Thank goodness for ADS-B in and Foreflight

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MattCW

Filing Flight Plan
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MattCW
This evening I did a quick proficiency flight to an airport ~33nm from my starting point. Coming back, it was after sunset, and according to ForeFlight, I could log 0.2 night hours, but no night landings. Either way, this is my third flight with my iPad, and only the second with it actually mounted. I scan the skies, and scan ForeFlight. On ForeFlight, I see an aircraft at about my 2 o'clock, a few hundred feet above, it's already yellow on FF, and I start looking for it visually and flicked my landing light on. I still don't see it visually, but I make a turn to the right (per the right of way rules) and about halfway through my "evasion" turn, there it is right in front of me, same altitude. Measuring on ADSB replay, we didn't get closer than 1.5nm, but that's plenty close enough for me. Looking at the ADSB replay some more at our altitudes, he must have just been a hair above my roof line. Also looking at ADSB, if I didn't turn, y'all would be having a more intense discussion in a different part of this forum. When I landed and was taxiing back, I also looked at the concrete and verified all my own lights were working. In many ways, this is a non-event, I saw traffic, I avoided traffic according to the right of way regulations, and no one said anything. But I'm still slightly concerned with just how much traffic can hide. I fly both C172s and a PA-28R and I've read up on how one of the most dangerous situations is a low wing descending into a high wing or vice versa. Today it was in front of me, maybe next time the traffic will be hiding behind a wing and won't pop out as quickly.

Something I've read and heard all along through my training (my instructors used their iPads a fair bit) is that ForeFlight is just another resource, it doesn't take the place of proper CRM such as visually scanning for traffic. Something that stuck out to me on my pre-solo check with another instructor was him grumbling that tower told another plane about traffic, and they said they had it on their iPad with no indication they visually had it. This is the first flight I've done solo in a busier corridor where traffic has actually been a concern. In addition to the above scenario, I used FF to help find other traffic. In fact on climbout, tower gave me an altitude restriction due to crossing traffic, then identified that traffic. Thanks to FF, I was able to spot it visually faster, report that to tower and that I'd pass behind them, and they promptly canceled my altitude restriction. I'm glad I had it today and I won't be fumbling with my iPad mount in the cockpit and be like "forget this" on future flights, it was too valuable. But, I do promise not to rely exclusively on it anymore than I rely exclusively on my attitude indicator, or altimeter, or vertical speed indicator, they all have their uses, so does ForeFlight. I think today was a good flight, I didn't necessarily learn anything that changes how I'll be flying, but did reinforce what I hope are some good habits I'm slowly developing. But I'm open to any feedback. For background, I'm a fairly low-time pilot, today's flight put me at 95TT, 26 PIC, 6 in this plane. I did my checkride in early October so I'm very green and still very much learning. Transitioning to learning on my own with my certificate has been a little scary, but loads of fun and I've got a long way to go.
 
MattCW said:
This evening I did a quick proficiency flight to an airport ~33nm from my starting point. Coming back, it was after sunset, and according to ForeFlight, I could log 0.2 night hours, but no night landings. Either way, this is my third flight with my iPad, and only the second with it actually mounted. I scan the skies, and scan ForeFlight. On ForeFlight, I see an aircraft at about my 2 o'clock, a few hundred feet above, it's already yellow on FF, and I start looking for it visually and flicked my landing light on. I still don't see it visually, but I make a turn to the right (per the right of way rules) and about halfway through my "evasion" turn, there it is right in front of me, same altitude. Measuring on ADSB replay, we didn't get closer than 1.5nm, but that's plenty close enough for me. Looking at the ADSB replay some more at our altitudes, he must have just been a hair above my roof line. Also looking at ADSB, if I didn't turn, y'all would be having a more intense discussion in a different part of this forum. When I landed and was taxiing back, I also looked at the concrete and verified all my own lights were working. In many ways, this is a non-event, I saw traffic, I avoided traffic according to the right of way regulations, and no one said anything. But I'm still slightly concerned with just how much traffic can hide. I fly both C172s and a PA-28R and I've read up on how one of the most dangerous situations is a low wing descending into a high wing or vice versa. Today it was in front of me, maybe next time the traffic will be hiding behind a wing and won't pop out as quickly.

