Sub lost contact over Titanic

So that sub conformed with all the regulations the US has on submersible construction? Oh, it didn't? I wonder how they got around that? Oh yeah, by doing it the way they did.
Yeah, they should have based themselves out of Seattle where they built the sub and crossed the canal for every dive so they could stay properly regulated. I honestly don’t think avoiding regulation was the driving factor. I think saving every penny was the driving factor.
 
Educating the public...might as well go snipe hunting.


What do you have against snipe hunting? I rather enjoy snipe hunting. Here's a brace I took with with my 1924 LC Smith:

863260f8c13593eef898e643c5eb799bd6e4a2f3_r.jpg



And here are a couple more I got with my 1930s vintage Stevens 330 (branded as a "Worthington Special"):

40d163873730fa854b332856d65c5ca123f5e1f8_r.jpg


(I have a fondness for old SxS shotguns.)

Here's @2-Bit Speed (high school years) with his very first snipe and his Christmas present, a 12ga pump:

f0636cbe8e6c3e1536cefab8844e4822ad4b4dc5_r.jpg


Maybe you should give snipe hunting a try!
 
I am inclined to think it was just a byproduct of choosing Newfoundland. And I'm sure Canada must have its own regs.

Time will tell.

Beyond basing the launch out of Canada, he did apparently flaunt his refusal to adhere to the 1993 "GUIDANCE FOR CERTIFICATION OF PASSENGER CARRYING SUBMERSIBLES", which was enacted after concerns regarding using these vessels for tourism,

Allegedly refused to to pay for a certified viewport that was rated to the depths they were diving,

In the documents, Mr. Lochridge reported learning that the viewport that lets passengers see outside the craft was only certified to work in depths of up to 1,300 meters.
That is far less than would be necessary for trips to the Titanic, which is nearly 4,000 meters below the ocean’s surface.
“The paying passengers would not be aware, and would not be informed, of this experimental design,” lawyers for Mr. Lochridge wrote in a court filing.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/20/us/oceangate-titanic-missing-submersible.html

Rejected numerous approaches from his peer group to follow certification requirements,

Of roughly 10 submersibles that exist in the world and are capable of diving to the depth of the Titanic - nearly 4,000 meters below the surface - only OceanGate's Titan was uncertified, said Will Kohnen, chairman of peer-review group Marine Technology Society's (MTS) committee on manned submersibles.
https://www.reuters.com/world/after-titanic-sub-disaster-industry-faces-scrutiny-2023-06-23/

And based the Titanic tour operating company out of the Bahamas, for "reasons".

Rush, the head of the company, told AP in 2021 that it was an American company. But he added that "OceanGate Expeditions", which printed the dives on the "Titanic", was based in the Bahamas.
He adds that the Bahamas subsidiary is likely to circumvent US law, but often courts have torn "corporate sails" and OceanGate could be found liable in the case.
https://www.koha.net/en/boat/382750...ourist-expeditions-in-the-depths-of-the-seas/
 
I think saving every penny was the driving factor.

And the arrogance of thinking he was smarter than everyone else and that physics wouldn't bite him because of that. I think it's important to keep that in mind. It's not like he was the owner of an emerald mine and every penny saved went to his bottom line while every safety burden that resulted from those pennies was carried by his workers. This guy put his own safety on the line, so there has to be an element of arrogance/confidence beyond just being cheap.
 
Oh, I see. They sunk the Titanic in the north Atlantic so they wouldn't have to comply with USCG regs. Right.........

If we're tossing around conspiracy theories, this one needs at least one time machine to be viable. What date do you propose for its first use? o_O
 
And the arrogance of thinking he was smarter than everyone else and that physics wouldn't bite him because of that. I think it's important to keep that in mind. It's not like he was the owner of an emerald mine and every penny saved went to his bottom line while every safety burden that resulted from those pennies was carried by his workers. This guy put his own safety on the line, so there has to be an element of arrogance/confidence beyond just being cheap.
It's a same sort of factor that enters in homebuilt airplane accidents: The belief that if it worked *once*, it would work OK forever. Too many homebuilders think that the first flight is where all the danger is; in reality, while the first 10 hours does have the highest rate of accidents, there's a secondary peak at 40-60 hours as mechanical issues eventually develop.

