Tesla Trolling

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by denverpilot, May 20, 2018.

  1. deonb

    deonb Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Aww. 3.7 seconds. That's cute. I remember when that used to be fast...

    But mostly, those are all 2 door vehicles. It's not really a comparison. It's the same old "Why buy a Cirrus for $500k, when you can buy a Cub for $50k" argument.
     
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  2. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Your electric car goes 2,000Mi and 200MPH and can be fueled at any gas station?

    Also the acceleration of electric is great, but they don't do well in the corners of in stopping with the weight of the batteries.

    Energy per pound of batt vs fuel just doesn't work, maybe in the future, but that future ain't now.
     
  3. deonb

    deonb Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    The charging station for all of that is your home. The charging station at Auburn Mall is useless to you for basically any purpose - it's too close. If you can't charge at your home, then you don't buy an EV. Period. Only environmental nutcases would do that.

    More curious what the 516 mile trip to your inlaws are though?
     
  4. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    My point exactly.
     
  5. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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  6. deonb

    deonb Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Anything more than 100 MPH is useless to me. And you may think "can be fueled at any gas station" is a plus, but it's not.

    If I offer a cellphone to you with an amazing battery that lasts 2 weeks, but every 2 weeks you have to go to an AT&T store to recharge it for 5 minutes, would you still think it was such a great thing?

    So why do you purposefully want a car that work like that?

    Until Chevron offers to run a gasoline line straight to my house, I'm not going back.
     
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  7. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    So you don't pay electrical at your house? You're on a different plain of existence where power is free??
    Is your tesla fueled for free by your ideals or something?
    Dude...that juice comes from somewhere, and it's not somewhere you'd want to have your million dollar house next to.

    And if going over 100mph doesn't matter, than really who needs to go from 0-60 in under 6 seconds? I mean that would be like exhibition of speed or something wouldn't it???
    Come on now don't BS a BSer, don't talk to me about performance than dismiss top end or corners or 60-0

    And YES being able to refuel/recharge/reWhatever your transportation in more places IS A BIG DEAL. I mean come on lol
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
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  8. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    Ahh yes. Your “clear eyes” that are the “80%” (hardly) are on a “side”. Gee, that explains a bunch.

    Turning me into your (fake) opponent doesn’t work with me, sorry. I don’t play identity politics.

    Tesla will succeed or circle the bowl just fine without me, either way. I’m not out to impress people with any fake holier-than-thou like you are.

    Last I checked “we” don’t have to “fix” anything, they do. I don’t work for Tesla and neither do you.

    Care to address the video’s business discussion? Even watch it yet? Too busy being on a “side”?
     
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  9. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    That’s what the bonanza is for.
     
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  10. deonb

    deonb Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Could care less how much it costs. (It works out to be half of the price of gas, but that's neither here nor there).

    The actual act of going to a gas station - 5 minutes there, 5 minutes to fill up, 5 minutes back every week or two is insane to me. You're just used to it. Frog in hot water.

    That's why I put it in perspective of a phone. Would you make a 15 minute trip to a phone store every 2 weeks to charge a phone when you can just charge it at home instead?

    Sure, on the performance it's very specific. It's more about pulling G's than anything else. And a Model S/X/3 isn't designed really for performance. The Roadster is. For the others it's just a side effect of what you get when you put a massive battery in a car - you can draw a lot of power from it. So it's cool - but it's not meant for racing. If you don't even care about the cool factor, you can buy the $80k model - you're the one who brought up the $100k, and I simply said the difference is performance. Ok, let me be more specific - the difference is kilowatts.

    And like I've said before - I've never driven in my life to any location that isn't not covered by the charging network. Maybe I'll feel different if I ever plan to take a road trip to Alaska.
     
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  11. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    You evil avgas burning person you. You aren’t with @lolachampcar ‘s 80%.

    You must join the collective. :)
     
  12. Tj1376

    Tj1376 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Electric just isn’t there yet.

