Taking a few lessons with a second CFI?

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NovemberZulu

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Zulu
Hello all, student pilot here and occasional lurker. I have an etiquette question on flight training. Like the OP in the When is it time?? thread, I've racked up quite a few hours now and my landings are still too inconsistent to get a solo signoff. I think a few lessons with another instructor might help pinpoint the problem(s), but I don't want to offend my current CFI. It took a lot of hunting to find someone who is professional, patient and can accommodate my schedule.

I'm sure you're thinking "If he's really a professional he should be happy to suggest another instructor to help." But please bear with me for a moment. My experience from another industry was that taking lessons with another instructor was akin to giving your primary instructor the finger. Heaven forbid you show your face again--that was an invitation for awkwardness, snide comments and all sorts of drama. It's left me extremely nervous bringing the topic up with my CFI. I doubt he would be that petty (and if he was I'd be gone in a heartbeat), but I don't have any friends in aviation so I'm really not sure how most pilot student/instructor relationships are.

Reading through threads on here, getting a second opinion, especially for landings, doesn't seem unusual. But as a student, do you feel obligated to let your instructor know BEFORE you take a few lessons with someone else? Or did you tell him afterwards?

As an instructor, would you be offended if you're student took a few lessons with another instructor without letting you know?

I'm sure someone will chime in to say "It's your money, if you're not happy just find a new instructor." I agree 100%, but I am happy with him and there's not many instructors who can work with my schedule on a regular basis. It's just the landings that have been so dam elusive :mad2:
 
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I really doubt your instructor will be offended. Many programs require a check by a second instructor before solo. It can be a helpful aid and everyone knows it.

If he does happen to take offense, he's not a good instructor. But I've never even heard of that happening, though lots of students worry about it.
 
Good instructors should have no problem with you flying with another instructor, they may even make a recommendation as to who you should fly with.

I would recommend you tell your instructor you would like to try a lesson or two with someone else and ask who he would recommend.


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
I don't think it's true. Here is a thread I started last June with advice.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60516

Fast forward, got the sign off, been flying ever since and am still friendly with CFI. As a matter of fact, I am flying with him on January 1. My advice? Do what you need to do. A second opinion is always a good idea.
 
This is one piece of advice / comment I received. It really made sense.

"Any competent CFI should not fear what's essentially a stage check. It may even help move you past an issue or two that he was struggling with."
 
You should fly with another instructor from time to time whether you are having problems or not. Get as much experience as you possibly can. Your instructor will not mind. If he does, then he is too insecure.

One of the problems that instructors face is that their students tend to believe they are 'flying god'. If you rely upon him to be perfect, then you are shortchanging yourself.
 
I agree with flying with different CFI's. You might have something you are struggling on. A different CFI might show you a different way, perspective of doing it, which may help you.
 
CPA: sounds like I'm exactly where you were. Glad it worked out for you and hope to be saying the same soon!


asgcpa said:
This is one piece of advice / comment I received. It really made sense.

"Any competent CFI should not fear what's essentially a stage check. It may even help move you past an issue or two that he was struggling with."
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Definitely makes me feel better. Thanks all. Maybe I've been making a mountain out of a molehill.
 
My CFI has said he likes it if students occasional fly with a different CFI.
 
Speaking as an instructor, I'd be grumpy if my trainee just went off and flew with another instructor I didn't know without telling me. That's how disconnects and discontinuities begin.

However, I'd have no problem at all if my trainee told me s/he wanted to fly with someone else for a second opinion as long as I got to recommend such an instructor. I'd want to know that the other instructor also teaches the same procedures-oriented style of flying, to brief him/her on the trainee's status, and to get a debrief after flying with my trainee. Do it that way and it can be a very positive experience. In fact, I've recommended this to a trainee on more than one occasion when we hit a wall in training.
 