From what I can gather, the Titan sub had made at least ten previous dives to that depth. Be curious as to what sort of "pre-dive" inspections were done. May have just been casting a casual eyeball over it.

Ron Wanttaja
 
As I understand, the only thing you can’t sign away is gross negligence. But IANAL. -Skip
Probably depends on what venue the lawsuits end up in. Might be Canada; might even be the Bahamas. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the estates of the passengers will probably try to get it filed in the US, but even there, it might depend on what state it ended up in.

Ron Wanttaja
 
No combustion... just squashed like a grape. Sub imploded in a few milliseconds. They never knew what hit them.
Of course there was combustion. Boyle's Law still works, even if the relevant time period is one millisecond (which is pretty close for the instantaneous collapse of a cylinder having a radius of 27 inches at a depth of 3,800 meters). The atmosphere in the pressure chamber was compressed (decreased volume), and the resulting air temperature increase was extreme (no need to debate "surface of the sun" temps or slightly less). The time period supports an adiabatic reaction, where no heat transfer to the surrounding sea water occurred due to the extremely short time period involved. The subsequent wall of 33°F water quenched all. But yeah, they didn't have time to process what was happening (had happened) to them.
 
Probably depends on what venue the lawsuits end up in. Might be Canada; might even be the Bahamas. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the estates of the passengers will probably try to get it filed in the US, but even there, it might depend on what state it ended up in.

Ron Wanttaja

These civil procedure questions have long confounded 1Ls in law school. There is the question of whether any particular court has 1) subject matter jurisdiction, 2) personal jurisdiction over the defendant, 3) whether the forum is appropriate even if it has jurisdiction, and 4) which law applies to each part of the case. Even if the action is able to be filed in a particular U.S. state or federal court, it's not certain what law would apply. That court would apply its own choice of law analysis to determine what law to apply.
 
And the arrogance of thinking he was smarter than everyone else and that physics wouldn't bite him because of that.
Honestly this seems like the biggest driving factor. Everyone looks to reduce costs and reduce regulatory burden, but that alone is not the crux. Top leadership sets the ethos for the organization. The most damning to me are the established industry experts (such as Cameron, Ballard, basically you name it) having prior issued concerns about this vessel. I appreciate the innovative angle, but there's widely available public research out there documenting why carbon fiber is not an appropriate pressure hull.. there's even university YouTube out there from 10 years ago documenting how they fracture and implode..

Honestly, I am seeing some parallels here to Raptor. Peter survived his foray into a corn field, but looking at the mindset of both individuals there's a similar level of hazardous attitude at play. "I'm right because I'm an innovator, if you disagree, you're part of the problem. How many planes [submarines] have you built??"

Similar fallacies exist, and it can be hard to argue. "How many planes have you built?" and "how many subs did you build that went to the Titanic" are an easy way to silence someone who points out concerns. But in both cases we have reams of established data, literature, and a community of very smart engineers, when you don't leverage what's available to you, either through ignorance, or will, that to me is an egregious oversight.

I don't blame the folks who paid to go see the Titanic. I guarantee if tickets were cheaper more'd have gone. It's not a 'rich' issue. It's arrogant and careless engineering that killed people and dishonors a gravesite.
 
I've told my wife that one of my goals in life is that the word "idiot" not appear on my headstone, in my obit, or in any discussion of my death.
 
I've told my wife that one of my goals in life is that the word "idiot" not appear on my headstone, in my obit, or in any discussion of my death.

I always liked Bruce Chien's advice:
"Before you do anything marginally stupid, think about how the NTSB report will read".
 
