Taxi Or Backtaxi?

jnmeade

jnmeade

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Jim Meade
Do you ever "taxi" on a runway? Sometimes I do just for orneriness. It seems people universally "backtaxi" on a runway, even if they are not going into takeoff position. If a person lands and stops midway down runway 18 and turns around to go to the touchdown point to egress, they invariably "backtaxi" 18 when it would be just as accurate to say "taxi 36". If the person landing on 18 rolls out to the end of the runway to exit, taking nearly the same amount of time on the runway as turning around, it is rare to hear "taxi 18". They just don't say anything unless there is apparently a potential conflict. Funny that one will hear "backtaxi" when "taxi" is just as accurate and would describe the same amount of time of runway occupation.
I think we say backtaxi not because it is necessarily more accurate but simply because that is what our CFI taught us and we say it out of habit. In terms of occupying a runway, when does backtaxi say anything more than taxi?
Backtaxi has an implication of direction of landing but with cross runways, preferred runways, instrument approaches and so on, backtaxi might be a presumption of the person doing the talking and not necessarily provide any intelligence to the pilot in the pattern that could not be provided exactly as accurately as "taxi".
Another post of virtually no value to anyone and all it suggests is I have a lot of time on my hands and nothing to do. In fact, I'm going flying in an hour and a half and better taxi up to the kitchen and make some eggs.
 
I believe the official term is "taxi via the runway." Back taxi is colloquially used when going opposite to the way the runway is currently being used for takeoff and landings. At least it isn't as objectional as some other terms. The reverse high speeds were called polish high speeds when I first started flying.
 
I was taught to land short to take advantage of the nearest off ramp , to clear the runway quickly as possible, to facilitate the next aircraft that might be in the pattern. Being " ornery" is pretty immature unless it's a small airport with only one runway.
 
The problem I see with saying "taxiing on 36" instead of "backtaxiing on 18" is that someone landing on 18 might become confused, especially if there are multiple runways.
 
jnmeade said:
Sometimes I do just for orneriness.
Another post of virtually no value to anyone and all it suggests is I have a lot of time on my hands and nothing to do. In fact, I'm going flying in an hour and a half and better taxi up to the kitchen and make some eggs.
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Brilliant, just brilliant. :rolleyes:
 
Placing it in the category of "another minor verbiage topic which GA pilots might really get wound up about" (but has zero practical consequence).

Taking the runway.
ATITAPA
there are a half dozen others.
Oh. Hope you are With Me on this.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Placing it in the category of "another minor verbiage topic which GA pilots might really get wound up about" (but has zero practical consequence).

Taking the runway.
ATITAPA
there are a half dozen others.
Oh. Hope you are With Me on this.
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That begs the question, why do people around my locale use the phrase "back-tracking" instead of "backtaxi"? And is this reflective in any way of how they voted? Y'all are with me on this, right?
 
GRG55 said:
That begs the question, why do people around my locale use the phrase "back-tracking" instead of "backtaxi"? And is this reflective in any way of how they voted? Y'all are with me on this, right?
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Common in Canada. Runways aren't primarily for taxiing, I suppose, so someone decided that backtracking is more appropriate. It implies that an aircraft is tracking a heading opposite the runway heading.
 
I use back taxi when using the runway for taxi

i use taxi via alpha, brave, charlie, etc, etc when using a taxiway
 
GRG55 said:
That begs the question, why do people around my locale use the phrase "back-tracking" instead of "backtaxi"? And is this reflective in any way of how they voted? Y'all are with me on this, right?
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Let'sgoflying! said:
Placing it in the category of "another minor verbiage topic which GA pilots might really get wound up about" (but has zero practical consequence).

Taking the runway.
ATITAPA
there are a half dozen others.
Oh. Hope you are With Me on this.
Click to expand...