Something I've read and heard all along through my training (my instructors used their iPads a fair bit) is that ForeFlight is just another resource, it doesn't take the place of proper CRM such as visually scanning for traffic. Something that stuck out to me on my pre-solo check with another instructor was him grumbling that tower told another plane about traffic, and they said they had it on their iPad with no indication they visually had it. This is the first flight I've done solo in a busier corridor where traffic has actually been a concern. In addition to the above scenario, I used FF to help find other traffic. In fact on climbout, tower gave me an altitude restriction due to crossing traffic, then identified that traffic. Thanks to FF, I was able to spot it visually faster, report that to tower and that I'd pass behind them, and they promptly canceled my altitude restriction. I'm glad I had it today and I won't be fumbling with my iPad mount in the cockpit and be like "forget this" on future flights, it was too valuable. But, I do promise not to rely exclusively on it anymore than I rely exclusively on my attitude indicator, or altimeter, or vertical speed indicator, they all have their uses, so does ForeFlight. I think today was a good flight, I didn't necessarily learn anything that changes how I'll be flying, but did reinforce what I hope are some good habits I'm slowly developing. But I'm open to any feedback. For background, I'm a fairly low-time pilot, today's flight put me at 95TT, 26 PIC, 6 in this plane. I did my checkride in early October so I'm very green and still very much learning. Transitioning to learning on my own with my certificate has been a little scary, but loads of fun and I've got a long way to go.
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Flight Following.
 
darthanubis said:
Flight Following.
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Flight following is great, I recommend always using FF when VFR of any significant distance. Really scary when using FF, panel ADSB, and flight following and still so difficult to visually find other craft. I prefer every possible resource to to increase my odds. When using all the available resources, you realize how many planes you’d never spot without all resources.
 
Flight Following is valid, I did consider it today, and I use it for longer flights, but by the time I could get it, I'd be half or three quarters of the way there or back. On my long solo XC, I was flying the same direction, but much further out, and I wasn't able to pickup flight following until I was over the airport I was heading to today, and that was in a much slower plane.
 
Flyer Scott said:
Flight following is great, I recommend always using FF when VFR of any significant distance. Really scary when using FF, panel ADSB, and flight following and still so difficult to visually find other craft. I prefer every possible resource to to increase my odds. When using all the available resources, you realize how many planes you’d never spot without all resources.
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It’s not one or the other. I mistook that for being obvious.
 
MattCW said:
Flight Following is valid, I did consider it today, and I use it for longer flights, but by the time I could get it, I'd be half or three quarters of the way there or back. On my long solo XC, I was flying the same direction, but much further out, and I wasn't able to pickup flight following until I was over the airport I was heading to today, and that was in a much slower plane.
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I wasn’t scolding you. Same thing happened to me after my checkride. I too am a low timer. I should have used flight following. We must strive to habitually use every tool at our disposal. Belated congrats on your certification pilot!
 
With 26 hours of PIC I’d classify you as an extremely low time pilot. Hours with an instructor don’t really help a ton with the scenarios you described. It’s stuff you don’t pick up until it’s you making the decisions and are the only eyes looking for the traffic.

Personally, I think you are on the right track. Enroute, adsb is an invaluable tool. However, too many pilots are relying on adsb data in the airport environment when they should be looking outside. The data / apps are not fast enough, and there are many planes out there that are not equipped, or it’s not working properly to rely on adsb in close quarters. You need to have your eyes outside, not looking at an iPad, when in, or entering, the pattern. JMO quick glances at it to try to find someone are fine, but 98% of your scan should be outside.
 
Salty said:
With 26 hours of PIC I’d classify you as an extremely low time pilot. Hours with an instructor don’t really help a ton with the scenarios you described. It’s stuff you don’t pick up until it’s you making the decisions and are the only eyes looking for the traffic.

Personally, I think you are on the right track. Enroute, adsb is an invaluable tool. However, too many pilots are relying on adsb data in the airport environment when they should be looking outside. The data / apps are not fast enough, and there are many planes out there that are not equipped, or it’s not working properly to rely on adsb in close quarters. You need to have your eyes outside, not looking at an iPad, when in, or entering, the pattern. JMO
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On the way back to base to land, one of our planes was on a long final, he was not on adsb. I heard the call but did not see him. I would have cancelled flight following by then. In my excitement after passing my checkride and not seeing him, I turned base forcing him to go around. He was so small he looked like a bird. On the ground is when I was informed of my offense. My excitement turned into shame and embarrassment. He was upset, but understanding and cool about it. I haven’t flown solo since. Went straight into IFR training. I don’t want to make any more mistakes. Keep your eyes peeled.
 