When I did my PPL and IR, flights with other instructors and check flights by the chief instructor were programmatic. But I agree that if you're working with an individual CFI you should coordinate first before getting some other training.
 
i don't think he will have a problem with you getting another perspective from another CFI. i did my PPL training with my first CFI, who was an amazing instructor. unfortunately his planes were always breaking which caused me to look somewhere else for instruction. i called him up and he said no hard feelings and that he understood and he wished me good luck on future ratings. i still keep in touch with him and sometimes rent from him as well
 
Have you ever read "The Scarlet Letter?" :D
 
Another thing to keep in mind -- every instructor teaches a little differently, and every student learns a little differently. You may find that flying an hour or two with another instructor gives you a perspective on how to do something (like land) that you didn't have before. Then again, you may find out just how good you have it with your current instructor.

For me, it was a slow route to getting my flare and touchdown to the point where my instructor was satisfied with it. Even then it was far less than graceful. Enough to get me past the checkride, but never enough to satisfy me. That didn't come until later on, when one day it just "clicked" and I stopped trying to flare and touchdown. Now I get within a few feet of the runway, flaps down, throttle at idle, and try to keep it flying as long as possible. Works every time. It may help to stop thinking of "the flare" as an action to take, and more of something that just naturally happens as you try to hold off that last little bit. I refer to it as "trying not to land, and failing gracefully".
 
I was around your point and I ended up switching instructors completely because I was stuck. It was actually for a few other reasons as well, the school, scheduling, etc. There was nothing wrong with my old CFI, it's just that I was stuck with her teaching. She had suggested I fly with another instructor, but the school screwed it up pretty badly. She's not a bad CFI, but I was stuck with her for about ten lessons being close to soloing and it not happening. As soon as I switched, I soloed in three lessons and saw improvement in every lesson instead of feeling stuck. My old CFI remained friendly though because I didn't do it in a bad way and I told her when I soloed.
 
Ron Levy said:
Speaking as an instructor, I'd be grumpy if my trainee just went off and flew with another instructor I didn't know without telling me. That's how disconnects and discontinuities begin.

However, I'd have no problem at all if my trainee told me s/he wanted to fly with someone else for a second opinion as long as I got to recommend such an instructor. I'd want to know that the other instructor also teaches the same procedures-oriented style of flying, to brief him/her on the trainee's status, and to get a debrief after flying with my trainee. Do it that way and it can be a very positive experience. In fact, I've recommended this to a trainee on more than one occasion when we hit a wall in training.
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Control freak much?
 
Flying with another instructor is like taking a stage check . Also if done right ,the instructors can get together and discuss your progress,or lack of progress.
 
When I meet a new student for the first time (for any rating), I have a written list of things I discuss. One of these is exactly this scenario. If either of us think that progress isn't being made, let's talk and I'm happy to recommend another CFI - whether it's for a couple of flights or a permanent change. That's the way it has to be - I want the person to get the rating they're seeking, whether it's with me or not. Any reasonable CFI will not have a problem with that. Talk to him about it.
 
EdFred said:
Control freak much?
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At the risk of rising to troll bait...

No, just looking out for the student's best interest. Much like when people go to three different doctors without letting each one know what they're doing with the other, and end up with counterproductive or even mutually incompatible treatment regimens. After over 40 years in this business, I've come to believe that what's best for the trainee is open, frank, and fully informed communication. For that reason, I'll get grumpy if a trainee goes to another instructor without the communication I described above. I don't want to be working at cross-purposes with another instructor, as that too often ends up with the trainee really confused and frustrated and then blames the instructors for that happening.

And if the trainee doesn't trust me enough to tell me s/he's doing this, I don't want to be training him/her any more, anyway. No trust = no effective learning, and that just wastes both our time and the trainee's money.
 
Ron Levy said:
At the risk of rising to troll bait...

No, just looking out for the student's best interest. Much like when people go to three different doctors without letting each one know what they're doing with the other, and end up with counterproductive or even mutually incompatible treatment regimens. After over 40 years in this business, I've come to believe that what's best for the trainee is open, frank, and fully informed communication. For that reason, I'll get grumpy if a trainee goes to another instructor without the communication I described above. I don't want to be working at cross-purposes with another instructor, as that too often ends up with the trainee really confused and frustrated and then blames the instructors for that happening.

