Swahili Instruction Manual

Discussion in 'Technical Corner' started by weirdjim, Jul 15, 2019.

  1. weirdjim

    weirdjim En-Route

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    I've got a couple of wireless devices, a D-Link router and an Asus Wireless Access Point. All I want to do is make a wireless range extender. That doesn't seem like the end of the world, but I've been rassling these little B@$+@rds all afternoon with an instruction manual that must have been translated from the Swahili by a Frenchman with a bad accent.

    I'm ready to chuck about $200 worth of hardware into the dumper, so I ask ... if I''m going out to buy a decent piece of hardware, is there a manufacturer that writes an instruction manual comprehensible by the average liberal arts graduate? Not mention a graduate EE.

    Jim
     
  2. asicer

    asicer En-Route

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    Will any of them take OpenWRT?
     
  3. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    I believe (after trying the same thing myself) you can't just turn a router and WAP into a range extender. The equipment has to be designed to support such a use.
     
  4. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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  5. Let'sgoflying!

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  7. jbarrass

    jbarrass Line Up and Wait

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  8. texasclouds

    texasclouds Cleared for Takeoff

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    I tried to get a D-link wireless printer adapter to work about 12 yrs ago. After several hours of failure, I was ready to crush it in the vise. Then this asian computer kid came over and did it in less than 5 min.
     
  9. Brad Z

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    I'm convinced that every tech problem in the world has been solved with a YouTube video. Seriously, you may want to search YouTube, there's a good chance someone has done a video walking you through what you're trying to do.
     
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  10. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Pattern Altitude

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    I agree. I’m replacing the side mirror on my suburban via yT this coming weekend.
     
  11. DaleB

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    Nah. It's just Chinglish.
    You're not the target audience for those devices, since you want to do more than just plug them in and use the default settings. If you want better documentation, there's Cisco... real Cisco, not that consumer market crap... but that route has its own set of frustrations.

    Good luck to you.
     
  12. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    So Jim needs to find an Asian kid then.
     
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  13. texasclouds

    texasclouds Cleared for Takeoff

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    Head down to the local university grad department with $20 and announce you need help setting up a D-link.
     
  14. RJM62

    RJM62 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If what you're trying to do is use the AP to bring Internet past the range of the main router:

    1. Put the router in Client Mode (practically all of them support it) and join the WAN side to the wireless network in a place with decent signal.

    2. Configure WiFi on the the AP using a different SSID and channel.

    3. Connect the AP to any LAN port on the router.

    Personally, I'd just run Ethernet and be done with it forever. (Barring mouse problems, at least.)

    Done.
     
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  15. weirdjim

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    I rest my case.

    Jim
     
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  16. weirdjim

    weirdjim En-Route

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    I rest my case twice. If this keeps up I'm gonna open that case and have a few beers out of it.

    Jim
     
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  17. weirdjim

    weirdjim En-Route

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    If I wanted to do that, I'd walk into my own EE classroom at the local college and ask any of my students to set it up for me. I don't WANT anybody else to set it up, I want to know how to do it myself and why this or that is wrong.
     
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  18. IK04

    IK04 Cleared for Takeoff

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    I fussed with a Netgear (or maybe D-Link?) router for two days trying to set up my DHCP block with no success until I called their tech support. They were stumped, too, but I was given a link to a non-English web site for a cloned product and found out there were hard coded reserved IP addresses that could not be used...

    I was forced to rename all my fixed IP addresses in that submask, but it worked...
     
  19. RJM62

    RJM62 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Where are you getting lost?

    You basically have to set up one device to get a signal from the WiFI and feed it to the other, which will rebroadcast it on another channel with another name. It doesn't really matter very much which device does which job. You could also use the AP to grab the WiFi signal and pass it into the router's WAN port, if that's what you want to do; but that would be daisy-chaining routers, which is frowned upon for performance reasons.

    If you don't mind that, then just join the AP to the current WiFi network and run a cable between the AP and the WAN port of the router. Give it a different SSID (wireless name) and a different channel from the upstream router to avoid interference. Your throughput may suffer a bit due to the daisy-changed routers, but such is life.

