Switching switches.

[stratobee]

When I did my panel on my old plane, I asked if I could switch some of the rougher toggle switches for something else/newer. They were a little elusive on the subject, but I got the feeling the general answer was no. I didn't push the point.

But here I am again thinking it would be so nice to have electrical switches that illuminated, looked good and were easy to find in the dark. My question is - if a switch is correctly rated, can you swap it out? Or does it have to be "certified" or get a field approval?

Today there are so many cool switches made, it would be a shame not to be able to use them.
Here's a LED-tipped toggle switch that would be very nice to have at night:

And NKK makes these really cool programmable LCD switches that can change not only colour, but text or even animation as you depress them.

So, what's the consensus - can they be put in legally or not?

 

[flyingron]

Nope...There are a number of ways a part may be legally installed in the aircraft but just being "rated for the current" and "cool" doesn't qualify.

First you have to have a part legally manufactured to be installed in aircraft in general.
Then you have to show that the installation in YOUR aircraft is permitted.

 

[ateamer]

Just one more reason to go Experimental.

 

[frfly172]

Another reason we need a quicker rewrite on the faa chapter 23.

 

[Henning]

Find ones with a Mil Spec number and the correct ratings, they will be acceptable as Owner Produced Parts.

 

[Tom-D]

Find ones with a Mil Spec number and the correct ratings, they will be acceptable as Owner Produced Parts.

Not true. You can not prove you supervised the manufacture of the part.

 

[Henning]

Not true. You can not prove you supervised the manufacture of the part.

That is only one way to fulfill the requirement , you need not be involved in the direct manufacture of the part.

 

[Tom-D]

When I did my panel on my old plane, I asked if I could switch some of the rougher toggle switches for something else/newer.
So, what's the consensus - can they be put in legally or not?

Replacement parts must have PMA or have all requirements of owner produced parts to be legal to install. with the exception of common MS/AN/NAS hardware

 

[Henning]

Replacement parts must have PMA or have all requirements of owner produced parts to be legal to install. with the exception of common MS/AN/NAS hardware

A switch is common MS hardware, that's why I said the MS part number does the trick.

 

[Tom-D]

That is only one way to fulfill the requirement , you need not be involved in the direct manufacture of the part.

That is not the FAA's opinion.

You do not have to prove you manufactured it, but you must be able to prove you had a hand in its manufacture. opening a box does comply with the contention of you helped make it.

 

[Tom-D]

A switch is common MS hardware, that's why I said the MS part number does the trick.

Nope. they have part numbers that do not start with AN/MS or NAS. they are not nuts bolts and common hardware

21.9 Replacement and modification articles.
(a) If a person knows, or should know, that a replacement or modification article is reasonably likely to be installed on a type-certificated product, the person may not produce that article unless it is—

(1) Produced under a type certificate;

(2) Produced under an FAA production approval;

(3) A standard part (such as a nut or bolt) manufactured in compliance with a government or established industry specification;

(4) A commercial part as defined in §21.1 of this part;

(5) Produced by an owner or operator for maintaining or altering that owner or operator's product; or

(6) Fabricated by an appropriately rated certificate holder with a quality system, and consumed in the repair or alteration of a product or article in accordance with part 43 of this chapter.

(b) Except as provided in paragraphs (a)(1) through (a)(2) of this section, a person who produces a replacement or modification article for sale may not represent that part as suitable for installation on a type-certificated product.

(c) Except as provided in paragraphs (a)(1) through (a)(2) of this section, a person may not sell or represent an article as suitable for installation on an aircraft type-certificated under §§21.25(a)(2) or 21.27 unless that article—

(1) Was declared surplus by the U.S. Armed Forces, and

(2) Was intended for use on that aircraft model by the U.S. Armed Forces.

 

[kontiki]

You might refer to AC 20-62E on Replacement Parts

 

[Henning]

That is not the FAA's opinion.

You do not have to prove you manufactured it, but you must be able to prove you had a hand in its manufacture. opening a box does comply with the contention of you helped make it.

Not true, you can provide the specifications required and assure they have been met.

 

[James331]

The fact that there is this much crap in a thread over a simple switch shows we need to do some house cleaning with the FAA.

 

[Henning]

The fact that there is this much crap in a thread over a simple switch shows we need to do some house cleaning with the FAA.

The papers are on the table with the Experimental Non Commercial category.

 

[RotorAndWing]

The fact that there is this much crap in a thread over a simple switch shows we need to do some house cleaning with the FAA.

Not really, the rules are fairly simple to understand.

It's the "internet lawyers" that turn it into such a clusterf%ck.

 

[Tom-D]

Not true, you can provide the specifications required and assure they have been met.

A switch you have bought, you did not do this.

 

[Henning]

A switch you have bought, you did not do this.

Of course I did, I researched the specification from the manufacturer and provided that to the supplier. I can't hand him the old switch and say "give me something that does this." I can go in and as for a part meeting a set of specifications.

 

[James331]

Not really, the rules are fairly simple to understand.

It's the "internet lawyers" that turn it into such a clusterf%ck.

Yeah but do we really need to regulate a switch this much

 

[RotorAndWing]

Yeah but do we really need to regulate a switch this much

It's not, this is just a bunch of sciolist making a mountain out of a moehill.

 

[James331]

I get that, but if dude wants to install a switch with a LED tip is that really that big of a deal?