    My buddy and I went to Lincoln for a Huskers game. Weather was bad and had to drive and this was an impromptu trip.

    We were going to take his Tesla X, but it won’t get there and back on a single charge. And Lincoln doesn’t have the charging infrastructure for his Tesla. So we crammed four adults in my Chevy Volt and got just shy of 60mpg round trip.

    It’s still not ideal, I would have loved to have traveled more on electricity, but when I ran out of juice the gas engine kicked in.

    Best of both worlds.

    And for my 37 miles commute to the office it’s 100 percent electric. Plug in at work and it’s 100 percent electric back to the house.

    Best of both worlds. :)

    TJ


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  13. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route PoA Supporter

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    That 10 minutes every two weeks (or 5 minutes a week, for me) is a lot less time than you'll spend plugging and unplugging your electric vehicle at every opportunity. Electric car folks can't afford to head out on a 75 mile trip with the "gas needle" pointed at 1/8. I can.
     
  14. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You're not exactly selling the brand

    So it's not a performance car

    If you're "out of network" it isn't good

    It's expensive.


    Sounds a lot like "If you like your vette, you can keep your vette" :cornut:
     
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  15. deonb

    deonb Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Lincoln, NE? There's a Supercharger in Lincoln on N. 27th street...
     
  16. Tj1376

    Tj1376 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    No where even close to where we were going. And nobody wants to sit for an hour when we could sit for five mins putting gas in the tank.

    TJ


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  17. deonb

    deonb Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    My plugging in/out takes 5 seconds per day at most. That's 30 minutes per year in total, plugging in every day.

    5 minutes per week is still 4 hours per year. And that assumes you don't take longer than a 1 minute drive/detour to get to your gas station, otherwise it doesn't take just 5 minutes...
     
  18. Tj1376

    Tj1376 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Also- that supercharger currently shows as offline. I wouldn’t bet on it being usable if I was going to drive 200 miles to get there. Range of the X at hwy speeds is about 210 miles at 80mph.

    TJ


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  19. Hank S

    Hank S En-Route

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    Nah, you're just wrong. I stopped for 14.5 gal on my way home from work tonight. Total distance off of my direct route home was about 30 yards, 15 yards to the pump and 15 yards back to the road. Time spent "going to the gas station"? I'll be generous and call it 30 seconds drive time and 5 minutes to fill up. How long to get your electric car (of any brand) from the "low charge" warning light to 100%? Just give the hours and minutes, I'll figure the percentage increase in fueling time.
     
  20. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    Mmm. Kirkland jeans, New Balance shoes, a ‘Vette, and the ticky-tacky suburban house with annoying HOA. All the while lecturing everyone else they need to get with the program.

    The daughter learned at school that we’re all supposed to be “green” and Elon Musk went on TV claiming he was, so that must be the answer. Buy his crap. Trade in that ‘Vette for a Tesla baby. Here’s your loan paperwork. Sign here. The collective has spoken.

    :)

    I’m still interested in the thread being about not the vehicle itself (Honestly, who cares? There’s plenty of good reviews and fans, and as someone else pointed out, Musk’s lawyers make a lot of money shutting up bad reviews. But they’re out there anyway...) but the business model.

    Is his plan just to raise more debt? @deonb makes a pretty good argument for that. Why bother being profitable when investors like our “80%” friend above are out there?

    They’ll happily let the company flush their money and whine all the way there that it was the big “evil” profitable auto makers that caused the inevitable numbers failure.

    Is that the plan? Because nobody rational wants to bail out another damn American car company. If they can’t sell small cars against the Koreans or Japanese, they’ve got a serious business model problem. It’s not like the Korean and Japanese companies are shipping the vehicles much anymore. They’re building them right here.

    So it’s pretty clear if Ford, GM, and yes, Tesla can’t seem to build plants that make a profit and the Asian companies can, in Kentucky for cripes sakes, they’re doing something severely wrong.