Not criticizing but how did you not see the other airplane when coming into the pattern and were they not making any radio calls? ADSB is great but too many pilots rely on it and forget that there are many planes still flying legally without it.
 
frfly172 said:
Adsb tells you where to look ,but you still need eyes outside the cockpit.
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Yup, as you suggested, the ADS-B info is just another tool to use...but, as the CFI that grumbled about the traffic being 'found on the Ipad', the Mark 1 eyeballs are what matters most. It is always "negative contact" until I see the other A/C with my own eyes. Being that ADS-B is not instantaneous data and shows nothing of the attitude of the A/C I would not want to attempt close in avoidance maneuvers based upon that data. I've had to do that once when a NORDO/ neg. ADS-B Cub decided to fly across the cross wind contrary to the pattern at 700-800' AGL. Thank goodness for that classic bright 'Cub' yellow standing out. I shouted traffic and nosed down/left to the surprise of my CFI...who saw the bogey a second later than I. He did not process why I made my control inputs for a moment and it shook him for a second. Later, in the FBO, he had a few slightly less than polite words for the pilot who could have cared less. They do exist....and some of them even fly planes!!!
 
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kmacht said:
Not criticizing but how did you not see the other airplane when coming into the pattern and were they not making any radio calls? ADSB is great but too many pilots rely on it and forget that there are many planes still flying legally without it.
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This wasn't in the pattern, this was mid-cruise. Class E airspace.
 
Some of you guys make me nervous:oops:

I think the scanning technique taught years ago might be a lost art ... I run Foreflight as well, take a glance and get an idea what is near the field at 5 miles out if needed, and eyes out after ...
 
danhagan said:
Some of you guys make me nervous:oops:

I think the scanning technique taught years ago might be a lost art ... I run Foreflight as well, take a glance and get an idea what is near the field at 5 miles out if needed, and eyes out after ...
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When I hear old guys key up on the mic, I get neverous. Yeah, they've got thousands of hours, but those eyes they have out the window, I don't know if they are as good as they used to be, or if their heart is going to hold up until touchdown. So much to be nervous about sharing the skies with GA pilots who may or may not be proficient. :dunno:
 
darthanubis said:
On the way back to base to land, one of our planes was on a long final, he was not on adsb. I heard the call but did not see him. I would have cancelled flight following by then. In my excitement after passing my checkride and not seeing him, I turned base forcing him to go around. He was so small he looked like a bird. On the ground is when I was informed of my offense. My excitement turned into shame and embarrassment. He was upset, but understanding and cool about it. I haven’t flown solo since. Went straight into IFR training. I don’t want to make any more mistakes. Keep your eyes peeled.
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Regardless you have more mistakes to make… the passion to eliminate them is a spot on goal though, but you will make more as we don’t tend to learn from our successes as much as our failures
 
kmacht said:
Not criticizing but how did you not see the other airplane when coming into the pattern and were they not making any radio calls? ADSB is great but too many pilots rely on it and forget that there are many planes still flying legally without it.
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I hear that a lot, but frankly if you operate from underneath a Class B, there are very very few aircraft that don’t have it.
 
darthanubis said:
When I hear old guys key up on the mic, I get neverous. Yeah, they've got thousands of hours, but those eyes they have out the window, I don't know if they are as good as they used to be, or if their heart is going to hold up until touchdown. So much to be nervous about sharing the skies with GA pilots who may or may not be proficient. :dunno:
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As one of those ”old guys”, my eyes passed the same test yours did but I do have thousands of PIC time and the experience that brings. You get nervous when I key up? If you think we cant estimate your hours, pretty accurately when you key up, and pray you’re going anywhere we’re not, you’re kidding yourself. you might want to add some humility there Maverick. Then try talking to one of us “old guys”. You’d be amazed how much you don’t know.
 
Joepilotmsp said:
As one of those ”old guys”, my eyes passed the same test yours did but I do have thousands of PIC time and the experience that brings. You get nervous when I key up? If you think we cant estimate your hours, pretty accurately when you key up, and pray you’re going anywhere we’re not, you’re kidding yourself. you might want to add some humility there Maverick. Then try talking to one of us “old guys”. You’d be amazed how much you don’t know.
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You'd think with all that experience, you'd have thicker skin than to be injured by the thoughts expressed by a low time know nothing. Your experience should also tell you, that hours doesn't speak to the quality of your experience. Humility indeed. I expressed no arrogance, just an impression from the little experience I have. So, not sure you meant the word "humility", it doesn't fit. You don't know who I speak with, my age, what I think I know or don't. With thousands of PIC time, I'd be embarrassed to respond to a low time pilot like you did. I'd need to express humility if I felt the need to impress a random internet poster with my resume, as though it meant anything. You can put it back in your pants, "Maverick". I'm not impressed.
 
