Testing after upgrade

flyingcheesehead

flyingcheesehead

Taxi to Parking
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
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Location
UQACY, WI
Display Name
iMooniac
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KUES/KMKE
Hi all,

Does anyone have any sort of checklist for things to test when your plane comes out of the shop after an avionics upgrade? I've gone through the manuals and I have some items, but I'm wondering if anyone has done this before and can give me some more ideas.

Thanks!
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Hi all,

Does anyone have any sort of checklist for things to test when your plane comes out of the shop after an avionics upgrade? I've gone through the manuals and I have some items, but I'm wondering if anyone has done this before and can give me some more ideas.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

All the buttony and knobby thingies. And I would think some of the basic functions and features that made u get the upgrade to begin with.
 
eman1200 said:
All the buttony and knobby thingies. And I would think some of the basic functions and features that made u get the upgrade to begin with.
Click to expand...

Of course. I'm pretty confident in those as it is, the avionics shop I use is excellent.

I'm thinking of more obscure stuff like "did the music input in the back seat get hooked up to Music 2 on the new audio panel" and that sort of thing.

FWIW, here's what I've got so far - mainly things related to configuration and installation. The upgrade is adding GTN 750, GMA 350c, GTX 345, and FlightStream 210, along with some extras like new coax to com antennas to be sure things work well for another 21 years!

Music 1 (panel) and Music 2 (back seat) jacks
Speaker
3D audio
Voice control/PTC
Traffic (750 and iPad)
Weather (750 and iPad)
XPDR Flight ID and 1090ES TX CTRL configured to on
Static Air Temp on GTX ALT page
Attitude on iPad from GTX
Flight plan transfer - both directions

So, what am I missing?
 
Mine is in right now, and I'm thinking about it carefully. My first flight is going to orbit the airport where its located until I'm certain everything is in order. It will be a very careful flight indeed, as are all my post maintenance flights. My hope is the avionics guy will come up with me, so he can power up all the new toys and make certain all of them work and none of them start any fires. My biggest worry is learning how to work everything without loosing situational awareness. I'll undoubtedly take a safety pilot with me on those flights. I'm not doing quite the upgrade as Ken, I'm just getting an IFR GPS, new radio and ADSB transponder. But learning what switches what on where will take a few minutes at least.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Of course. I'm pretty confident in those as it is, the avionics shop I use is excellent.

I'm thinking of more obscure stuff like "did the music input in the back seat get hooked up to Music 2 on the new audio panel" and that sort of thing.

FWIW, here's what I've got so far - mainly things related to configuration and installation. The upgrade is adding GTN 750, GMA 350c, GTX 345, and FlightStream 210, along with some extras like new coax to com antennas to be sure things work well for another 21 years!

Music 1 (panel) and Music 2 (back seat) jacks
Speaker
3D audio
Voice control/PTC
Traffic (750 and iPad)
Weather (750 and iPad)
XPDR Flight ID and 1090ES TX CTRL configured to on
Static Air Temp on GTX ALT page
Attitude on iPad from GTX
Flight plan transfer - both directions

So, what am I missing?
Click to expand...
Even excellent shops can have a bad day.

The ADS-b verification is an afterflight check item. The FAA side is all automated now and is simple to do.
Check of sidetone levels (shop didn't bother to set when SL-30 was installed)
Check of nav volume levels - you already mentioned the speaker
Check for stereo vs mono on audio jacks - just make it part of testing all headphone jacks
Review all placards in cockpit so you catch anything that "disappeared" during the work

I suspect you've got some sort of GPSS with the 750 so you'll want to go through all autopilot and GPS modes. (Maybe that's covered in your "of course" above).

Then check function of all the stuff that wasn't touched by the upgrade. It's always interesting to find out what got broke...
 
Clark1961 said:
Even excellent shops can have a bad day.

The ADS-b verification is an afterflight check item. The FAA side is all automated now and is simple to do.
Check of sidetone levels (shop didn't bother to set when SL-30 was installed)
Check of nav volume levels - you already mentioned the speaker
Check for stereo vs mono on audio jacks - just make it part of testing all headphone jacks
Review all placards in cockpit so you catch anything that "disappeared" during the work

I suspect you've got some sort of GPSS with the 750 so you'll want to go through all autopilot and GPS modes. (Maybe that's covered in your "of course" above).