    The best way to do it performance-wise would be to run Ethernet from a LAN port on the router all the way to the part of the house to which you want to provide the second WiFi coverage, then configure the AP to a different SSID and different channel from the router and plug the cable into it. That means you still only have one device doing the routing. The AP is just bridging from wired to WiFi. If running the cable is at all possible, that's what I would do.

    I understand that being an EE doesn't mean that you know anything about computer networking. Hell, I know people with degrees in IT who don't know anything about computer networking. But your obvious frustration doesn't make it equally obvious where you're getting lost. What exactly is it that you don't understand?

    Rich
     
  20. Fiveslide

    Fiveslide Line Up and Wait

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    [​IMG]
     
  21. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    I have a difficult house for wifi. Bought an Orbi system. One base unit with two satellites. Works very well.
     
  22. Spring Ford

    Spring Ford Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If you want to discuss networking you FIRST need a network diagram labeled with equipment names/models, IP addresses and port numbers etc. Screeds of text are no substitute. Give each device a nickname that describes its main NETWORK function so that it is easier to refer to. Router 1, Switch 1.

    A home "router" is really three seperate NETWORKING functions. Draw three boxes and put that inside a big box.

    Its a Router, a Switch and a WiFi Access Point.

    Also label the relevant functions of each device e.g.
    DHCP enabled
    DHCP disabled
    NAT


    Then it is easy to talk about.

    That is the way a professional would do it and there is a reason for that.

    OK, OK, OK. You've twisted my arm.

    Here is how I would do it - if I get your intentions correctly. Sorry if my artistry leaves a lot to be desired:)

    There may be other options for the wireless link other than Client-->AP, but often these are manufacturer specific and won't work across brands. Many home routers don't have client mode. RJM62 recommended using a WAN port. I think my one is simpler but I may have missed a good reason for that suggestion. Now at least there is something to talk around.

    Sorry I used Paint - it's all I have right now.

    EDIT - Changed the diagram slightly to clarify that it is the DHCP server that is to be disabled.
    EDIT2 - Changed the device names from R1, AP1 ... to R1, AP2 ... to make them easier to refer to.
    EDIT3 - Reduced white space in image to make it easier to read text in browser. It's just about legible in an F11 full screen now.
     

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    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
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  23. RJM62

    RJM62 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Actually, using the second router's WAN port was not my preferred solution. Putting the router into client mode and using the radio for WAN, then connecting the AP to a LAN port, was my second-preferred solution. My favoritest solution would be to ditch the second router altogether and run a cable. I like cables. I like cabling. But sometimes it's impractical, which is the only time I personally do things wirelessly.

    As for diagrams... Nah. Not for something like this. For a commercial job where someone may have to follow me, sure. But not for a DIY home installation. But on the other hand, you do have a point in that it could be helpful for Jim, whose experience and training didn't cover these things. If someone has to follow him or if he has to T/S something in the future, the diagram couldn't hurt.

    I don't think I've installed a router in 20 years that didn't have client mode buried in there somewhere. I guess it depends on the brands.

    Rich
     
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  24. Hang 4

    Hang 4 Line Up and Wait

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    Or just get google mesh. It basically just works.

    I went through many routers that required a computer science degree to make work. Got three google mesh units about two years ago, took five minutes to get running and haven’t touched them since
     
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  25. Spring Ford

    Spring Ford Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Firstly I am NOT suggesting that any responder should have created a diagram. This is a forum, anyone is free to post what they wish or not to post at all.

    I don't need a diagram to implement this either and for sure wouldn't draw one if I was designing and implementing it myself for me. I used a network like that years ago at home and no diagram ever existed.

    I of course do use a diagram, but I can hold the picture all in my head because I have spent 15 years at work doing nothing but networking. On the other hand to talk about it with someone who is struggling to understand what to do, I think it is essential.

    For example I seem to have misunderstood what you meant about some WAN port:) Of course this is a forum and no contributor is required to conform to any particular behaviour.

    My initial idea was to suggest to the Original Poster that they do a diagram since it's their problem - but I decided to do it myself. It took about an hour since I am rusty, had nothing to copy, and used a terrible tool.