ATITAPA is not to be used, according to AIM 4-1-9:

g. Self-Announce Position and/or Intentions
1. General. Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF. This procedure is used primarily at airports which do not have an FSS on the airport. The self-announce procedure should also be used if a pilot is unable to communicate with the FSS on the designated CTAF. Pilots stating, “Traffic in the area, please advise” is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition.
 
bobmrg said:
ATITAPA is not to be used, according to AIM 4-1-9:g. Self-Announce Position and/or Intentions
1. General. Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF. This procedure is used primarily at airports which do not have an FSS on the airport. The self-announce procedure should also be used if a pilot is unable to communicate with the FSS on the designated CTAF. Pilots stating, “Traffic in the area, please advise” is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition.
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I know - I roared when I learned the FAA had been caught up in that internet controversy to the extent of putting it in a publication! Hilarious.
 
bobmrg said:
ATITAPA is not to be used, according to AIM 4-1-9:

g. Self-Announce Position and/or Intentions
1. General. Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF. This procedure is used primarily at airports which do not have an FSS on the airport. The self-announce procedure should also be used if a pilot is unable to communicate with the FSS on the designated CTAF. Pilots stating, “Traffic in the area, please advise” is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition.
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Yes. Just make your normal position calls, and the clueless ATITPA guy will realize there is traffic in the pattern.
 
Yeah, it is probably ornery to say taxiing on 12 when one could say backtaxiing on 30 but when the approach end of 12 is closer to the intersection with 7-25 which the larger planes have to use, it might be much clearer to the potential large plane where you are on the runway then if you say backtaxi 30 when that might imply you were south of and receding from the intersection and you turned left at the taxiiway to get to the departure end of 30. When people actually listen to the words and apply situational awareness they don't need the sometimes confusing cues generated by saying backtaxi out of habit.
And suppose you land with a slight tailwind for some legitimate reason. Does saying backtaxi imply the favored runway to inbound traffic (especially at a small airport with no weather and maybe no wind indicator) when most might prefer to land in the opposite direction?
Just being ornery with you. I got back from flying and taxied on 25 but I won't tell you what direction I was going. :) My point is people worried about precision might listen to the words and not start overlying assumptions on them if they want the best situational awareness.
 
bobmrg said:
ATITAPA is not to be used, according to AIM 4-1-9:

g. Self-Announce Position and/or Intentions
1. General. Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF. This procedure is used primarily at airports which do not have an FSS on the airport. The self-announce procedure should also be used if a pilot is unable to communicate with the FSS on the designated CTAF. Pilots stating, “Traffic in the area, please advise” is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition.
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I love ATITPPA

I can defend it until the cows come home.
 
As a new student, this is an issue that even after talking a little with my CFI I don't feel I understand well enough.

We fly out of a non towered airport, using a common frequency. We announce that we are taxiing to "holding alpha" and go through the checklist magneto, carb heat, etc. and then we check in all directions but specially the active runway and beyond, announce we are "entering and backtracking runway XX for takeoff" and commence entering the runway, etc.

I feel very unsure about that. I don't know HOW I can be sure there is no traffic that maybe announced previous to me entering the holding point or the runway that I didn't hear.

At this stage, I can't even put into words what is bothering me, except it is that I am not experienced in spotting incoming and though I look carefully might miss, etc.

But is it the timing of any aircraft intending on landing that will be the warning? That they must announce prior to landing within X minutes? What about airplanes that have no radio? Or is it simply that you look out for incoming, announce what your intentions are, and enter the runway, prepare and then takeoff if no planes in sight on final, and no one contacts you? That if a plane say without radio was intending to land, they would see you on the runway, taking off and circle?

I just don't have the understanding if that is the whole of it. And it seems pretty important that I understand that better. Any advice?
 
I remember about 10-15 years ago the FAA towers had to stop using "back taxi" in radio communications and used "taxi on runway" instead. I haven't heard a controller use back taxi since.
 
jnmeade said:
Do you ever "taxi" on a runway? Sometimes I do just for orneriness.
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I do too, and nothing ornery about it. If I'm using a runway, say 12, to get to, say, 18 and the wind would favor 12, I announce "Cardinal 8JT taxi 12" rather than "backtaxi 30". In the larger scheme of things it really doesn't matter which you say, but I do that mostly so that no one assumes that I'm planning to use 30.
 