Then check function of all the stuff that wasn't touched by the upgrade. It's always interesting to find out what got broke...
Click to expand...

Good stuff Clark, exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for!

I got about 45 minutes with the plane before the shop closed tonight. Going back Wednesday to finish up and do the GPS test flight.

The GMA 350c makes the mono/stereo test easy: Just turn 3D Audio on and you hear "3D Audio Left" in the left ear followed by "3D Audio Right" in the right ear. Anything else, and you have a problem. (So far, so good.)

We still have the original panel with all of the required placards painted on.

Believe it or not, no GPSS... Yet. We passed on a couple of things this time with an eye toward the "second half" of the upgrade happening in 2-3 years after the market has shaken out a little. We expect to install a G500 TXi, a glass backup display, and potentially a GFC 500 autopilot, should the G500 TXi get the software to control it. So, this time around we only got things that we expect will work with that sort of setup, and didn't add anything that would be replaced in such a setup (newer engine monitor, GPSS, data logger, etc). But, we'll definitely give the autopilot a workout - All modes, plus a pair of fully coupled approaches.

Old panel:
N97ST panel 2.jpg

New panel:
FullSizeRender 2.jpg

Can't wait to get out and fly it! :)
 
Mooney drivers. Put a damn TV in the panel and they think it's an excuse to go fly.
 
Clark1961 said:
Mooney drivers. Put a damn TV in the panel and they think it's an excuse to go fly.
Click to expand...
Don't need a stinking TV in the panel for an excuse to fly mine.

And of course I guaranteed good weather for my whole stinking area by leaving it in the avionics shop.
 
Try to take out as many non-system variables as possible-weather, heavy traffic day like a local home football game, have lots of fuel. Also, call the tower and tell them what you plan to do and when and see if they have any concerns.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Good stuff Clark, exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for!

I got about 45 minutes with the plane before the shop closed tonight. Going back Wednesday to finish up and do the GPS test flight.

The GMA 350c makes the mono/stereo test easy: Just turn 3D Audio on and you hear "3D Audio Left" in the left ear followed by "3D Audio Right" in the right ear. Anything else, and you have a problem. (So far, so good.)

We still have the original panel with all of the required placards painted on.

Believe it or not, no GPSS... Yet. We passed on a couple of things this time with an eye toward the "second half" of the upgrade happening in 2-3 years after the market has shaken out a little. We expect to install a G500 TXi, a glass backup display, and potentially a GFC 500 autopilot, should the G500 TXi get the software to control it. So, this time around we only got things that we expect will work with that sort of setup, and didn't add anything that would be replaced in such a setup (newer engine monitor, GPSS, data logger, etc). But, we'll definitely give the autopilot a workout - All modes, plus a pair of fully coupled approaches.

Old panel:
View attachment 58277

New panel:
View attachment 58278

Can't wait to get out and fly it! :)
Click to expand...

Looks great!

GFC500 -- Would be a miracle if that make/model airplane is ever approved for it. Right now all the Beech owners are stuck with the GFC600 for a bout twice the money. Pretty clear financial positioning by Garmin I'd say.
 
bnt83 said:
Looks great!

GFC500 -- Would be a miracle if that make/model airplane is ever approved for it. Right now all the Beech owners are stuck with the GFC600 for a bout twice the money. Pretty clear financial positioning by Garmin I'd say.
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I'm with you. The GFC500 should fully be able to work in his plane and even light twins I'm guessing. I too think Garmin is going to make the option for more capable planes only the 600. It's a shame because already having the G5, I would buy the 500 the first day eligible but won't for the 600. I will probably just wait to see what Dynon/others comes up with or if STEC starts slashing prices to compete.
 
Download the installation manual for the"tv".
It has a detailed list of post install checklist items.
 
bnt83 said:
Looks great!

GFC500 -- Would be a miracle if that make/model airplane is ever approved for it. Right now all the Beech owners are stuck with the GFC600 for a bout twice the money. Pretty clear financial positioning by Garmin I'd say.
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm very happy with it so far! I really like the voice control ("Telligence") through the audio panel. It makes doing some things on the GTN way faster.