    Not a wasted effort at this end since I am just about to try to teach someone how to use drawing tools and it has clarified my ideas on how to do it.

    Sorry to have gone on for so long ... ... ...
     
  26. Spring Ford

    Spring Ford Pre-takeoff checklist

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    What's happened, people agree on the internet:) Well nearly.
     
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  27. RJM62

    RJM62 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Meh. There are many ways to do the same thing. What I really should have asked was what is the model number and firmware version of the router. That would have enabled step-by-step instructions.

    Rich
     
  28. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    Having spent 30 min on the phone this AM with a chipper offshore call center employee, I’d rather take the written manual and slog through it.....
     
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  29. weirdjim

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    RRR OM, ES TNS FER YER QSL. YR SIG HR 469 ES TNX FER RPT. SK WX6RST


    Did you understand that? I learned to translate that when i was 12. I did NOT learn to translate WAN, AP, SSID, Ethernet, LAN, at that point in time (because it was 60 years ago).

    Do you all understand that using shorthand that YOU consider child's play is totally confusing to those of us who are not cognoscenti to the lingo?

    I have a CAT-5 cable full of data in my left hand. I am in my engineering lab about 100 meters away from the house. I need to connect that CAT 5 cable to a box that broadcasts that data all over my lab. I need something in the house that hears that data and rebroadcasts it throughout the house.

    Nobody is doing terabyte downloads, nor gigabyte files. We are simply trying to run a small home business between my lab and the house. That OUGHT to be child's play for this connected universe, and yet the high priests of the connected world have conspired to make it damned difficult to do.

    Did I explain the problem succinctly?
    ROG OM?

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
  30. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    You need the proper equipment to do this job, perhaps this.
    https://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-Wi-F...ocphy=9008465&hvtargid=pla-335129037544&psc=1
     
  31. IK04

    IK04 Cleared for Takeoff

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    GL

    73,

    K4IVE
     
  32. RJM62

    RJM62 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Assuming some sort of Internet connection that doesn't require a login (almost all cable and most satellite providers), to get the router to provide Internet to your lab requires that you connect the modem to the WAN port on the router using an Ethernet cable.

    The WAN port on the router will be marked "WAN" or "Internet." It probably will be a different color from the other ports. Most (but not all) Netgear routers use black for the LAN ports and yellow for the WAN port. But there are exceptions.

    Whatever the color scheme, connect an Ethernet cable from the modem to the router's WAN port. Don't plug the router into the AC power just yet. Instead, unplug the modem from the AC power and let it sit for a while. 15 or 20 seconds should be enough. Then plug it back in and wait for two or three minutes.

    Next, plug the router into the AC power and wait for two or three minutes.

    Turn the router upside-down and look for a label. Most Netgear routers have them. Among the information on that label should be a line labeled "WiFi Network Name (SSID)" or something quite similar. That is the router's default WiFi Network Name (SSID). Write it down. Another line should be labeled "Network Key (Password)" or something quite similar. Write that down, too.

    If you like, you can also use your phone to take a picture of the label.

    Each device you wish to connect to the WiFi network will have its own interface design for connecting to a WiFi network. Here are some possibilities:

    A little antenna symbol is a common icon.

    Radio waves radiating from the corner of a square box is another.

    A circle or segment of a circle with an arrow or a triangle pointing outward from the center of the circle is yet another. ​

    To connect a computer to the WiFi network, move the mouse around near where the clock is and look for some icon that appears to have something to do with radio waves. When you find one, hold the mouse over it and see if anything happens. If not, then click it and see if something happens.

    At some point, you should get a dialogue box asking you if you want to connect to a wireless network. There may be several choices. Choose the one that you wrote down from the label on the bottom of the router. It should be one of the choices and the strongest one.

    Next, when it asks for the key or password, enter the one you wrote down from the label on the bottom of the router.

    If there is a box for "Connect Automatically," "Store this Connection," "Remember this Network," or some other language suggesting that the device is willing to remember it for future use, check that box.