    (I left Chrysler out because that Euro-American mess of a company is too difficult to figure out. What a mess.)

    The annoying business part to me are Musk’s incessant promises he never ever hits. If you’re going to go for broke, go for it. Don’t announce you’re making things “someday”. Who cares?

    Anyone in IT was done believing vaporware claims at least a decade ago. Either you make something or you don’t.

    At least Ford is honest about it. We are NOT making X anymore. They’re marketing to intelligent people. Tesla? Not so much. Can’t make things you haven’t even built plants to make them in.
     
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  21. deonb

    deonb Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Where are you seeing it's offline? Also, if a SuperCharger is offline, and you're stuck as a result, Tesla will generally tow you for free to your destination.
     
  22. deonb

    deonb Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    I wouldn't purposefully bet against Elon. He did say they expected a profit at the 3rd quarter of this year.

    The last time he said before-hand that a quarter would be profitable was April of 2013.

    If within the first week after he made THAT announcement you bought $1000 of the highest value TSLA 3 month call options, it would have netted you a cool $1 million. Sigh. I actually paid for half of my car because of that quarter (from a $600 investment/gamble!), but still... didn't trust it enough.

    This was also the time of their first major secondary. At that time Elon went ahead and invested $100m of his own money into the company together with that raise. With the result is that the stock price didn't plummet as a result of the raise - it climbed. And Elon just went ahead and predicted another profitable quarter, and made another $10m investment...

    I'm not saying the exact same thing is going to happen again, but I sure as heck won't bet against that right now.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
  23. Hank S

    Hank S En-Route

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    Great, the last four hours' drive, sitting three wide in a tow truck . . . That 6 hours will feel like eternity . . . . . And a tow truck with a vehicle will be more difficult to stop for the dog to get out, too.
     
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  24. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    LOL. There’s a plan. They should have driven it to Omaha knowing there was a perfectly good Volt in the garage, because Tesla would tow them back home for “free”.

    ROFLMAO. Seriously? Four passengers in a tow truck is always a lovely experience. :) :) :)
     
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  25. deonb

    deonb Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Sure, it will suck. But I think the odds of that happening because of an accident or breakdown are much higher than the odds of that happening because the charger was down.

    He didn't say it was down at the time. Knowingly driving to a down charger just to get towed would of course be beyond stupid.
     
  26. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    Yeah I don’t bet against him or for him. Too volatile with not a shred of evidence he can truly run a successful company yet out of any of them.

    But his fans define “success” very differently than any normal business. Broken promises and unprofitability are just fine with them. Hell, him rescuing a failed solar company with car money was okay with them, even. They’re utterly insane.

    Like I said, they’ll just blame “the haters” when he augers it into the ground. Not his poor management. Never that. Which is why I asked for input on the video.

    It’s rational thinking and I’m always entertained by the irrationality of his fans. Just like the fans of the real Tesla. :)
     
  27. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    I’m sure some entitled Model S owner has done it. Especially if they sold the Benz for the Tesla. “I have to be somewhere, I’m important. They’ll just tow me.” LOL.
     
  28. deonb

    deonb Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Most well known case was John Broder from the New York Times who drove up to a SuperCharger and then went and drove around in circles over and over again until he ran out and had to get towed. Because... a Tesla on a tow truck made for more dramatic pictures for his “article”.
     
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  29. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    [​IMG]

    "Ya got a purty mouth boy"


    Lol, wow, that's teslas plan, you and your hottie tottie friends pile into Todds regular cab pickup and he'll drive you back to the burbs.

    So the boutique folks in their electric car have to be rescued by a highschool dropout in a F250.

    Ain't that full circle.
     