I'm totally with you on the GFC500. They didn't commit to approving it for my plane... However, I do have the advantage that all Mooney M20 models (which is just about all of them, excepting the Mite, Pressurized Mooney, and Mooney-built Ercoupes) are on the same type certificate, so the FAA puts them all on the AML together. Nobody's going to buy a $22K autopilot for a $40K M20C... So they either approve all Mooneys regardless of performance, or they miss out on a lot of sales.

At the end of the day, Garmin's choice is whether they sell me a GFC 500, or nothing. I'm not dropping the kind of coin necessary to get a GFC 600 because I can keep the KFC 150 running for a LONG time with that kind of dough. Same thing with getting the TXi to drive the GFC 500 (which currently requires a G5)... And, for that matter, getting the G5 certified as a backup display for the TXi.

If things stay as they are today, we would probably get a G500 TXi (Dynon will still be on the list if things don't change too) and keep the KFC 150. We would have to get a backup display from elsewhere (Sandia?), and we would need the GAD43e ($) to talk to the KFC150. However, if Garmin can get the G5 certified as a backup, puts the M20 series on the GFC500 AML, and adds software to the G500 TXi to drive the GFC500, then we can get a G5 as our backup and ditch the KFC150 in favor of the GFC500 for not much more, since we would no longer need the $5K GAD43e. So, if those things happen, Garmin gets our business for sure, and more of it. (I hope they take my money and give it to @Ted DuPuis so he can turn it into noise and happy puppies. :)
 
So I did fly with my avionics guy on Wednesday, and there's only one thing that I couldn't get to work: Getting AHRS from the GTX345 through the FlightStream 510 to ForeFlight. In ForeFlight's Devices, if I open the FlightStream it does say "attitude" under capabilities, but there was a spot above that, right under the GPS Source, where it said something about "Attitude from access point: No" or something like that.

Does anyone have this sort of setup? GTX 345/GTN/FlightStream 510/ForeFlight, with the GTX Bluetooth disabled and everything running through the 510? Can you get the attitude to work? Thanks!
 
flyingcheesehead said:
So I did fly with my avionics guy on Wednesday, and there's only one thing that I couldn't get to work: Getting AHRS from the GTX345 through the FlightStream 510 to ForeFlight. In ForeFlight's Devices, if I open the FlightStream it does say "attitude" under capabilities, but there was a spot above that, right under the GPS Source, where it said something about "Attitude from access point: No" or something like that.

Does anyone have this sort of setup? GTX 345/GTN/FlightStream 510/ForeFlight, with the GTX Bluetooth disabled and everything running through the 510? Can you get the attitude to work? Thanks!
Click to expand...

flyingcheesehead said:
Sounds like this is a Garmin software bug: https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=146255

Glad it's not operator error. ;)
Click to expand...

Just a note. Someone posted the firmware version necessary to fix that bug here in another thread, if you didn’t see it. So you can go get it fixed now if you like. :)
 
denverpilot said:
Just a note. Someone posted the firmware version necessary to fix that bug here in another thread, if you didn’t see it. So you can go get it fixed now if you like. :)
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I hadn't seen that until you posted this - Thanks! :)

I don't have nearly as much PoA time as I used to. There's two more people in my house now than there used to be... One's good-looking and very friendly, the other is also good-looking but very small and speaks gibberish. ;)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I hadn't seen that until you posted this - Thanks! :)

I don't have nearly as much PoA time as I used to. There's two more people in my house now than there used to be... One's good-looking and very friendly, the other is also good-looking but very small and speaks gibberish. ;)
Click to expand...

Yeah no worries that’s what I figured. And you probably didn’t see the stupid question I sent you via a different messaging system either but I already answered it. Haha. Well I think so anyway.

Debating Flightstream 210 and 510. We realized we forgot it on our avionics quote. You have the 510, and a couple other people we mutually know have the 210.

Sounds like the 510 is the way to go if the firmware is finally out under the STC. It’s kinda like never-ending iOS updates as someone else mentioned, same deal. Ha. Update update update. Oh... there it kinda works right again! Don’t touch it. Haha.
 
Outside from what you said,

Basic VOR check with both navcoms
Make sure it'll fly a coupled to a coupled ILS and LPV
Id also make sure your compass is still correct with all that electronic differences behind your panel


Interesting choice to go with the new audio panel and iPad stuff yet skip GPSS, was this a plane that's not intended for much single pilot IMC?
 