What do you have against snipe hunting? I rather enjoy snipe hunting. Here's a brace I took with with my 1924 LC Smith:

863260f8c13593eef898e643c5eb799bd6e4a2f3_r.jpg



And here are a couple more I got with my 1930s vintage Stevens 330 (branded as a "Worthington Special"):

40d163873730fa854b332856d65c5ca123f5e1f8_r.jpg


(I have a fondness for old SxS shotguns.)

Here's @2-Bit Speed (high school years) with his very first snipe and his Christmas present, a 12ga pump:

f0636cbe8e6c3e1536cefab8844e4822ad4b4dc5_r.jpg


Maybe you should give snipe hunting a try!
Temporary thread drift: https://fieldsports-journal.com/fieldsports/shoot/a-brace-of-snipe-and-a-pint-of-port

How do snipe really taste?
 
Duh, like chicken…
I was thinking more like quail, but then I’ve never had a snipe so I can’t judge. Have you tried them? Big favorite of Winston Churchill.
 

I find some amusement in your juxtaposition of "good reporting" and "The Daily Mail." o_O

While being careful here in a public forum, "The Daily Mail" is usually pretty good at scraping content from other sources together into a hot mishmash without good journalistic due care. I read their content with a grain of salt, and then find the original sources for anything I find interesting.

Here is the "reporter" for that article. Just looking over the variety of topics and length of articles, she somehow seems to generate up to 5 or 6 prolific pieces per day across an amazing variety of global topics.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/profile-482/melissa-koenig.html
 
The titanium bits faired better than expected however the composite, not so much.
You'll find the failure paths of metal vs composite are two very different things. To include with aircraft. Metal crumples and in general holds itself together as it fails where composite shatters into dust and fibers. I would never want to be in an accident where the only structure is composite.
 
I would never want to be in an accident where the only structure is composite.

That’s what he said.

Alonso-crash.jpg

Well, guess what, the wheels are off but the tub is entirely intact.

Seems to be - Alonso Australia 2016 crash

"Fernando Alonso escaped the Australian Grand Prix unhurt after a crash"

"Alonso, the Spanish driver, miraculously escaped the dramatic crash and climbed out of his McLaren car"

"rest couple of days for a full recovery"[1]

Carbon fibre has apparently completely transformed the safety of at least some racing cars.

upload_2023-6-29_6-2-55.png

Now I suspect that there are other factors, F1 cars now have to be strong enough to withstand 5G cornering and braking and I guess this helps. There are also crash tested and the driver restraints are better than ever.

Maybe just a poor selection of case study, but I am not convinced composite materials are necessarily dangerous in a crash.

A composite-can seems to me to be likely to withstand a crash better than a spam-can. We will soon enough find out as composites are now finding their way into GA.

I can hardly believe that I have quoted the Daily Fail, but there you are, I guess it suited my purpose.

F1 deaths[2]:-

upload_2023-6-29_6-9-52.png

Maclaren introduced Carbon Fibre into F1 in 1981.

[1] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...rific-200mph-Australian-Grand-Prix-crash.html

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_fatalities
 

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Too bad those poor sub guys didn’t have a carbon fiber safety shell to protect them.
 
That’s what he said.

Alonso-crash.jpg
I happened to be watching the 2020 Bahrain GP and caught this accident:

The car punched through the steel barrier. Then front half, with the tub, went through, the back half broke away. The halo was pretty new at the time and probably saved the driver.



IMG_5793.jpeg
 
Maybe just a poor selection of case study, but I am not convinced composite materials are necessarily dangerous in a crash.
I don’t know zip about F1 construction, however, I have repaired and site-recovered a number of composite and hybrid-composite aircraft over the years. But if you prefer to use a purpose built, crash tested F1 as an example of composite structures, in general, have at it. I’ll stick to my initial conclusion when it comes to accidents and composites based on my observations and experiences.
We will soon enough find out as composites are now finding their way into GA.
No need to wait. Composites have been used in in all facets of GA for quite some time. There’s plenty of data on how well composites perform… and don’t perform. But what’s interesting is the last two clean-sheet designed GA aircraft, Cessna Sky Courier and Beechcraft Denali, use primary metal structures vs composite structures. Why, if composites are “superior”? Regardless, I also think if the CAPS hadn’t been a certification requirement for the Cirrus, there would have been a much more “public” display of why composites, in general, are not equal to an F1 cockpit.
 