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ADSB and ForeFlight can be annoying too. I had some dude on my left that I couldn’t see, so I couldn’t turn left. After awhile I was thinking he’d be blocking me for the next hour so I turned right 270 degrees and went behind him.

In the old days I would have never seen him, turned left, and (probably) missed him. No stress haha. Ignorance is bliss etc
 
dans2992 said:
I hear that a lot, but frankly if you operate from underneath a Class B, there are very very few aircraft that don’t have it.
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That’s a dangerous assumption and setting yourself up to have a bad and potentially lethal habit. You will carry that same assumption subconsciously even when outside class B and some day it may end up biting you. The worst part about ADSB is that it has taught pilots to look inside the cockpit not outside as their primary means of seeing other aircraft. They assume that they will see it first on their iPad before they see it with their own eyes and therefore rely on the iPad first. Most will deny it but it is unfortunately true.
 
I remember my older CFII telling me to turn on my landing light while we were flying. He said he doesn’t care if it burned out early in the flight school training 172.
When I got my 172 it had 2 lights, one taxi and one landing and of course the landing light burned out the first month I owned it even though I only used it for landing.
Went back and forth and decided on the hi dollar LED lights. So glad I did because that was 5 years ago and I have never turned off my taxi light. It is always on for safety. I have now flown it 1400 hours and both lights are still working.
When and if it burns out I will buy another one and keep it on full time. It was such a good investment.

Yes ADSB and ForeFlight has helped me avoid other planes that I don’t think even seen me.
Stay safe out there with your head on swivel.
 
I've also been thinking about an ADSB "save" that I had. Someone pulled out in front of me when I was on final and I had to go around. They didn't linger on the runway, so I sidestepped right and flew the upwind. About 30 seconds later, I lost sight of them (a high wing) because of my low wing. Knowing we were probably roughly the same speed, I turned right and climbed a to try to gain some distance and visibility to the aircraft climbing out when the ADSB alert went off, 6 o'clock, -200ft. The guy was nearly 1/2 mile off the runway centerline on departure and climbing toward me. Maybe too much right rudder?

I called being upwind again and not knowing where the departure traffic was, climbed even higher and got even further away until I could see him. I don't *think* we would have collided, but we were too close for me to be comfortable.
 
I was practicing aerobatics the other day and got a proximity warning. I usually don't run ADS-B when doing acro, but I had just finished an XC and left my stratux and phone installed, so I went ahead and turned on the map display. Freaked me out a bit, because I usually clear my practice area well. Fishbox showed the bogey 1k below me on my 6, less than 1mi away, just after doing an Immelman. I did a few 90 degree turns to spot him, but could not, and after 30 seconds he vanished. WTF?

A few maneuvers later, I did a spin, and he was back, this time 1k above me! Then he vanished again.

Turned out it was me. ADS-B update rate was too slow to keep up with rapid altitude changes, so it was reporting my location 30 seconds ago as a conflict with my current location.
 
Gary Ward said:
I remember my older CFII telling me to turn on my landing light while we were flying. He said he doesn’t care if it burned out early in the flight school training 172.
When I got my 172 it had 2 lights, one taxi and one landing and of course the landing light burned out the first month I owned it even though I only used it for landing.
Went back and forth and decided on the hi dollar LED lights. So glad I did because that was 5 years ago and I have never turned off my taxi light. It is always on for safety. I have now flown it 1400 hours and both lights are still working.
When and if it burns out I will buy another one and keep it on full time. It was such a good investment.

Yes ADSB and ForeFlight has helped me avoid other planes that I don’t think even seen me.
Stay safe out there with your head on swivel.
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I have wig-wag LED lights and I like to keep them on when in flight. Someone suggested they are too bright and could be distracting to others. I hope that's true ... :thumbsup:
 
Like everything else that is operated by excited electrons...it's a situational awareness tool. A very helpful one, of course. I've found many times where someone pops up on my traffic display and I struggle to find them visually. Sometimes it's because of the back drop. Sometimes because my display doesn't adequately adjust for wind correction. But when I'm running the beach and one of our local aerobatics is out playing, I can see where he's operating and stay well-clear without having to struggle looking for a plane that's varying altitudes by thousands of feet.
 
darthanubis said:
When I hear old guys key up on the mic, I get neverous. Yeah, they've got thousands of hours, but those eyes they have out the window, I don't know if they are as good as they used to be
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I am not sure what "neverous" means, but you don't have to worry about my eyes. I had cataract surgery, and my new lenses are really, really good.
 
kmacht said:
That’s a dangerous assumption and setting yourself up to have a bad and potentially lethal habit. You will carry that same assumption subconsciously even when outside class B and some day it may end up biting you. The worst part about ADSB is that it has taught pilots to look inside the cockpit not outside as their primary means of seeing other aircraft. They assume that they will see it first on their iPad before they see it with their own eyes and therefore rely on the iPad first. Most will deny it but it is unfortunately true.
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Ok… so who are these people flying with no ADSB? Piper Cubs with no electrical system? Ultralights? F16s? Gliders?

