Terrible FSS service

I always get good service from Fort Dodge FSS, but just yesterday I was on hold for about 10 minutes to file a flight plan. Thats probably the longest hold time I've ever had. I know they're working on the transition to being a part of Fort Worth, and I hear that a ton of people are in training for the new system right now. Maybe those two things together are slowing things down.
 
I was on hold today for four minutes for Kankakee, and he apologized when he answered the call. After filing, I talked with him for a moment about staffing and the FSSes. Apparently, there are only four briefers currently staffing Kankakee. About 10% of the briefers nationwide are currently offline because they are in training. It's a 5-day course. Also, Kankakee will be closing next week until about June 21st as their equipment gets upgraded. They're going to be in the same facility, but it seemed as if it would be largely rehabbed.

I have to say that he was very helpful, and his awareness of the destination was welcome. He was even aware of the runway configuration and commented that the 16G19 would be a direct crosswind. Also made a point to give the winds at both 3K and 6K because of a 30 knot difference between them, though I was filed at 7K.
 
This is a serious problem, IMHO. We've got at least 2 big message boards in which most everyone who has replied says there's a problem with only 1 or 2 saying it still is fine.

LM is defaulting on their contract.
 
I called FSS 4 times so far this weekend and on only one of those calls did I not have to hold for more than 5 minutes. Average wait was closer to 10 minutes for the rest of the calls.
 
Until this last month, I'd not had a single problem. Why is there suddenly all these complaints? They had been under Lockheed for well over a year.

I know there are some stations closing and others opening. The puzzle is... if all the services are supposed to be seamless with the phone system, why would it matter where stations are located? The best I can tell, Macon is being reworked and will be back online the end of May. Meanwhile, my calls are ending up everywhere but the east coast. I'd at least like to talk with Nashville... not Casper, Wyoming!

It's time to let folks know what's happening.

http://www.afss.com/feedback/
 
KennyFlys said:
Until this last month, I'd not had a single problem. Why is there suddenly all these complaints? They had been under Lockheed for well over a year.

I know there are some stations closing and others opening. The puzzle is... if all the services are supposed to be seamless with the phone system, why would it matter where stations are located? The best I can tell, Macon is being reworked and will be back online the end of May. Meanwhile, my calls are ending up everywhere but the east coast. I'd at least like to talk with Nashville... not Casper, Wyoming!

It's time to let folks know what's happening.

http://www.afss.com/feedback/
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They're consolidating, updating the system to the computers that came from the post 1970 era, and supposedly has a lot of briefers in for training these last few weeks.

For any outsource contractor the first priority is to tear down what was there and get everything on your systems. Then when they threaten to cancel the contract you laugh and laugh and laugh.
 
Raleigh FSS closed last weekend. I had waits of 15, 10, 20 and 15 minutes this weekend with Lockheed Martin. Lost my flight plan twice and got terrible briefings where the briefers were obviously not familiar with the equipment.

So, this is an improvement?

On the plus side, got lots of actual IMC including one approach that ended above the clouds, but there was a hole right over the runway and was able to slip through the hole and land. Exciting...
 
Same wait (20 min) happened to me on Friday. The briefer was nice enough, but seemed to be fumbling through unfamiliar stuff -- basically read the ADIZ info to me even though I was flying in the opposite direction. (I was more interested in P-40)

Either this will get worse - and they're really priming us to simply use DUATs, etc rather than calling....OR....it'll get better in a month. (ok, optimistic).
 
gprellwitz said:
I was on hold today for four minutes for Kankakee, and he apologized when he answered the call. After filing, I talked with him for a moment about staffing and the FSSes.
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Well, all you folks who called Kankakee yesterday know why you were on hold now. It's 'cuz Grant was chatting with them asking why he'd been on hold. :D :rofl:
 
KennyFlys said:
Until this last month, I'd not had a single problem. Why is there suddenly all these complaints? They had been under Lockheed for well over a year.
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Yeah, but they were still basically running the "old" way. Lotsa stations, lotsa briefers. Lockheed was just a name change until very recently.
 
mikea said:
They're consolidating, updating the system to the computers that came from the post 1970 era,
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Mike, a lot of the FSS's have been using the OASIS system by Harris Corp. since 2004 or so. In fact, when I visited GRB FSS in 2004 they had the old green screens plus the new stuff side-by-side during the transition. Watching them use OASIS, it really was a very good system when used by properly trained personnel.