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  30. Wingsofglass

    Wingsofglass Pre-takeoff checklist

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    deonb is right with just about everything he says. I own a Tesla. It's not my only car. I don't own the stock and never will. There's nothing wrong with selling a vision, raising a bunch of money and swinging for the fences even though that will incur staggering losses. As others have pointed out, it worked well for Amazon. It's part of the get big fast and then figure out a way to make money that is popular with venture investing. The problem is it fails more often than it works so I stay away from that type of investment. The only reason a business ever fails is because it runs out of cash. Profitable business fail for this reason as well. The day may come when Tesla can't raise more money and then it will be game over so that's your bet - but Tesla losses will only be tangentially related to not being able to raise money.

    About the car:
    - fantastically practical in that it's a big five seater with a hatch and a front trunk that holds tons of stuff. Comparing performance to a two seat sports car makes no sense.
    - magnificently convenient. It's hard to overstate how nice it is to never go to a gas station (as long as you can charge at home).
    Not only that but I can set inside temp from my phone when it's parked so it's warm and snow-free in the winter and cool in the summer.
    - very fun acceleration.
    - with 200 miles of range, I never worry about running out in day to day driving.
    - the Tesla sucks for road trips. Anybody who tells you otherwise doesn't care about getting someplace quickly. I tend to fly instead of road tripping but when I do, it ain't in the Tesla.
    - You can get a car with similar performance that handles better and has a nicer interior for about $30k less. I'd recommend the Porsche Mecan. However it won't have the convenience of a Tesla. Is that worth $30k? Probably not yet I do find myself driving my Tesla way more than the other car I own which is the aforementioned Porsche Mecan and it's not because "I want to be green." I just want to drive it more.

    The future of cars is electric. It's just a better solution for everything but a road trip. However today it's not economical. When that day comes, the change will happen fast. Until that day electric vehicles only work for rich people or with a bunch of subsidies or for really niche mission cases.
     
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  31. Tj1376

    Tj1376 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The other guys roasted you enough, I won’t continue. But when you own an electric car, you use an app to find charging stations. Your ignorance in asking this question proved you don’t own one. :)

    Here is where I see it offline. See how it’s grey and says “No Status?” That’s bad. Green is what I shoot for.

    [​IMG]


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  32. 3393RP

    3393RP Pattern Altitude

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    Apparently you aren't aware that Tesla has collateralized everything, including the factory. There are plenty of nuggets out there, like this one on April 3rd from Fortune:

    "Mounting financial pressures, in addition to the Model 3 shortfalls, spurred Moody’s Investors Service’s downgrade of Tesla’s credit rating last week to B3, six levels below investment grade."

    I can promise you there isn't $5 billion out there waiting for Elon Musk to ask for it.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
  33. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    That been the norm in the supercar scene for a long time now, it’s not particularly new. That crap breaks down constantly. Difference might be that they call the tow truck for the car, and call the butler to bust out the Rolls to come get them instead of piling into the tow truck cab with Bubba, though.

    A lot of people use Amazon as an example, but they forget a few key things.

    Number one, is that when Amazon was running up massive debt, they were doing it during the dot com bubble run up and they looked a LOT better than the crappy businesses that were all getting investor money with no real business plans. The investors after 9/11 called in a lot of loans but not Amazon’s, because they were actually on a steep upward profitability trajectory, and I would have to go look but may even have been at least EBIDTA positive in gross revenues. They were clearly sticking around.

    In comparison, Tesla is a cash burning cow.

    Additionally at that time in Amazon’s history they were selling books, CDs and DVDs. And everyone wanted those shipped to their door. They were stealing a market with better service and convenience as well as lower prices than brick and mortar could do. Waldenbooks and others with expensive mall space couldn’t compete with a warehouse and some web servers, and nearly every book store out there had to die to make Amazon go. B&N bought up the remnants and somehow managed to survive as the last chain anyone can go to buy a book in person at.

    Again, in comparison, Tesla is making a niche vehicle (even the Model 3 is a niche car) that only does a few things well. It’s not an entire car market killer like home shopping for books and media was. Without a killer product they have to play by a slightly different set of rules than Amazon did.

