired military (like myself) very often go back to work as a Fed GS employee or as a contractor, many times with the same organization they retired from. My point is it's very common.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
Article: here (NYT)
Essentially "oh ****, we need to hire a lot of ATC!!!"

Quote:
"The F.A.A. requires controllers to retire at 56, though many become eligible years earlier."

(thus impacting their ridiculously low age cutoff for hiring)

Thought:
Idk who did that bargaining (the union?), but retire at 56?!? Ergo we won't hire people over, what, 30? Total bull****. It's a man made shortage.

Edit full disclosure: I would love to be ATC. But being almost 40, I'm pretty much a senile geriatric. I can operate an airplane hauling people, but it'd be bad to let me apply for ATC.
Click to expand...
So, my oldest in interested in atc, so we've been getting kind of a deep dive into the hiring/ education process. Every controller we've talked to has said that by 56, they see the ability to do the job diminishing, to the point that the older controllers get put on less busy sectors or administrative jobs.

I was surprised to learn that even though the faa hired something like 1800 controllers last year, the net gain vs retirements was like 5. The biggest issue is that the washout rate for trainees is real close to 50%, and that's after a fair bit of cognitive screening. It's a tough job.
 
tsts4 said:
Why? Retired military (like myself) very often go back to work as a Fed GS employee or as a contractor, many times with the same organization they retired from. My point is it's very common.
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Exactly my point. The folks retiring early could easily continue working. And do so safely.
 
Initial Fix said:
Exactly my point. The folks retiring early could easily continue working. And do so safely.
Click to expand...

not at the same level of ability... not "easily"

There are physical realities of aging (I say this as someone that is, ahem, over 65), limitations, degradation.
 
Initial Fix said:
Exactly my point. The folks retiring early could easily continue working. And do so safely.
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I get your point but you used the term "duplicitous" and I took umbrage at that. There is nothing duplicitous whatsoever in what I and countless others have done after retiring from one form of Gov service and then transitioning to another.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
Article: here (NYT)
Essentially "oh ****, we need to hire a lot of ATC!!!"

Quote:
"The F.A.A. requires controllers to retire at 56, though many become eligible years earlier."

(thus impacting their ridiculously low age cutoff for hiring)
….
Click to expand...

Fed LEOs are mandatory retirement at 57. ATC also has to hold a Second Class medical and take a couple of years to fully train up.

Compare that to those enlisted ATC to retire from the military at 38-42 years old and the FAA can potentially get a decade or more out of their investment.

The real question to look at is attrition…how many hires make it thru training and then stay to retirement. On the military side, it’s a pretty low number. My guess is 30-40% of hires don’t make it thru training in any given year. NATCA says the overall ATC workforce shrunk by about 13% since 2010, so long term, it doesn’t appear the FAA is breaking even.
 
Jim K said:
So, my oldest in interested in atc, so we've been getting kind of a deep dive into the hiring/ education process. Every controller we've talked to has said that by 56, they see the ability to do the job diminishing, to the point that the older controllers get put on less busy sectors or administrative jobs.

I was surprised to learn that even though the faa hired something like 1800 controllers last year, the net gain vs retirements was like 5. The biggest issue is that the washout rate for trainees is real close to 50%, and that's after a fair bit of cognitive screening. It's a tough job.
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That’s one of the reasons why my brother retired. He could still keep up mentally with a high traffic workload, but that and overtime were taking its toll. He had no interest taking an admin job either. He’ll make a lot less (mid $90K) at a contract tower but the workload will be far easier.
 
What's the motivation for a kid to want to be a controller? You can't just hire any meathead off the street, so you have to offer something tangible to those with the aptitude to do the job. And I bet most of those kids are savvy enough to see the meat grinder schedule and say no thanks.

The FAA needs to hire some Gen Z (A?) influencers to go out on social media and make the the job look cool to their peers. :)
 
I
kayoh190 said:
What's the motivation for a kid to want to be a controller? You can't just hire any meathead off the street, so you have to offer something tangible to those with the aptitude to do the job. And I bet most of those kids are savvy enough to see the meat grinder schedule and say no thanks.