LongRoadBob said:
I feel very unsure about that. I don't know HOW I can be sure there is no traffic that maybe announced previous to me entering the holding point or the runway that I didn't hear.
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That is why the very last thing you do before entering the runway is to look toward the approach to VISUALLY check for any traffic that might conflict with you. Once on the runway you should not waste any time taking off.
Announcing YOUR position is an aid to helping others SEE and AVOID. The more accurate you are the better the chances OTHERS will be able to visually locate YOU. Using the number of the runway in use makes it simpler for other to spot and see you.
 
LongRoadBob said:
As a new student, this is an issue that even after talking a little with my CFI I don't feel I understand well enough.

We fly out of a non towered airport, using a common frequency. We announce that we are taxiing to "holding alpha" and go through the checklist magneto, carb heat, etc. and then we check in all directions but specially the active runway and beyond, announce we are "entering and backtracking runway XX for takeoff" and commence entering the runway, etc.

I feel very unsure about that. I don't know HOW I can be sure there is no traffic that maybe announced previous to me entering the holding point or the runway that I didn't hear.

At this stage, I can't even put into words what is bothering me, except it is that I am not experienced in spotting incoming and though I look carefully might miss, etc.

But is it the timing of any aircraft intending on landing that will be the warning? That they must announce prior to landing within X minutes? What about airplanes that have no radio? Or is it simply that you look out for incoming, announce what your intentions are, and enter the runway, prepare and then takeoff if no planes in sight on final, and no one contacts you? That if a plane say without radio was intending to land, they would see you on the runway, taking off and circle? I just don't have the understanding if that is the whole of it. And it seems pretty important that I understand that better. Any advice?
Click to expand...
What's bothering you is that as a student you don't have the complete picture yet. Assuming you are on the common traffic frequency aircraft inbound will hopefully be communicating their intentions such as '5 miles out on the 45 for 18', entering left downwind, base, final, etc. So all you can do is listen while you are preparing to depart. When you're all set, you must do a visual scan, ensuring you turn far enough that you can see the entire picture of final approach in case someone overshot their turn from base to final (ask me how I know). Seeing and hearing no traffic you should state your intentions and proceed onto the runway and depart. While you might be tempted to believe no one else is around, I can assure you there will be times another airplane enters the pattern the wrong direction, the wrong side, or on the wrong frequency. The airport is a starting and termination point so expect traffic density to be higher near one. All of this is good fodder for discussion with your CFI.
 
iflyvfr said:
What's bothering you is that as a student you don't have the complete picture yet. Assuming you are on the common traffic frequency aircraft inbound will hopefully be communicating their intentions such as '5 miles out on the 45 for 18', entering left downwind, base, final, etc. So all you can do is listen while you are preparing to depart. When you're all set, you must do a visual scan, ensuring you turn far enough that you can see the entire picture of final approach in case someone overshot their turn from base to final (ask me how I know). Seeing and hearing no traffic you should state your intentions and proceed onto the runway and depart. While you might be tempted to believe no one else is around, I can assure you there will be times another airplane enters the pattern the wrong direction, the wrong side, or on the wrong frequency. The airport is a starting and termination point so expect traffic density to be higher near one. All of this is good fodder for discussion with your CFI.
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Thanks, and yes, you nailed my concerns and feeling of not having the complete picture.
Also for the advice.
 
I've been requested by the tower before to back taxi and also have on some uncontrolled strips. Its no big deal and kinda fun.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
No...it's common sense. Tune into the CTAF and listen before you arrive in the vicinity of the airport, and you'll hear traffic calls.
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And call a few miles out, saying you are approaching, which should stimulate a call from anyone in that area. There should be no need to ask for a reply. Common sense, as you say.
 
Kritchlow said:
No.... that is BS
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Few nights ago. VMC. A Gulfstream IV called a 20 mile final TITAPA. I had just called base in my bug smasher. I assume he'd just been handed off to advisory, I don't know. But he was so fast compared to me, that I'm glad he reminded me to advise him. Otherwise, my next call might not have been until final.
 