    And finally the biggest overlooked thing about Amazon burning cash was this, and most people don’t understand it at all. They were burning that cash to invest in huge internal tech. What we now know today as Amazon Web Services is the result of their INTERNAL IT projects that built a massively scaleable server farm and their own very secretive data centers so they wouldn’t be relying on any outside real estate, leasing server hardware, none of that. They own everything but the bandwidth from he carriers.

    Then they realized what they had built and decided to start selling THAT too. Why not, most small businesses couldn’t afford to do servers at that scale.

    They were the first customer ever to approach server manufacturers and ask for systems that would be outfitted with (back then) 16 processors (only Sun, HP, and IBM were playing at that size back then) and they’d normally run 8 of them. They wanted a way to RENT CPUs for just their busy season (Thanksgiving through Christmas) and then turn them back off, until they got big enough to use all the processors full-time. HP obliged and made a mid-size server that did just that. Pop in an encrypted signed file into HP-UX and 8 processors come online without any downtime. That was a BIG deal back then.

    Amazon could only even KNOW they needed that because Bezos (at the time) was insanely intense about metrics. They measure EVERYTHING. In their IT they know down to the hundredth of a second how efficient or non-efficient their code is, in the warehouses they measure getting a product from a shelf to a truck in seconds and try to beat it constantly with tech. Things like that.

    Final comparison: Musk does no such thing nor has anywhere near the level of focus on the bottom line performance numbers as Bezos did. Apologists for him will just say he hires people for that and blame those people but that’s never the correct answer for a true leader.

    Bezos drove a 15 year old Honda for even more years after Amazon was profitable and loaded with cash, because it started and got him where he needed to go without any fuss. Only his “image” people finally made him buy a new car.

    In contrast, Musk is all about image and sizzle and the meat is always undercooked. He just picks more “exciting” projects to the masses.

    Nobody thought Bezos working off of a desk he made out of a few pine 2x4s and and old door, obsessing over the hard numbers of online retail sales, was going anywhere. Certainly nobody thought he would kill all the other booksellers except B&N doing it. That kind of obsession and passion about details is BORING to those who don’t know business.

    I think it’s also boring to Musk. He wants to play “public visionary” and if the company fails? Oh well. It was the team I hired. They couldn’t figure it out.

    As the video points out the current CEO is in “production hell” at Tesla and has even said so in public. In all the manufacturing companies I’ve worked at, those words would be avoided by the execs because the market repercussions would be massive. But if you pretend you’re making something revolutionary, you get away with it for a while.

    The video pointed this pattern out:

    Make one car, and announce the first one won’t be profitable. The second one will make a profit.

    Make second car, no profit, announce the third one will make a profit.

    Make third car, no profit, announce the fourth, and fifth ones will make a profit. (Isn’t that literally doubling down on your own BS?)

    But now you’re not capitalized enough to even start building the plant to build them in, so you’re absolutely guaranteed not to hit the announced sales date.

    And people are still buying that story. It’s on round four. A realist would say, “that doesn’t look good at all”.

    But a realist never met the crowd of believers in the myth. The myth being that “the future of cars is electric”. Why? Hybrid tech makes much more sense. Orders of magnitude more sense.

    Take the best of any one particular tech and add it to tech that’s already a known quantity, and each piece does what that component does best.

