Tailwheel landing tips

FWIW I've found that it's more common that pilots do not like one particular form of landing versus the airplane.
 
Did your stinson tell you that? The 108 I flew didn't seem to mind a three point at all. There's one at my home field now. The owner seems to three point it every time I see him land. I think it's personal preference. So be it.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
A low time tail dragger pilot can get into trouble quickly doing wheel landings. The airplane is not done when only the mains have touched. It's still got lots of energy left. As the tail comes down , rudder effect is lessened and trouble begins if the pilot is not hep to this. The brakes can help a lot provided you use them correctly, ( quick little stabs at them only!) during this transition and as the plane slows, by keeping it straight, especially in a cross wind. Practice, practice practice. I owned both a Stearman and a 195 and they both required undivided attention on landing. Wheel landings in either are after you really know the airplane WELL! To avoid big trouble, I always tried to three point them. I have around 3500 hours in tail wheels but I never flew one that " preferred " wheel landings. While 3500 is not a great deal of time, I was and am pretty good at it....( if you ground loop a 195, chances are you will collapse the gear case, then a prop strike occurs. At this point, unless you have lots of insurance or big dough, you may as well sell it for parts or junk it.)
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95% of the time (even as a student pilot) I did wheel landings in the Cessna 120 - just seemed easier - no problem setting the tail down with the nice Cleavland disks for control. With my LSA 95% of the time I do three points. :dunno:
 
jesse said:
FWIW I've found that it's more common that pilots do not like one particular form of landing versus the airplane.
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Agree, but there are exceptions of course. Wheel landing the Pitts is an exercise in extreme pointlessness, and you rarely see anyone wheel a Pitts. You won't see anyone wheel land a Sukhoi due to prop clearance. And then you'll always have folks bring up the fact that DC-3's shouldn't be 3-pointed, as if they relate to what 99% of us fly. ;) In most airplanes, it's a matter of preference. I've noticed these days that more people in general seem to do wheelies than 3-pointers. I think it's because they're easier once you get the hang of them, and I think lots of folks use them to avoid those embarrassing bounces and plop-downs. Wheel landing does not require precise airspeed or attitude control at touchdown, only descent rate. A good 3-pointer requires the descent rate to stop, and the 3-point attitude to coincide perfectly at the runway height. I think it's more challenging to do a perfect 3-pointer than a wheelie, so I like the challenge. I also generally like the minimum speed and energy of the 3-pointer. I see wheelies as landing with excess speed unless conditions and/or airplane characteristics present a compelling reason to do them.
 
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whifferdill said:
I think it's more challenging to do a perfect 3-pointer than a wheelie, so I like the challenge.
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Funny, I found the opposite.

I also generally like the minimum speed and energy of the 3-pointer. I see wheelies as landing with excess speed unless conditions and/or airplane characteristics present a compelling reason to do them.
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:yes:
 
My two cents to add to the pile:
A Champ will practically land itself in calm air, if you let it. Power and trim set right, use your peripheral vision, and do NOT try to flare... if you are seeing the same "deck angle" as you enter ground effect that you do when it's sitting on the ground, just hold it there and wait a few seconds. If you're overshooting (most likely because you came in a bit too fast), just take some power out. But don't do anything with the elevator once you see that angle. A 3-pointer with a Champ isn't really a full stall so much as the end of a mushing glide.

Back stick should only come when the tailwheel is definitely planted, and even then, it doesn't need a lot of up elevator. Other than directional errors, the worst thing you can do with a Champ is try to feel for the runway with the tailwheel... do that, and you will learn how strong the gear legs are. :D If you stall and drop it on, or touch down with too much vertical speed, a Champ does not bounce like more stiff-legged birds- it will hunker down, then surprise you by leaping back into the air, ready to stall and then bounce even harder.

Overall, though, the 7AC is verrrry forgiving; just relax and pay attention and you will get the hang of it. And if all the other advice in this thread doesn't seem to help, go up and do some slow flight descents to a pre-determined altitude... maybe even force it to stall at the bottom; that might help you find that sweet spot of power, trim, and stick pressure.
 