Using a runway to taxi can come in handy, it's normally better condition and wider and better lit, just depends.

As for taxi vs back taxi, I've heard both at towered airports, back taxi is normally when I'm taxing to get full/more length for takeoff.

Taxi, is when I'm using the runway just to taxi, not going to be taking off on that strip.

As for radio calls, at uncontrolled fields I'll say taxiing via runway 13/31, or just runway 13 or runway 31. If inbound traffic doesn't get that, they are too far lost for radio ops to help anyways.


LongRoadBob said:
As a new student, this is an issue that even after talking a little with my CFI I don't feel I understand well enough.

We fly out of a non towered airport, using a common frequency. We announce that we are taxiing to "holding alpha" and go through the checklist magneto, carb heat, etc. and then we check in all directions but specially the active runway and beyond, announce we are "entering and backtracking runway XX for takeoff" and commence entering the runway, etc.

I feel very unsure about that. I don't know HOW I can be sure there is no traffic that maybe announced previous to me entering the holding point or the runway that I didn't hear.

At this stage, I can't even put into words what is bothering me, except it is that I am not experienced in spotting incoming and though I look carefully might miss, etc.

But is it the timing of any aircraft intending on landing that will be the warning? That they must announce prior to landing within X minutes? What about airplanes that have no radio? Or is it simply that you look out for incoming, announce what your intentions are, and enter the runway, prepare and then takeoff if no planes in sight on final, and no one contacts you? That if a plane say without radio was intending to land, they would see you on the runway, taking off and circle?

I just don't have the understanding if that is the whole of it. And it seems pretty important that I understand that better. Any advice?
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Well ATC isn't going to clear you to depart IFR/IMC if there is inbound traffic

If you're taking VFR, uhh, unless there is something I'm missing, it's like how do you know a car isn't going to hit you when you cross the road, maybe look both ways??

As for the radio part of it, you should have that to CTAF during taxi and runup and all, that's more than enough time to hear someone.

But again, I am under zero requirement to talk to you on the radio, use my radio, or even have a radio, for uncontrolled ops, so, like your mom shoulda taught you, look both ways and always be looking around.

Even at towered airports, even after given clearance to takeoff, I still look around, look and call out "clear left, clear right, clear on the box" before I take off. Trust but verify and all.
 
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I will occasionally opt to taxi on the runway at night rather than the taxiway, particularly at airports that don't have lighted taxiways or if I suspect there may be deer on the runway. Remember, stop, look and listen before entering the runway.
 
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James331 said:
Using a runway to taxi can come in handy, it's normally better condition and wider and better lit, just depends.

As for taxi vs back taxi, I've heard both at towered airports, back taxi is normally when I'm taxing to get full/more length for takeoff.

Taxi, is when I'm using the runway just to taxi, not going to be taking off on that strip.

As for radio calls, at uncontrolled fields I'll say taxiing via runway 13/31, or just runway 13 or runway 31. If inbound traffic doesn't get that, they are too far lost for radio ops to help anyways.




Well ATC isn't going to clear you to depart IFR/IMC if there is inbound traffic

If you're taking VFR, uhh, unless there is something I'm missing, it's like how do you know a car isn't going to hit you when you cross the road, maybe look both ways??

As for the radio part of it, you should have that to CTAF during taxi and runup and all, that's more than enough time to hear someone.

But again, I am under zero requirement to talk to you on the radio, use my radio, or even have a radio, for uncontrolled ops, so, like your mom shoulda taught you, look both ways and always be looking around.

Even at towered airports, even after given clearance to takeoff, I still look around, look and call out "clear left, clear right, clear on the box" before I take off. Trust but verify and all.
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Well, the analogy you give lacks a little. I in fact did describe exactly that (looking all around) and raised my inexperienced concern if then announcing intentions was enough (while always looking).

But crossing the road in a car bears very little similarity....unless you often drive the wrong way down a one way street, turn around, and a then do some kind of checklist that takes a minute or two, all the while hoping a car doesn't come along an not see you.