    Why limit the engineers at all? If this is about “vision” why force electric only with all the major problems it brings? It’s not solving any particular problem, and where it does, it’s creating multiple more problems. That’s not a solution, that’s an interim tech mess.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
  34. DaleB

    DaleB En-Route

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    Several. Last month alone we drove 2/3 to all the way across Iowa every single weekend -- twice one weekend. We usually drive my wife's Volvo XC60, it gets better gas mileage. The pickup is a tad more comfortable, but the Volvo has a much better cruise control. These trips are usually for family events -- weddings, funerals, reunions, graduations, etc. Often on holidays. Time spent en route is time wasted, and means less time doing what we want to be doing.
    False. The closest gas station is two minutes from my house, on my way to just about anywhere we ever go. We pass four more between our house and the Interstate, and a dozen more before leaving civilization for Iowa. The only "natural" stop on a five hour road trip is to top off, drain bladders and get back on the road.
    Well, here's where you are absolutely correct. I don't believe you. Not a problem though. The chances of me wanting to test that for myself are as close to zero as you could possibly imagine.
    OK, so why, exactly, would you even want to drink that flavor of Kool-Aid? Because it builds character? Teaches important life lessons?
    No, see, it's about the opposite. A business trip means I really don't care how long it takes; it takes as long as it needs to. When traveling for family events and our own pleasure, time spent en route is time NOT spent with family and NOT doing what we want to do. "Sorry, Mom, we have to be the first to leave this family Christmas get-together because our sexy new car can't make it home without an extra hour spent recharging".
    Seriously? At 50 we were doing 800 in a day on the motorcycle. Not "extremely tired". Done riding for the day to be sure, but not too tired to relax, take a dip in the pool, have a couple of drinks and a good meal. Which we could do, see, because we arrived when the pool and the restaurant were still open. This despite being on a Harley (and towing a trailer) that has legs as short as a Tesla, but only takes two minutes to refuel.
    I'm really struggling here to figure out if you're intentionally trying to be funny or what. Yes, I can refuel my gasoline or diesel powered vehicle pretty much anywhere. Certainly anywhere liquid fossil fuels are sold. Not at my house, but a few blocks away, and at several places where I regularly stop anyway (Sam's Club, Costco, grocery stores) -- in five minutes or less. Certainly not inconvenient. Even less so when I need to drive more than a couple hundred miles. And neither Ford nor Volvo care one bit what I do to or with the vehicles, or how, or where, but they are always in the exceedingly unlikely event that I need them to be.

    Dude... I get it. You spent a crazy amount of money on your Tesla, and it really, really turns you on. Good for you. If you think it's worth it to be able to say, Well, I drive a Tesla", that's great. Just please don't take it badly when we fail to swoon.
     
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  35. 3393RP

    3393RP Pattern Altitude

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    I noticed that too.
     
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  36. 3393RP

    3393RP Pattern Altitude

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    "That's not a bug, it's a feature."

    LMAO
     
  37. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    P.S. Is there any media outlet that isn’t going for the shock and awe of EVERY “story” anymore? I mean seriously, when YouTube channels are more reasonable than anything on broadcast or the big names of “news” on all their clickbait websites loaded with twenty ads, what really is the point of consuming anything they say.

    I’m not a Tesla fan, nor am I against them, but “journalists” like that moron really tick me off.

    A LOT more media companies deserve to die if that’s the kind of reporting they’re going to do. Many lament the loss of the newspaper, myself included, but the newspaper names did it to themselves with that kind of total crap “reporting”.

    I tune in ONE radio news spot per day, MAYBE two. Five minutes at the top of the hour and I’m plenty informed about everything I really NEED to know. I can’t think of how long it’s been since I sat through an entire newscast or god forbid, watched more than five minutes of any of the “cable” news outlets.

    People are sickeningly addicted to those things. It’s gross. Everything their favorite news outlet posts, they re-post or re-tweet on their social media as if any of us are there to see their post history full of “news” we could easily go find ourselves.

    It’s grotesque how much “news” some people consume willingly. They need a “news diet”.
     
    deonb likes this.
  38. paflyer

    paflyer Final Approach

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    Too subtle for the young 'uns here. Well played!
     
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  39. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    Hahahaha. I didn’t think of that. I caught it. Yeah, many here won’t remember. :)
     
  40. paflyer

    paflyer Final Approach

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    But it's for the children!