What was most interesting to me is that they have some things that we don't have access to anywhere. One of the coolest was called the VAD Wind Profiler. VAD = Vertical Angle somethingorother (sorry, forgot. :redface:) and it's basically a straight-up shot from the radar that will give ACTUAL winds aloft in 1000-foot increments for any altitude where there is any moisture in the air whose movements can be detected by the radar. (It shows "NA" where the air is clear.) Now, actual winds aloft may not sound like much, but they can also get pretty accurate tops, layers, etc. just by seeing where there's data and where there isn't. It would be a VERY nice tool to have, but the NWS doesn't see fit to let us mere mortals see it. :mad:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Well, all you folks who called Kankakee yesterday know why you were on hold now. It's 'cuz Grant was chatting with them asking why he'd been on hold. :D :rofl:
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Yeah but I was thinking of YOU when I was asking him! In fact, it was specifically so I could update this thread! LOL :rofl:
 
We're not the only ones. This was the subject of AvWeb's question of the week last week, and an uncharacteristically high (for an AvWeb poll that is)59% of people chose one answer: That things have been worse since the consolidation began. Only 23% chose same, and only 6% chose better.
 
most of the calls to Fort Dodge lately have been getting routed to Princeton. The other day when I got a briefing, Princeton was able to get my Iowa Local Notams, through Fort Dodge, which I thought was nice. Briefer said that once they all go to training this summer, Fort Dodge and Huron will be closed for good and Princeton will run all three states.
 
tonycondon said:
most of the calls to Fort Dodge lately have been getting routed to Princeton. The other day when I got a briefing, Princeton was able to get my Iowa Local Notams, through Fort Dodge, which I thought was nice. Briefer said that once they all go to training this summer, Fort Dodge and Huron will be closed for good and Princeton will run all three states.
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Good deal for me. I've always had good luck with Princeton. Thankfully they decided to keep the only good station in the three state region open :D

I sure hope all you Iowans call volume doesn't hurt my FSS experience. You guys are more workload--have to talk slower, explain things twice, and sometimes draw a picture before you'll understand.
 
Gaaaaah!

So the FAA fined Lockheed $9 million for not living up to their performance guarantees... And now Lockheed is demanding a 10-percent increase in the amount of the contract ($177 mil increase) because they say that the FAA "didn't supply accurate labor cost information."

http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/865-full.html#195180

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Word is, both LM and Boeing are trying like mad to take over ATC as well. :hairraise:

Let this be a lesson... Privatization of government functions is a BAD IDEA.
 
We filed two flight plans last Wednesday night for Thursday morning and they lost them both. The tower controlled at KFLG actually called them on the phone and relayed our plan to them while we were on the taxiway. We got our clearance in about three minutes and took off. It was pretty interesting, and we both figured that they'd probably had to do that a time or two already. Not wanting to fade any heat they've gotten adept at doing it on the fly so to speak.
 
I called FSS for the first time in maybe a month or so today. I had to file an IFR flight plan from an airport with no computer, well, there was no FBO either. I tried the 1-800-WXBRIEF number which now has a long message from Lockheed apologizing for the delays. After the message you get sent to a voice-activated menu where you have to say the name of the state you're in. I said "Utah". It thought I said "Ohio". Geez, did I stutter? Correcting that set me back a minute or two or three since I had to start over. Then I got put on hold. And I held, and held and held. Finally I got the bright idea that I would try filing on my pda if I could get a wireless signal. Wonder of wonders I got a signal in BFE Utah. Weird because the airport isn't even attended, at least that I could see. This was the first time I had ever tried to file on a pda so it took me quite a while, but I beat the Lockheed briefer. I was still on hold when I finished. So much for them!
 
Called BDR AFSS this evening to file 3 VFR flight plans and [surprisingly] the briefer was very helpful. I had to call a second time to update the fuel on board for all 3 legs, but it was a non-issue.

I called through the direct number rather than 1-800-WX-BRIEF...the last time I called the WX BRIEF number I got some FSS 300 miles away. The real answers will be answered tomorrow when I find out if they have my FPs or not...
 
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AOPA is doing a survey on the FSS experience as of late. I just sent select participants in this thread a link to the survey via PM, which I encourage you to fill out. However, don't let that keep you from following other avenues if you have grievances!
 
smigaldi said:
I just did the survey Grant.
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So did I, but I wasn't able to give such great answers since I never got past being on hold.

Coincidentally, just after that happened to me I got a scathing e-mail forwarded by my friend from his friend who has been an FSS briefer for a long time. It's really too long to paste here and mainly has to do with the scheduling and staffing problems as well as which location is answering for certain geographical areas in the west, but it ends with...