Luckily I did get some good advice, but I stated I know that I don't know but I SEE that it is very imoritant so asked. I am pretty sure yet looking for incoming traffic, announcing entering and backtracking, taxiing, turning around and getting through the pre takeoff checklist takes enough time a plane not in sight when I entered could be almost ready to land....

I'm trying to get what the safest way to do this is. But I just am unsure if there is more to it, or that is it?
Basically you look, broadcast intentions, and on the runway, I can not at that point se behind me, so I can't see if a plane is coming in, yet hope the rules make it that tht plan has to look for me and avoid...
 
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Years ago, all this was carefully explained by my instructor. At a towered airport you asked before doing anything and usually you used the taxiway. Why not? At a smaller one runway airport you simply swung around as you radioed your intentions and back taxi. They don't mention this anymore!?
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Years ago, all this was carefully explained by my instructor. At a towered airport you asked before doing anything and usually you used the taxiway. Why not? At a smaller one runway airport you simply swung around as you radioed your intentions and back taxi. They don't mention this anymore!?
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Thanks, yes...but very causually mentioned. Of course, also there is looking both ways.

Maybe it is the other side of it I need to get to help me understand. Coming in on a straight in final for example, as a pilot I have to be listening (but as james331 says, he has no duty to use the radio) but VFR doesn't require a radio so if I can't listen or broadcast, I am guessing the default is coming in, looking very carefully and if I see a plane on the runway ready to take off, I wait, hold a pattern?


I will of course talk with my instructor on this too.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Years ago, all this was carefully explained by my instructor. At a towered airport you asked before doing anything and usually you used the taxiway. Why not? At a smaller one runway airport you simply swung around as you radioed your intentions and back taxi. They don't mention this anymore!?
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LongRoadBob said:
Thanks, yes...but very causually mentioned. Of course, also there is looking both ways.

Maybe it is the other side of it I need to get to help me understand. Coming in on a straight in final for example, as a pilot I have to be listening (but as james331 says, he has no duty to use the radio) but VFR doesn't require a radio so if I can't listen or broadcast, I am guessing the default is coming in, looking very carefully and if I see a plane on the runway ready to take off, I wait, hold a pattern?


I will of course talk with my instructor on this too.
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not having a radio and using it correctly is really not too bright. At a smaller non towered airport you can get bumped off or kill someone else, or both. I've owned several small aircraft without electrical systems. Installing an external antenna is not difficult for a good mechanic and the radio is easily found at sportys. It's not fair to the majority who do have a radio and try to do it the right way. Common sense and common courtesy.
 
Well it is just like crossing the road, when I cross a one way I still look both ways, when tower clears me I still look both ways, I have a pretty cool life and I'm not 100% trusting someone on a radio or a tower operator with it, trust and verify.

If you see someone it's just judgement, just like crossing the road.

And for IFR, those are often the worst, I've seen folks just make a single call on CTAF, flip back over to approach and that's nearly that for their CTAF radio ops
 
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James331 said:
Well it is just like crossing the road, when I cross a one way I still look both ways, when tower clears me I still look both ways, I have a pretty cool life and I'm not 100% trusting someone on a radio or a tower operator with it, trust and verify.
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:yeahthat: 100% agree! I always stressed this to my students, whether controller/uncontrolled airport, clear final AND the departure end for other planes before and as you taxi onto the runway.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
No...it's common sense. Tune into the CTAF and listen before you arrive in the vicinity of the airport, and you'll hear traffic calls.
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We can go round and round about this.
That's just not the case.

Open another thread and I'll be happy to give my thoughts.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I know - I roared when I learned the FAA had been caught up in that internet controversy to the extent of putting it in a publication! Hilarious.
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They do it quite a bit. See my post that they did a whole article on logging PIC time, a favorite of Internet debates, in this month's Safety Briefing magazine.

Dan Thomas said:
So some pilots have to be spoon-fed?
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Yes. See above. LOL.

Kritchlow said:
I am willing to debate this, but this isn't the appropriate thread.
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No need. It's somewhat obvious. ;)
 
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