The FAA needs to hire some Gen Z (A?) influencers to go out on social media and make the the job look cool to their peers. :)
Click to expand...
I do think that making it more visible might help, although they get thousands of applications every time they open it. It seems like everyone we've met either had family in aviation or just got placed there in the military. We even have a couple Marine controllers here at cmi, which I didn't know was a thing.

My kid likes aviation but doesn't really want to be a pilot. She loves puzzles, which is what made me think to suggest it to her. She did a job shadow here at cmi and kind of fell in love with it. She also likes the idea of making a pretty good living without the college debt and years of schooling. She doesn't think she wants a family (at 17...), so the idea of moving and working weird schedules doesn't bother her.

I am worried if she has the self-motivation & confidence to get through the training. I'm thinking that going the military route would be very good for her.
 
kayoh190 said:
…
The FAA needs to hire some Gen Z (A?) influencers to go out on social media and make the the job look cool to their peers. :)
Click to expand...
You mean this ain’t working anymore?

70225f34742c31f27e69e9ef19cada5d.jpg
 
Jim K said:
I

I do think that making it more visible might help, although they get thousands of applications every time they open it. It seems like everyone we've met either had family in aviation or just got placed there in the military. We even have a couple Marine controllers here at cmi, which I didn't know was a thing.

My kid likes aviation but doesn't really want to be a pilot. She loves puzzles, which is what made me think to suggest it to her. She did a job shadow here at cmi and kind of fell in love with it. She also likes the idea of making a pretty good living without the college debt and years of schooling. She doesn't think she wants a family (at 17...), so the idea of moving and working weird schedules doesn't bother her.

I am worried if she has the self-motivation & confidence to get through the training. I'm thinking that going the military route would be very good for her.
Click to expand...
Sister's bf is now at C90 and he went the military route. He said his first deployment was Kuwait where it was 135f his first day there. His plan is early retirement and the fly something corporate in retirement.
 
kayoh190 said:
The FAA needs to hire some Gen Z (A?) influencers to go out on social media and make the the job look cool to their peers. :)
Click to expand...
I thought radar contact was doing that
 
Jim K said:
I

I do think that making it more visible might help, although they get thousands of applications every time they open it. It seems like everyone we've met either had family in aviation or just got placed there in the military. We even have a couple Marine controllers here at cmi, which I didn't know was a thing.

My kid likes aviation but doesn't really want to be a pilot. She loves puzzles, which is what made me think to suggest it to her. She did a job shadow here at cmi and kind of fell in love with it. She also likes the idea of making a pretty good living without the college debt and years of schooling. She doesn't think she wants a family (at 17...), so the idea of moving and working weird schedules doesn't bother her.

I am worried if she has the self-motivation & confidence to get through the training. I'm thinking that going the military route would be very good for her.
Click to expand...
Jarhead Controllers are a thing. There are two ex ones here, myself and @Velocity173. Your daughter loving to solve puzzles is a start. Solving the puzzle is what it’s all about. A fast moving puzzle. I remember saying to a buddy after my last shift when I retired “I’ll miss it, I always liked solving the puzzle.” Does she show signs of being a multi tasker? Can she keep track of more than one thing at a time, have her attention diverted and then get back to where she was? If so, she may like it.
 
luvflyin said:
Jarhead Controllers are a thing. There are two ex ones here, myself and @Velocity173. Your daughter loving to solve puzzles is a start. Solving the puzzle is what it’s all about. A fast moving puzzle. I remember saying to a buddy after my last shift when I retired “I’ll miss it, I always liked solving the puzzle.” Does she show signs of being a multi tasker? Can she keep track of more than one thing at a time, have her attention diverted and then get back to where she was? If so, she may like it.
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For some reason I thought you said you were Navy. Didn’t you say you were at North Island?
 
kayoh190 said:
What's the motivation for a kid to want to be a controller? You can't just hire any meathead off the street, so you have to offer something tangible to those with the aptitude to do the job. And I bet most of those kids are savvy enough to see the meat grinder schedule and say no thanks.

The FAA needs to hire some Gen Z (A?) influencers to go out on social media and make the the job look cool to their peers. :)
Click to expand...
You mean like this?
 