Pass any of this that is applicable to and your friends' situation/s along to whoever....I'm FURIOUS that Lockheed hasn't told anyone what is really happening. The only folks I talk to that understand it are folks I already explained it to a day or two ago.

GRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!

But I have to smile.....if I complain, I'm out the door feet first!
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Just got back from a Lifeline flight from C16 to LUK. Yup, FSS sucks.
They're gonna be out of business soon as we're all going online. Problem is, then they get the contract $$s and don't have to do SQUAT to get the money.
 
bbchien said:
Just got back from a Lifeline flight from C16 to LUK. Yup, FSS sucks.
They're gonna be out of business soon as we're all going online. Problem is, then they get the contract $$s and don't have to do SQUAT to get the money.
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Is that true? I know that DUAT and DUATS get $1 or so per briefing. I'll bet the feds didn't have enough sense to put a per work unit component in this L-M contract.
 
bbchien said:
Just got back from a Lifeline flight from C16 to LUK. Yup, FSS sucks.
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We flew from southwest Washington State to Phoenix yesterday. Unforecast convection along our planned route in southern Utah and northern Arizona ultimately prompted us to go the long way around the "Area 51" restricted areas to western Nevada. FSS personnel answered quickly, were friendly and tried to be helpful, but their resources and equipment frustrated them and inconvenienced us on every call, in the air and on the ground. Worst FSS experience I've had on a single trip in 40 years of flying. It's all too involved to describe here, but if this wasn't a service critical to aviation safety it would have been funny.

-- Pilawt
 
Taken from today's Avweb issue:
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/875-full.html#195286

Overheard on Little Rock Airport's (KLIT) clearance delivery frequency.

King Air N1234: Little Rock clearance this is King Air N1234 with a request.

Clearance delivery: Go ahead.

King Air N1234: I have been trying to file a flight plan with Lockheed for more than 30 minutes. Could you take the info and file for me?

Clearance delivery: Sure, give me the info.

King Air N1234: [after the info was given] I never thought I would see the day when I would say the federal government was more efficient than the private sector. Thanks!
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Response letter from LM.

Best,

Dave



I'm sending this e-mail in response to your comments on the Lockheed Martin Pilot Portal. I'm not here to make excuses for Lockheed Martin, but I do want you to know some of the things we've implemented to try and remedy problems. I also want you to know that I requested to take on the task of handling complaints and this is not the Lockheed Corporation speaking but rather myself, a pilot for over 40 years and a Flight Service Specialist for over 20 years.



I apologize for your frustration with the web portal. We do welcome and appreciate the time you have spent to share your concerns.



The time spent waiting for a briefer has been a problem and the following addresses this issue.



We have approved unlimited overtime in order to reduce the call wait times.



Our cadre instructors have suggested sitting with a Specialist for a day after they are out of training to ensure they are familiar with all aspects of the equipment. As specialists become more familiar with the equipment the time to conduct a briefing are shorter.



We have changed our call tree which determines how long a pilot must remain on hold prior to being transferred to an adjacent Flight Plan Area Specialist. This time has been extended to 2 minutes before transferring to an adjacent flight plan area so chances are greater of getting a specialist that has localized expertise for your area of flight. I believe this remedy will be further enhanced when we all get back to our respective facilities as we now have personnel from our facility training, traveling, and others attempting to do the work of two.



I apologize for the hold times because I know two minutes on hold seems like an hour and I realize your extended wait times are unacceptable. We also had a software update earlier this week that should fix a number of problems which I won't go into detail on. Please know that we want the system improvements to be implemented as quickly as anyone. I do hope you start to see improvement to your service immediately. Please feel free to respond to this e-mail as I do not actually have a permanent office or phone number while at the DCA AFSS.



Thank you for taking your time to help us improve.



Montgomery Broward

Operations Supervisor PIE AFSS

Lockheed Martin
 
I have a few problems with his response:

LM Dude said:
We have approved unlimited overtime in order to reduce the call wait times.
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Not good. I spend a good chuck of time at Comcast dealing with mandatory overtime, and I do not wish that on any other call center folks. Beyond that, from a stictly selfish perspective, they're gonna be tired and worn out and more prone to mistakes (believe me, call center work is very taxing on the mind)

We have changed our call tree which determines how long a pilot must remain on hold prior to being transferred to an adjacent Flight Plan Area Specialist. This time has been extended to 2 minutes before transferring to an adjacent flight plan area so chances are greater of getting a specialist that has localized expertise for your area of flight. I believe this remedy will be further enhanced when we all get back to our respective facilities as we now have personnel from our facility training, traveling, and others attempting to do the work of two.
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2 minutes. Awesome. I thought they guaranteed 30 seconds when they got the contract? I'm ok with the lack of localized FSS, since everything in this country is going "virtual call-center," but what they need to do is make it flawless. Some way to get L-NOTAMS would be nice, as well as maybe a map that shows them where in the state each of the local areas are (like where the eastern plains of NM are for example).