    Then click "Apply," "Connect," or whatever other button suggests that you are saying "Yes, I would like to connect to this network."

    You will have to do some semblance of the above for every device you want to connect to the WiFi network.

    As for extending the Lab's connection to your house, that's probably not possible using the equipment you have. 100 meters from a consumer-grade router is theoretically possible outdoors, but unlikely to provide a stable, usable signal in the real world. It can be done using outdoor equipment of various sorts, but it's unlikely that what you have will work for what you want to do.

    Rich
     
  33. DaleB

    DaleB En-Route

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    But you can't expect to just wade into a very, very technical area in which you have little to no expertise, and expect to be able to do advanced level stuff with no understanding of what you're doing.

    Imagine someone else complained that they had just bought an HF ham rig and needed to regularly talk to relatives in Australia using a digital mode to transfer data, but the manual isn't clear on how to make that work. Would you think that would be a job for someone who was not familiar with radios, propagation, antennas or related technology? Of course not. They'd need to do some real learning to make that happen.

    The equipment you have is consumer grade gear, intended for consumer use in the most common applications. It may be (or may not, but probably is) capable of more advanced applications, but the documentation is simply not there for most of it. If you're going to figure it out yourself, it's going to take time and effort. Lots of it. Alternatively, you can buy and use a consumer grade device like the "wifi range extender" mentioned in one of the recent posts. They're designed to be pretty easy to set up.
     
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  34. RJM62

    RJM62 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The problem with that is that a range extender needs a usable signal to start with. Usually that's not a problem because they're used indoors, so you just plug the thing in somewhere that has a less-than-perfect, but stable and usable signal. Where's he going to do that in the 100 meters of outdoors between the two buildings?

    There are ways to do this. It probably could be done with two AP's and a pair of high-gain directional antennas looking at each other, not to mention the plethora of professional-grade hardware made for this sort of application. But I doubt it will be possible to get a reliable and usable connection with a single 100mW consumer-grade AP or range extender.

    Rich
     
  35. DaleB

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    I guess I missed the range in that post. That's a pretty good little haul... yes, you'll need some fairly high gain antennas or a cable. The "Easy Way" here is a cable, terrain permitting. Anything else gets just enough more complicated than reading the two-page, sixteen-language "manual" most consumer networking gear comes with.
     
  36. RJM62

    RJM62 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    He'd even be pushing the standards envelope with cable. EIA/TIA 568 limits the maximum length of cat5 and cat6 cable to 100 meters, which includes 5-meter patch cords at each end; so actually it's 90 meters for the permanent run. Also, I think the National Electrical Code started incorporating the EIA/TIA standards for data cables into the NEC around 2017, in which case exceeding the length could present a permitting / inspection issue.

    Of course, there's always fiber. The cost actually wouldn't be that much higher because he wouldn't need the conduit. But if poor Jim is frustrated now, I don't think he wants to go messing with fiber.

    But then again, it's really no different to speak of from the configuration side, so maybe not so much.

    Rich
     
  37. DaleB

    DaleB En-Route

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    There’s standards, and then there’s what actually works. Ask me about my RS-232 interface some time.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  38. mryan75

    mryan75 Cleared for Takeoff

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    First tip is don’t mix companies. A router and a range extender from different companies is going to be an adventure at best to get working. I tried D-Link about 20 years ago and it was just complicated garbage. Brought it back, bought Netgear equipment, and have never looked back. Netgear is as close to plug and play as you can get.
     
  39. jsstevens

    jsstevens Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Early in my career we ran some RS-232 cables that were nearly 100 ft. long. I asked a much more experience engineer about it and he said "This is what engineers do: meet or exceed the specifications."
     
  40. DaleB

    DaleB En-Route

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    Yeah. Back in the late 80s I helped sort out some issues at Fruehauf, where my Dad was the VP of product engineering. They had a big (like 8' or larger) CNC plasma cutter that went through inch thick aluminum like it was butter. The PC driving it (an IBM 5150) was in another building, with a couple hundred feet of RS232 serial between them. They had to run a pretty low baud rate, as I recall, like 2400-ish.