I'll just keep my little white rockers in my 185, but some of the certified regs need to loosen up a wee bit

 

[RotorAndWing]

I get that, but if dude wants to install a switch with a LED tip is that really that big of a deal?

What he does with his airplane is his business.

FWIW, I don't like switches with LED's for the simple reason they are a nuisance at night. The A320's RCP has LED switches and they are a pain in the a$$ because you can't dim them.

I'll just keep my little white rockers in my 185, but some of the certified regs need to loosen up a wee bit

As with most regulations in the FAA, they are there for a reason. The FAA does give an owner a way to not comply with these regulations, it's called Experimental-Amateur Built.

 

[N801BH]

What he does with his airplane is his business.

FWIW, I don't like switches with LED's for the simple reason they are a nuisance at night. The A320's RCP has LED switches and they are a pain in the a$$ because you can't dim them.



As with most regulations in the FAA, they are there for a reason. The FAA does give an owner a way to not comply with these regulations, it's called Experimental-Amateur Built.

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

FWIW, I don't like switches with LED's for the simple reason they are a nuisance at night. The A320's RCP has LED switches and they are a pain in the a$$ because you can't dim them.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I spent 13 years installing and using lighted and unlighted switches on emergency vehicle panels. Before you install a lighted switch like that, buy ONE and test it on a battery in the garage with it pitch black. Let your eyes adjust to the darkness for about 20 minutes. Then point the lighted switch at your face from 2 feet away. Dimly lit switches are nice. The light makes them easy to identify. But the ones with really bright LEDs in them just distract and annoy you.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Replacement parts must have PMA or have all requirements of owner produced parts to be legal to install. with the exception of common MS/AN/NAS hardware

yup....which is why there are ADs written on several switches with manufacturing/design defects.

this stuff is all fun and games....till someone loses an eye.

 

[bnt83]

A switch you have bought, you did not do this.

Ordered some Cessna vacuum hose the other day from cessnadirect, the part number had been superseded to R22xxxx (I forget the xxxx part) but what came in the box with 8130-3 is Gates brand marine 4129G fuel hose.

Fortunately it was only like $3.50 a foot.

The same thing happened with the larger diameter hose between the vacuum pump and firewall. But that hose now lists for >$20/foot

 

[weirdjim]

FWIW, I don't like switches with LED's for the simple reason they are a nuisance at night. The A320's RCP has LED switches and they are a pain in the a$$ because you can't dim them.

Most LED switches I am familiar with bring the LED contacts out separately. Evidently the "engineer" that put the A320 together doesn't understand the principle of reverse dimming ... as the panel lights come up at night the bright lights (like switches and marker beacon lights) get dimmer automatically. OR there is a separate dimmer control for the daytime lights.

Jim

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

Evidently the "engineer" that put the A320 together doesn't understand the principle of reverse dimming ...

 

[Henning]

Most LED switches I am familiar with bring the LED contacts out separately. Evidently the "engineer" that put the A320 together doesn't understand the principle of reverse dimming ... as the panel lights come up at night the bright lights (like switches and marker beacon lights) get dimmer automatically. OR there is a separate dimmer control for the daytime lights.

Jim

I much prefer a dimmer switch to automatic dimming. I like to keep all lighting as low as possible, to the point I am just able to recognize indications. If I need to see something more clearly, I just turn it up a tad.

 

[bnt83]

I much prefer a dimmer switch to automatic dimming. I like to keep all lighting as low as possible, to the point I am just able to recognize indications. If I need to see something more clearly, I just turn it up a tad.

Also my preference. I really dislike some appliances due to dimming issues. Some were just poorly installed.

 

[jsstevens]

I much prefer a dimmer switch to automatic dimming. I like to keep all lighting as low as possible, to the point I am just able to recognize indications. If I need to see something more clearly, I just turn it up a tad.

This is an ongoing annoyance between my wife and I, she prefers dash lights full on and I prefer them as dim as possible while still being able to see them. In here defense, in her Honda, with the electronic dashboard, if you turn on the headlights in daylight because it's raining the dashboard disappears. I always try to remember to turn them up when I get out.

John

 

[Henning]

Also my preference. I really dislike some appliances due to dimming issues. Some were just poorly installed.

The 430 was really annoyingly bright, I'd put my phone in front of it at night.

 

[weirdjim]

I much prefer a dimmer switch to automatic dimming. I like to keep all lighting as low as possible, to the point I am just able to recognize indications. If I need to see something more clearly, I just turn it up a tad.

The dimmer I designed and sold for a couple of dozen years had an internal adjustment for reverse dimming, all the way from no dimming to completely out. When installing, you had your choice of how much to reverse dim as a function of night light brightness. I could have brought out a second control but most folks by their comments after installation said that they preferred a single control with internal reverse dimming adjustment.

Jim

 

[RotorAndWing]

Most LED switches I am familiar with bring the LED contacts out separately. Evidently the "engineer" that put the A320 together doesn't understand the principle of reverse dimming ... as the panel lights come up at night the bright lights (like switches and marker beacon lights) get dimmer automatically. OR there is a separate dimmer control for the daytime lights.

Jim

Every switch in the over head and forward panel brights or dims with a switch on the overhead. For whatever reason (French?) the RCP has LED background lights in each post and they don't dim. At night I would take a sticky post it note and put on it to keep it from being annoying.