James331 said:
Interesting choice to go with the new audio panel and iPad stuff yet skip GPSS, was this a plane that's not intended for much single pilot IMC?
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He’s probably putting kiddo to sleep but I know he flies IMC quite a bit, and he’s also quite proficient hand flying the airplane.

From other posts he’s made and conversations I can tell he’s doing the upgrades in two phases.

He’s mentioned the difficulty of getting certified stuff for Mooneys in the past. Some of this is manufacturer STC timing. He wants more glass than a G5 setup will provide, I can tell. He likes glass. :)

He’s waiting on Garmin to see what they’re going to do with the 500 series methinks. And where their AP certification goes.

Honestly we are in nearly the same boat but we do like the G5. We’re doing the Center stack and adding the GTN 650 and moving radios around but we’ll be steam in the center until a few things occur...

a) We decide to blow more money. LOL
b) Some of this silliness with firmware and interfacing settles down on the G5 platform overall.
c) Garmin and others have some time to get their A/P stuff certified and real world price numbers out.

Eventually our Cessna/ARC 200 S-turn maker needs to go. As probably do the vacuum gyros for the most part. But there’s little point in throwing good money after bad to mess with it until this stuff shakes out a bit more.

The center stack is pretty settled in. It’s Garmin or Avidyne for IFR. We chose Garmin. The six pack area is still up for grabs by a number of competitors. And the retrofit certified A/P world hasn’t had a pulse in decades, but finally is starting to. Competition even. The flight instruments chosen can affect A/P choice heavily.

So. We wait. Gyros are cheap and simple to fix and we get an AHRS on the iPad with the 345 so there’s a little more backup than we ever had. A lot more really.

By the way, you’ll clearly note I didn’t mention Bendix/King anywhere in this post. They’re insane still. Pricing is way too high and their products are, well... yikes. The user interface on that GPS they make is god awful, I’ve tried it, and they’re just lost in the Honeywell wilderness somewhere. Maybe they’ll be back someday, but I doubt it. Not in light GA anyway.

Fun times to see what’s going to happen in retrofit avionics for certified light aircraft.
 
James331 said:
Interesting choice to go with the new audio panel and iPad stuff yet skip GPSS, was this a plane that's not intended for much single pilot IMC?
Click to expand...

No, there's plenty of single pilot IMC in this bird. However, this is "phase 1" of the upgrade. Phase 2 will be a G500 TXi and, if Garmin gets the GFC 500 certified for the Mooney and able to be driven by the G500 TXi instead of just the G5, maybe one of those too. Vacuum system will go away.

That will give us GPSS and an engine monitor, which is why we did not do anything with those this time around.

There's just too much going on with retrofit glass right now to have been able to put anything in right away, but we felt it was time to at least do the ADS-B (and we did get it done just in time for the $500 rebate).

So, we pretty much left the left-hand side of the panel alone except for removing the Argus "moving map"/eRMI. We pulled the 89B, a KX155, KR87, KN64, KMA24, DRE intercom, and GTX327 and all of the various buttons/switches/annunciators associated with that stuff. The KX165 got moved to the right-hand stack, the slaving unit got moved to where the Argus used to be so we could cut the panel at the top of the center stack and move things up so the GTN750 will line up better with the eventual G500TXi. Then, we added the GMA350c (and push-to-command buttons on both yokes), GTN750, GTX345, and FlightStream 510. There are some black panels used to plug holes where stuff used to be, but when we do the TXi we'll get a whole new left-hand panel, color-match the existing parts, and paint it all.

I really hope Garmin can make the GFC 500 work for us... We might even remove the KX165 next time and be completely rid of King. As I said elsewhere, they're trying really hard to go the way of Narco, with utterly ridiculous repair prices and trying to bring all repairs in-house.
 
Some conversation in another thread has brought to my attention that some people might like to see some pictures of what things looked like during the process as well, because frankly, it looks pretty damn scary. They practically tear the whole bird apart! :eek:

So, here we go.