Those are basically the examples I can think of.
 
dans2992 said:
Ok… so who are these people flying with no ADSB? Piper Cubs with no electrical system? Ultralights? F16s? Gliders?

Those are basically the examples I can think of.
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It all depends on where you live and primarily fly. There isn't a single airport in the state I reside in that cannot be accessed without a transponder and ADSB. There are only a handful of places a person can't go in surrounding states as well. Because of this, I can think of plenty of aircraft that I have worked on since the mandate went into effect that are not compliant with ADSB requirements.

My own Super Cub has neither a transponder or ADSB so don't expect to find me on any of the in dash TVs or Foreflight. But not to worry, I'm likely flying at a lower altitude than most. About all I see down low are helicopters.
 
dans2992 said:
Ok… so who are these people flying with no ADSB? Piper Cubs with no electrical system? Ultralights? F16s? Gliders?

Those are basically the examples I can think of.
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My sonex has no ADSB. Neither does the cub I got my tail wheel endorsement in. I’m in Ct right between the busy New York and Boston airspace with a class C at Bradley right in the middle. You would be surprised at how much airspace is out there that doesn’t require a transponder or ADSB to be in. I flew from Ct to Oshkosh one year all without a transponder or ADSB. There are far more airplanes flying without modern equipment like ADSB than you think.
 
RyanB said:
How’s that work?
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Let's review the regs. In order to log night flight time, it must be between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight. This varies with the date and location.

In order to log a night landing for passenger currency, it must be at least one hour after sundown and one hour before sunrise. There may be as much as 20 minutes or so between the end of evening civil twilight and the hour after sundown, when the pilot can log night flight but not count the landing for night currency.
 
darthanubis said:
You'd think with all that experience, you'd have thicker skin than to be injured by the thoughts expressed by a low time know nothing. Your experience should also tell you, that hours doesn't speak to the quality of your experience. Humility indeed. I expressed no arrogance, just an impression from the little experience I have. So, not sure you meant the word "humility", it doesn't fit. You don't know who I speak with, my age, what I think I know or don't. With thousands of PIC time, I'd be embarrassed to respond to a low time pilot like you did. I'd need to express humility if I felt the need to impress a random internet poster with my resume, as though it meant anything. You can put it back in your pants, "Maverick". I'm not impressed.
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So you can’t see where “cringing when old guy keys up, degraded eyesight,not to mention hearts about to blow out. ”. If you can’t see how that is condescending and arrogant at your age,aint Much to do with that. Well except point out old guys and ladies pass the same medical exam you do. Probably more often than you. I realize a nugget are gods gift to aviation, us old codgers should just get out of the new hot shots do your thing. I mentioned hours because you brought it up. Sorry that made you feel so inferior, might want to talk to someone about that…
If my eyesight is slightly degraded, my skill set gleaned from real world flying makes up for it. For projecting thin skin, you sure got your knickers in a knot. So if your little feelings got hurt, better get to your safe space Mav. As for this conversation, it’s run its course. Departing the pattern to the…..oh East I guess. Happy landings
 
MattCW said:
... Something I've read and heard all along through my training (my instructors used their iPads a fair bit) is that ForeFlight is just another resource, it doesn't take the place of proper CRM such as visually scanning for traffic. ...
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Indeed. Flight Following and ADS-B In are both GOOD THINGS but you cannot rely on them. FF won't always call out traffic for you (nor will Approach or Tower), and airplanes don't always show up on ADS-B In. Use them as secondary safety aids but don't become complacent or bet your life on them. Eyeballs out the window, see and avoid, is still primary.
 
Joepilotmsp said:
Snip. TLDR
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frfly172 said:
Adsb tells you where to look ,but you still need eyes outside the cockpit.
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Yep, this is the bottom line. Enroute, ADS-B and Flight Following give you a heads up to look harder and focus your scan on a patch of sky.
Arriving and departing, your radio and knowledge of the pattern do that. Like any other instrument, it should be part of your scan, not fixated on. Though TBH I think that is a bit of a red herring, as I have never heard anyone advocate for fixation.
 
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