I apologize for the hold times because I know two minutes on hold seems like an hour and I realize your extended wait times are unacceptable. We also had a software update earlier this week that should fix a number of problems which I won't go into detail on. Please know that we want the system improvements to be implemented as quickly as anyone. I do hope you start to see improvement to your service immediately. Please feel free to respond to this e-mail as I do not actually have a permanent office or phone number while at the DCA AFSS.
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He's talking down to you here. "2 minutes seems like an hour," meaning "Look, dude, you weren't on hold THAT long, deal with it." I know that phrase, I used it a lot myself.
 
We went flying Saturday and tried to contact FSS multiple times for a pop up. After receiving NO response we contacted BNA approach. The controller asked if we had tried contacting FSS for the pop up. When we told him we were unable to make contact he responded "imagine that".

We then had add'l dialog concerning "privatization of ATC" which was a cross between humerous and frustrating.
 
nick, FWIW regarding L-NOTAMS, when I called and got forwarded to Princeton (MN) instead of Fort Dodge (IA) the last time, Princeton had the Iowa Local notams in anticipation of take over this summer.
 
When I called up FSS a couple of weeks ago, I got through to Kankakee in less than 30 seconds. when I told the briefer this he was quite surprised by the non existent hold.

Pete
 
Here at RDU the FSS office is closed for renovation and all the folks are up in VA for training. I called for a briefing the other day, told the computer I was in NC. The guy came on within a minute or less.

I gave him my N number and before I could say anything else he repeated it and said, "You're in NC, aren't you?" I said yes. He said, "Isn't that Jim D...'s plane?" I laughed and told him it was. He's up in VA with him training. It's a small world. But I got a briefer that knew the area and it went well. A computer glitch or two, but he worked around it just fine.
 
I've been pretty lucky over the last couple weeks... 2 of the 3 times I've called for briefings, I've gotten Kankakee well within a minute of holding. The other time, I waited on hold for about 4-6 minutes before talking to a briefer who clearly didn't have a good handle on where I was or on the equipment he was using... the standard briefing I get from Kankakee for my local flights south of MDW usually takes about 5 minutes or so to get all the pertinent data in. This guy had me on the phone for over 10, and was fumbling around with his computer, and mentioning weather in North Dakota for my local flight between MDW and IGQ. I mean I suppose I understand that it's good to know the big picture, but that stuff wouldn't have impacted me if my flight lasted 48 hours, let alone the 2 I said I'd be up for. Anyway, it just went to give me the impression that the guy wasn't at all familiar with what I was looking for. I could tell he was trying and that he was probably otherwise very competent but that he was really... uncomfortable with what he was doing.
 
Sunday afternoon I decided to take a ~3 minute hop between Smoketown and Lancaster. I called 800-WX-BRIEF, listened to a message "Welcome to Lockheed-Martin Williamsport Fliight Service Station", hit "1", listened to two ring tones, and was immediately disconnected. Thinking my cell phone burped, I dialed again. Same result. Now thoroughly suspicious I dialed one more time. Same result.

As I understand it (correct me, someone, please), neither LM nor the US gov have dropped call, wait time, or any other performance measure software running on the 800-WX-BRIEF lines. IOW, neither Lockheed nor the government have the basic business management compentency to install basic business function monitoring software.

Sheesh.
 
SkyHog said:
2 minutes. Awesome. I thought they guaranteed 30 seconds when they got the contract? I'm ok with the lack of localized FSS, since everything in this country is going "virtual call-center," but what they need to do is make it flawless. Some way to get L-NOTAMS would be nice, as well as maybe a map that shows them where in the state each of the local areas are (like where the eastern plains of NM are for example).

He's talking down to you here. "2 minutes seems like an hour," meaning "Look, dude, you weren't on hold THAT long, deal with it." I know that phrase, I used it a lot myself.
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It's time for someone to do a AOL Vince(?) with an FSS call and post it with a running real time clock stamp on YouTube.

Who could do that? I dunno - somebody who knows how to record phone calls. Know anybody like that? :rolleyes:
 
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