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When you figure it out let us know, I've been doing this tail wheel thing for awhile and you'll find no two conventional gear aircraft will land the same. Most old aircraft have been bent some time in the past and tweaked to fly / land different.
 
whifferdill said:
Agree, but there are exceptions of course. Wheel landing the Pitts is an exercise in extreme pointlessness, and you rarely see anyone wheel a Pitts. You won't see anyone wheel land a Sukhoi due to prop clearance. And then you'll always have folks bring up the fact that DC-3's shouldn't be 3-pointed, as if they relate to what 99% of us fly. ;) In most airplanes, it's a matter of preference. I've noticed these days that more people in general seem to do wheelies than 3-pointers. I think it's because they're easier once you get the hang of them, and I think lots of folks use them to avoid those embarrassing bounces and plop-downs. Wheel landing does not require precise airspeed or attitude control at touchdown, only descent rate. A good 3-pointer requires the descent rate to stop, and the 3-point attitude to coincide perfectly at the runway height. I think it's more challenging to do a perfect 3-pointer than a wheelie, so I like the challenge. I also generally like the minimum speed and energy of the 3-pointer. I see wheelies as landing with excess speed unless conditions and/or airplane characteristics present a compelling reason to do them.
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Jesse, I agree with your observation that you see more guys wheel landing these days. If you look at films from the 50s and earlier you will see almost everyone three pointed whatever they flew. I have a couple of friends who flew fighters in WWII and they both said they three pointed every time in the P-47 and P-51. The trend I see is that most pilots are much too fast on final in either tri or tailwheel airplanes. Get the airplane at the right speed over the threashhold lined up straight and landing is a piece of cake. I also three point in a crosswind every time no matter what airplane I'm flying. I want to be all done flying as it settles onto the ground. Now having said that I do wheel land the N3N quite a bit if I have a passenger as I can squeek it on smoothly every time. My SNJ was easier to wheel land also but in both I do more three points just for the challenge. Don
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Did your stinson tell you that? The 108 I flew didn't seem to mind a three point at all. There's one at my home field now. The owner seems to three point it every time I see him land. I think it's personal preference. So be it.
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It gets real funky with a three point. I thought it was me so i threw the keys to the flight instructor that teaches tailwheel at my airport. He had trouble with it too. Does not wanna keep straight at any landing speed. When I 2 point, she is smooth as butter. I keep tail up till wind wont hold it up anymore. I can land shortfield 2 point almost as short as the champ on the field does 3 point. I have talked to several stinson owners. They confirm that the -3 are better 2 point landers.
 
Wag your rudder back and forth on final. It will get you prepared for directional control on the ground. This tip from Wally (RIP) who had 30,000 hours giving instruction in tailwheel airplanes.
 
GAZOO said:
It gets real funky with a three point. I thought it was me so i threw the keys to the flight instructor that teaches tailwheel at my airport. He had trouble with it too. Does not wanna keep straight at any landing speed. When I 2 point, she is smooth as butter. I keep tail up till wind wont hold it up anymore. I can land shortfield 2 point almost as short as the champ on the field does 3 point. I have talked to several stinson owners. They confirm that the -3 are better 2 point landers.
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When was the last time your hydraulic struts were removed, disassembled, cleaned and re-serviced?

And the gear properly tracked?
 
FlylikeaGirl said:
I'm pretty good at keeping it straight and keeping my speed at 60, so I think it might be my depth perception.
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Or it might be your sight picture. If you try a few landings from the back seat you'll see more of the airframe for judging your landing attitude and less of the tempting, bad habit things, to look at like your airspeed indicator and the view over the nose (your instructor sitting in front of you will block that). After a few of those, trade places and place more emphasis on the same visual cues you relied on from the back seat, but weren't really cognizant of before.

dtuuri
 
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The 'wagging tail' is a definitely excellent move to wake up the feet on final - especially if you're tired or not current in your taildragger!

Another point I'd comment on - the landing on the tailwheel first isn't the greatest idea, that's pretty hard on that tailwheel. For me that's an acceptable risk for short field bush operations to get 'er on slow as possible, but pretty hard on pavement when not necessary. There's just not THAT much spring back there compared to the mains.

Ground effect has an amazing effect on your float - so doing stalls at altitude doesn't really tell you everything. Feeling it at 2ft off the ground until you find stall and drop on will give you the best indicator of airspeed for final flare - then repeat it until you've mastered it....
 