CF is undeniably a great building material. Their strength though is documented in tensile loads, less so compression. Steve Fosset was planning to go to Challenger Deep in a carbon fiber sub, the difference was that was built to be a one-time use submarine. Do-able, but must be executed right

With each dive fibers crack. Titan did make it down a couple times before it failed..
 
I don’t know zip about F1 construction, however, I have repaired and site-recovered a number of composite and hybrid-composite aircraft over the years. But if you prefer to use a purpose built, crash tested F1 as an example of composite structures, in general, have at it. I’ll stick to my initial conclusion when it comes to accidents and composites based on my observations and experiences.

No need to wait. Composites have been used in in all facets of GA for quite some time. There’s plenty of data on how well composites perform… and don’t perform. But what’s interesting is the last two clean-sheet designed GA aircraft, Cessna Sky Courier and Beechcraft Denali, use primary metal structures vs composite structures. Why, if composites are “superior”? Regardless, I also think if the CAPS hadn’t been a certification requirement for the Cirrus, there would have been a much more “public” display of why composites, in general, are not equal to an F1 cockpit.

Sailplanes have been using composites for about 60+ years now. I fly a mostly fiberglass and carbon fiber sailplane. I also worked extensively in the design and construction of the Thunder Mustang kits (Mostly Carbon Fiber)

As mentioned the problem with Carbon fiber is it's failure mode and variability in construction. What this means is to properly design a Carbon fiber structure to account for fatigue and construction variabilities it weighs about the same as a metal structure. It will be more rigid, which often can be a down side. I.e. in the sailplanes it makes for a much less comfortable ride in turbulence. In the past 30 years of sailplane design a lot of emphasis has been on building true composite structures, as is combinations of Fiberglass, Carbon Fiber, and Kevlar.

Crash Worthiness of composite structures has also been a big focus area in glider construction in the past 20+ years. Typically Kevlar is the go to material for building crash worthy structures because it doesn't shatter like Carbon Fiber. So most modern glider cockpit areas have a significant amount of Kevlar structures and crush zones in the cockpit areas.

Brian
LS-6b
 
I find some amusement in your juxtaposition of "good reporting" and "The Daily Mail." o_O

I find that the Daily Mail has better reporting than the vast majority of the main-stream press. They have way better information on information on stories in my own hometown than the local media outlets, which should be downright embarrassing to the local media.
 
I don’t know zip about F1 construction, however, I have repaired and site-recovered a number of composite and hybrid-composite aircraft over the years. But if you prefer to use a purpose built, crash tested F1 as an example of composite structures, in general, have at it. I’ll stick to my initial conclusion when it comes to accidents and composites based on my observations and experiences.

No need to wait. Composites have been used in in all facets of GA for quite some time. There’s plenty of data on how well composites perform… and don’t perform. But what’s interesting is the last two clean-sheet designed GA aircraft, Cessna Sky Courier and Beechcraft Denali, use primary metal structures vs composite structures. Why, if composites are “superior”? Regardless, I also think if the CAPS hadn’t been a certification requirement for the Cirrus, there would have been a much more “public” display of why composites, in general, are not equal to an F1 cockpit.

I would probably chalk that up to cost and their unwillingness to shift to a completely different production method from what the rest of their fleets/workforce are familiar with. If the weight of the aircraft weren't going to be significantly less (to the point that they could use it as a major selling point) I doubt that it would make financial sense to use CF/composites when they aren't tooled up to do so. Cirrus didn't have a century of production history already using metals like Beech/Cessna.
 
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