While I would like to have the knowledge base that working ATC would bring, no way would I want to have to deal with crowded skies full of Meathead pilots like me.
 
Jim K said:
I

I do think that making it more visible might help, although they get thousands of applications every time they open it. It seems like everyone we've met either had family in aviation or just got placed there in the military. We even have a couple Marine controllers here at cmi, which I didn't know was a thing.

My kid likes aviation but doesn't really want to be a pilot. She loves puzzles, which is what made me think to suggest it to her. She did a job shadow here at cmi and kind of fell in love with it. She also likes the idea of making a pretty good living without the college debt and years of schooling. She doesn't think she wants a family (at 17...), so the idea of moving and working weird schedules doesn't bother her.

I am worried if she has the self-motivation & confidence to get through the training. I'm thinking that going the military route would be very good for her.
Click to expand...
Yeah it’s a thing. Little bit more tactical stuff (field exercises) than the other services.

 
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Velocity173 said:
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I could tell they were a bit right of course at the beginning, those condominiums are on centerline. They made a big blob on the PAR, it was hard to track the target thru it. Old stuff, a CPN-4, I was there 75-77. They probably got much better Radar there now that solves that problem. It was a PAR Approach to Rwy 29 at North Island KNZY for anyone interested.
 
luvflyin said:
I could tell they were a bit right of course at the beginning, those condominiums are on centerline. They made a big blob on the PAR, it was hard to track the target thru it. Old stuff, a CPN-4, I was there 75-77. They probably got much better Radar there now that solves that problem. It was a PAR Approach to Rwy 29 at North Island KNZY for anyone interested.
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Satellite view looks like the standard FPN-63 PAR antenna. Same thing we had up the road at Miramar. Still old though. Think they started service in the late 70s. Apparently the Navy / Marines are currently replacing them with FPN-68s.
 
Velocity173 said:
Satellite view looks like the standard FPN-63 PAR antenna. Same thing we had up the road at Miramar. Still old though. Think they started service in the late 70s. Apparently the Navy / Marines are currently replacing them with FPN-68s.
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Is that the thing inside the corner at B2 and 18/36, that’s where the CPN-4 was. Or that Radome looking thing next to G about halfway between B2 and H?
 
tsts4 said:
Why? Retired military (like myself) very often go back to work as a Fed GS employee or as a contractor, many times with the same organization they retired from. My point is it's very common.
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That would be me as well. Retiring again next November. I can’t wait to brain dump all those frequencies, lengths, widths and most of all, dealing with those dumbass C-130 pilots
 
Timbeck2 said:
That would be me as well. Retiring again next November. I can’t wait to brain dump all those frequencies, lengths, widths and most of all, dealing with those dumbass C-130 pilots
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Ha! A million years ago when I was a kid there were only two things I wanted to do when I grew up — fly C130s for the RAAF (we used to see them all the time where I lived in Australia), or be a controller (a friend of the family worked in ATC in Sydney and I was once allowed to sit in with him in what must have been Sydney Approach or similar — I loved the problem-solving bits). Didn't become either, but hey, it could have been…
 
Timbeck2 said:
That would be me as well. Retiring again next November. I can’t wait to brain dump all those frequencies, lengths, widths and most of all, dealing with those dumbass C-130 pilots
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You’ll get bored like my brother did and then find some sleepy contract tower to work at. ;)
 
luvflyin said:
Is that the thing inside the corner at B2 and 18/36, that’s where the CPN-4 was. Or that Radome looking thing next to G about halfway between B2 and H?
Click to expand...
Not the radome thing. The corner at the intersection just NE of B2. That’s a FPN-63 PAR antenna.
 
One of my worst nightmares is I am being forced to be working as ATC...
 
Zeldman said:
One of my worst nightmares is I am being forced to be working as ATC...
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There are probably ways to end that employment:

"aircraft calling, say again, you were blocked"

"aircraft calling, say again, I was on the landline" (and then go back "on the landline")

"aircraft calling, proceed direct <holding point> and hold as depicted, EFC the 2nd tuesday of next week"

see how far out you can get a spam can to extend downwind before they ask if you forgot about them. take bets with the other controllers. Extra points if it's the only aircraft in the pattern.

see if any jet will take a short approach
 
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