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CRAZEDpilot said:
Another point I'd comment on - the landing on the tailwheel first isn't the greatest idea, that's pretty hard on that tailwheel.
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Nonsense. Tailwheels take a beating no matter what. Smoothly landing very slightly tailwheel first does not put an inordinate amount of stress on the tailwheel. Making a firm 3-point landing puts more stress on the tailwheel than a smooth tailwheel first landing. Touching down slightly tailwheel first is a good way to avoid those hippity hops on the early landing roll that can occur if you touch slightly mains first. When I say slightly tailwheel first, I mean an inch or two. Hell, I think making a firm landing slightly on the mains is harder on the tailwheel, since you can really slap the tailwheel down by doing that.
 
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Part of the problem is that "tailwheel" covers a multiude of sins - from DC-3s, to my little LSA, Cessna 195s, WW-I replicas, P-51s, Cubs, Pitts, Stearmans, etc.

One size does not fit all.

Mr. Maul advocated for the double womp tailwheel first landing. I wouldn't try that in something with a roller skate sized tailwheel.

Some airplanes have POS grabby brakes and you are best off not using them more than necessary on the runway. Others have nice progressive disks that are great to steer with.

In some, the tail comes up early and you roll on the mains for a while, others come off the ground in a three point attitude. And when the tail does come up, some will make a turn, some you won't notice.

Some have long soft oleo struts, some have bungees, some have spring gear and some have no spring at all.

etc. etc. etc.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Part of the problem is that "tailwheel" covers a multiude of sins - from DC-3s, to my little LSA, Cessna 195s, WW-I replicas, P-51s, Cubs, Pitts, Stearmans, etc.

One size does not fit all.

Mr. Maul advocated for the double womp tailwheel first landing. I wouldn't try that in something with a roller skate sized tailwheel.

Some airplanes have POS grabby brakes and you are best off not using them more than necessary on the runway. Others have nice progressive disks that are great to steer with.

In some, the tail comes up early and you roll on the mains for a while, others come off the ground in a three point attitude. And when the tail does come up, some will make a turn, some you won't notice.

Some have long soft oleo struts, some have bungees, some have spring gear and some have no spring at all.

etc. etc. etc.
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But not one of them steers itself on the runway. That's what makes all of them interesting and fun.

Over at homebuiltairplanes.com there have been some guys, wannabe homebuilders, that have wanted to build a taildragger but with automatic tailwheel steering so they can fly easily and safely. Can you believe it? Where has the initiative gone in this society?

Dan
 
kgruber said:
Wag your rudder back and forth on final. It will get you prepared for directional control on the ground. This tip from Wally (RIP) who had 30,000 hours giving instruction in tailwheel airplanes.
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I'll second that. My TW instructor was possibly a greenhorn by comparison- only 40 years giving instruction in the very same Champ he flew with me- but he did tell me "if you keep your feet moving, you can't go wrong". This was very good general advice.
It's fundamentally no different from steering a nosedragger on the ground... just amplified, I guess.
as with any aircraft, you might scare yourself a little, at first, as you explore the envelope... but the worst thing you can do is sit there waiting to see what will happen next.
 
jesse said:
FWIW I've found that it's more common that pilots do not like one particular form of landing versus the airplane.
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Some high-performance planes lose rudder authority in 3-point attitude at landing speeds.

My Stits Playboy is one such, and the F4U Corsair another. They ended up putting a longer tailwheel strut on the Corsair to keep the rudder in clean airflow during that last couple of seconds where the plane is deciding if it's in the air or on the ground. Until they did that, wheel landings were pretty much the only safe way.
 
kgruber said:
Wag your rudder back and forth on final. It will get you prepared for directional control on the ground.
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This is probably most useful for transitioning trike pilots with dead feet. Taken to the extreme, it can produce pilots who flap the rudder back and forth like mad for no good reason. I've seen lots of tailwheel pilots like that...flapping the rudder back and forth like crazy when it's not needed at all. I say use the rudder when necessary, and as little as possible. The smoothest tailwheel pilots do that. Once I even saw a pilot flapping the rudder back and forth like mad while taxiing on the taxiway. :confused:
 
RoscoeT said:
This is probably most useful for transitioning trike pilots with dead feet. Taken to the extreme, it can produce pilots who flap the rudder back and forth like mad for no good reason. I've seen lots of tailwheel pilots like that...flapping the rudder back and forth like crazy when it's not needed at all. I say use the rudder when necessary, and as little as possible. The smoothest tailwheel pilots do that. Once I even saw a pilot flapping the rudder back and forth like mad while taxiing on the taxiway. :confused:
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True enough... it's fairly good advice for those of us who had to sort of rediscover the rudder, but you can tell an experienced taildragger by how much they can do with minimal rudder or tailwheel movement.
 