And if the trainee doesn't trust me enough to tell me s/he's doing this, I don't want to be training him/her any more, anyway. No trust = no effective learning, and that just wastes both our time and the trainee's money.
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So a student is going to be in Colorado for three weeks and wants a bit of mountain flying, are you really going to tell him who he can and cannot fly with while out there? GMAFB. I mean, I know the Chesapeake Bay area is a hotbed of mountain flying, and you're probably the self appointed expert for the region, but as soon as someone tells me who I can and can't fly with, they just made the decision for me that I won't be flying with them anymore.

I was on vacation, and a student of mine went over to a local place that had Diamonds for rent, and he took one or two lessons. No big deal, we still got him passed in under 43 hours. I certainly didn't throw a temper tantrum because someone else might be able to criticize my instruction. As it was he came away a better perspective. Yeah, that instructor and I took a different approach to teaching, but there was no confusion or waste of money or time.

If a student getting a lesson or two from another instructor is going ruin all the work you've done, and generate trust issues, maybe you need to reassess how you teach. Trust issues? Really? Wellington says hello.
 
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Hang in there. The landings will come. Here is what happened with me. My instructor and I were not getting anywhere after just under 100 landings. We agreed to have me ride with another instructor at the school. It helped some but not quite there. Went to the third instructor and something he said or did clicked on my 134th landing. Wish I knew what it was, but it clicked. Been fine since then.

Talk to your instructor. Mine was as frustrated (maybe even more) than I was. In my case, he suggested it. In your case, he may be afraid if he tells you to fly with someone else you may think he is giving up on you. Just talk it through with him.
 
I got my PPL in 60 hours. Flew with 3 CFI's. Did most of my hours with my primary and he left for 3 weeks literally RIGHT before I was going to solo. So, had to do an hour in the practice area with the Chief CFI, who also used to be a DPE and she solo'd me. Then did most of the rest with my primary and then flew with a newly minted CFI right before my checkride because she had done several with the same guy already. I definitely learned something from all of them - especially on the landings.

I'd say get as many opinions as possible, esp if you are having some troubles. But, I'd also agree it's worth discussing with your CFI...I wouldn't have just gone to a different one without at least saying something to mine.
 
EdFred said:
So a student is going to be in Colorado for three weeks and wants a bit of mountain flying, are you really going to tell him who he can and cannot fly with while out there? GMAFB. I mean, I know the Chesapeake Bay area is a hotbed of mountain flying, and you're probably the self appointed expert for the region, but as soon as someone tells me who I can and can't fly with, they just made the decision for me that I won't be flying with them anymore.

I was on vacation, and a student of mine went over to a local place that had Diamonds for rent, and he took one or two lessons. No big deal, we still got him passed in under 43 hours. I certainly didn't throw a temper tantrum because someone else might be able to criticize my instruction. As it was he came away a better perspective. Yeah, that instructor and I took a different approach to teaching, but there was no confusion or waste of money or time.

If a student getting a lesson or two from another instructor is going ruin all the work you've done, and generate trust issues, maybe you need to reassess how you teach. Trust issues? Really? Wellington says hello.
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I was right -- troll bait, and I bit. :sigh:
 
NovemberZulu said:
CPA: sounds like I'm exactly where you were. Glad it worked out for you and hope to be saying the same soon!




Definitely makes me feel better. Thanks all. Maybe I've been making a mountain out of a molehill.
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November Zulu, I am still flying on occasion with the CFI that I left in June. He and I remained friends, and, we are clicking better now that I am doing instrument work. Although he is a wealth of information and is a designated pilot examiner, a "heavy" captain, you have to pick your spots. I feel that perhaps it was better I left then, rather than getting more upset and frustrated. Now I can really use his expertise. He is like the PhD. We have had a great two sessions as my primary instrument instructor has been unavailable. I am fortunate as there is a bunch of good instructors that belong to my flying club. So you never know.....I was honest, placed the blame on me, and since the instructor is. A professional he understood. Just communicate. Good luck!
 
Ron's advice is sound. Talk to your instructor find another CFI. Get them talking to each other before and after you fly with the new one. I don't have 40 years teaching as ron does but I have often used other instructors to augment the training of my students. It is at times just what is needed to move someone along in their training. Good instructors are more concerned with your success than their own ego. From your description of your instructor it sounds like you shouldn't have any problem.
 
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