Before:
n97st-panel-2-jpg.58277


Building the harness:
IMG_9339.JPG

Harness and connectors, when not attached to the racks:
img_1150-png.59685


Test fit of all the equipment in the racks (not perfect, but everything was resolved before final install):
IMG_0189.JPG

Initial power-on... No magic smoke! :)
IMG_1047.JPG

And the finished product:
fullsizerender-2-jpg.58278
 

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OK, so there's a problem with the "More Options..." when editing and I can't add any more pics. So here's the rest... Mostly in the "OMFG that's a lot of wire" department, along with possibly the world's first through-the-panel selfie:

IMG_1135.png IMG_1140.png IMG_1143.png IMG_1145.png IMG_1149.png
 
Dang..i.missed the boat on thru the panel selfie

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
Those new garmin connectors are so much easier to deal with its not even funny. In fact, I bought a GMA connector kit when I was installing a brand new PMA8000BT.

I think the only thing I would do different is use 24 gauge wiring for all the audio circuits. The 22 gauge stuff just makes the harness that much more bulky.
 

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Too bad these things can't just use a single USB cable
 
James331 said:
Too bad these things can't just use a single USB cable
Click to expand...

Meh... Lots of the newer stuff can interface together with Ethernet cables. For example, hooking a GTN750 to a G500 TXi, I believe is just a simple Ethernet cable.

But that's because it's all going to the same place. With something like an audio panel, those different wires are going to be going all over the plane. And while I bet the interface boxes (GADxxx) probably connect via easy means like Ethernet or just sitting on the back of other boxes, all of the analog "stuff" coming off of them is going all over the place too.

Just thinking about the GTN 750 in my installation - It's wired to:
  1. GPS antenna
  2. Com antenna
  3. Nav antenna
  4. Audio Panel
  5. Fuel Flow
  6. Autopilot
  7. HSI
  8. Transponder
So, at least 8 "USB cables" - And if you put those all together, they'd make a way thicker wire bundle than there already is! :o

I think that Garmin may be using CANbus for some things which also simplifies things, but there are an awful lot of things in aviation that need their own dedicated circuits because they are time-sensitive, or need to interface with older analog equipment.
 
The Ethernet cables used in Garmin avionics is terminated exactly the same way as the rest of the avionics wiring. There are no RJ jacks on any of these.
 
I learned the hard way to check serial numbers of equipment that is staying in the plane and not being upgraded (write down beforehand and check afterward). Including remote compasses, remote gyros, and the like. :(
 
wsuffa said:
I learned the hard way to check serial numbers of equipment that is staying in the plane and not being upgraded (write down beforehand and check afterward). Including remote compasses, remote gyros, and the like. :(
Click to expand...

Seriously? Some shop swapped out your stuff? Sheesh.
 
denverpilot said:
Seriously? Some shop swapped out your stuff? Sheesh.
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Yes. Remote gyro. Had drifting issues coming out of 4 Corners and had shop look at it. Serial number did not match the paperwork. I suspect, but can't prove, that it was the shop that installed the 430. The other parts of the HSI were correct, and there were no entries in the log to show any repairs prior. The overhaul shop said it was full of cheap "Radio Shack" quality stuff and there were bad solder joints.

Four Corners is not the place you want to depart IFR with the HSI drifting 30+ degrees off course. Fortunately, the GPSS did it's job properly.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Sounds like this is a Garmin software bug: https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=146255

Glad it's not operator error. ;)
Click to expand...

So, the 2.10 software for the GTX 345 finally got certified, avionics shop put it in last week, attitude works like a charm now. :)

BTW, I have to put in some kudos here, especially after seeing some frustrations in other threads. Pete Halbauer and Skycom Avionics at Waukesha (KUES) are truly excellent. They got my plane done for pretty much exactly what we were quoted*, in exactly the amount of calendar time stated, the quality of the work is top notch, not a single thing was wrong with it (but for the Garmin software issue mentioned above, obviously not their fault), and we got frequent, clear communication about the status throughout. Tom did most of the work and took time to explain things when I went to visit during the process, and they have a great component guy (Jim) that got the remaining King radio working like it was brand new.

They're not the cheapest shop around, but in the case of avionics, "cheap" rarely is. They do great work and stand behind it, and I'm glad we have them on the field. Can't recommend them enough. Also had the club's DA40/G1000 GTX 345R install done there and will have the club's Archer GTX 345 install done there soon.

* I think the only deviation from the quote was that they discovered one of our com antennas was bad and replaced it, with prior permission.
 
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