Hi, everybody. I will post more and answer some questions when I'm at my desktop but wanted to say thanks for all the great advice and discussion. I am super pleased to say I earned my tailwheel endorsement today! Wahoo!

Tiffany
 
RoscoeT said:
Once I even saw a pilot flapping the rudder back and forth like mad while taxiing on the taxiway. :confused:
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He had recently transitioned from this:

Stearman%20Pedal%20Plane.jpg


Seriously, though, that constant pedal action wears out the whole rudder control system. Much of it is simple pivots, unlubricated and unbushed. Steel on steel. If he does that long enough he might wear into a clevis bolt far enough that it breaks. Both ends of both cables have those little 3/16" bolts. I've found them badly worn on low-time training airplanes. What must they look like on an old airplane, with the usual corrosion and that hasn't been apart for 30 or 40 years?

Dan
 
X3 Skier said:
Got my TW Endorsement at Red Stewart this summer with Joe Smith. Your experience was very similar to mine (and probably anyone else;)). After getting the use of rudder firmly in place in my head and using my peripheral vision for judging height above the grass, it became second nature. As others have saod, don't land it, let it land itself by gradually easing back on the stick, be on speed and when it's done flying, keep the stick firmly in your lap. BTW, Slipping in over the tree across the road from the end of 26 is a blast.

Just a hint, when Joe takes you over to Middletown, you are just about done. :D

That Champ has seen many many bounces so just relax and be smooth but firm on the control inputs.

Cheers
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Hi, there! I have been flying with Joe, too. The slipping was crazy fun!

Thanks for the good advice!
 
VanDy said:
Do your landings seem to better when landing to the west at 40I? When landing east I try and either land and get it real slow on the plateau or land on the slope. That will get you everytime and the drop off makes it interesting with your flare too!

Keep at it, you'll get it!

40I is a great place!
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Thanks, Van Dy. I love it there! Landing from the West is very tricky. We only used that runway once or twice.
 
rottydaddy said:
I'll second that. My TW instructor was possibly a greenhorn by comparison- only 40 years giving instruction in the very same Champ he flew with me- but he did tell me "if you keep your feet moving, you can't go wrong". This was very good general advice.
It's fundamentally no different from steering a nosedragger on the ground... just amplified, I guess.
as with any aircraft, you might scare yourself a little, at first, as you explore the envelope... but the worst thing you can do is sit there waiting to see what will happen next.
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For you both... this really helped me. I was too tense on the landing and making "happy feet" (not necessarily pressing the rudder, but "dancing") helped me remind myself to stay relaxed.
 
Okay, if you've read this far, you are really a trooper. lol

Here is what I think I was doing wrong:
1. Too tense on landing. This hurt me in several ways from ineffective control inputs to fixating on a point instead of taking in the whole site picture.
2. 1 was compounded by the fact that the more I tried to "relax" the worse it got and my confidence was starting to tank.

My poor instructor was trying everything but I was really in a vicious cycle at this point. Tense->Poor landing->More Tense->Worse landing

I could do everything else with relative ease from the falling leaf to spins to turns around a point to dutch rolls at various attitudes, but I. just. could. not. get. the damn. thing. landed.

So what worked? You armchair psychologists will love this one... I pretended like I was alone in the airplane (and so with the assumption, I guess, that my instructor wasn't there to "save" me.)

For whatever reason, that did the trick. I forced myself to really look around and to "take charge" of the airplane and the landing and aside from one not so great landing (which I also recovered from without the help of my CFI), I was able to consistently land it well.

I learned a lot more than how to fly a tailwheel through this entire experience. I tried really hard to just enjoy the learning process. Not that I was always very successful at it, but I really tried. haha I can be too competitive for my own good.

40I offers a 10 lesson aerobatics course and I believe that will be my birthday present this March! :)
 
Good for you! It's amazing how being "solo" (or at least thinking that you are) focuses the mind.
 
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