Sub lost contact over Titanic

If true, it seems consistent with his overall approach.
 
Jim K said:
EXACTLY the same attitude though
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Yep. All joking aside, it’s stunning to consider the similarities of this project and the Raptor with regard to safety, rules, and the head cheese’s’ willingness to jettison anyone arguing against their ill-conceived plans.

Unfortunately, this clown took it a step further by selling seats.
 
Credit where credit is due.

The Raptor did not fly high enough to risk collision with the general flying public.

Titan went deeper than almost every other passenger carrying submersible in the world, several times, over several years. That did demonstrate that it initially had adequate strength to go there.

It did not have the strength to survive multiple cycles. That is his downfall.

That brings to mind the flight of the Smithsonian's first generation De Haviland, at the opening of the Baltimore Washington airport. I asked the pilot why he never climbed higher than about 5 feet, landed, and taxied back.

His answer was classic Darwin. " I will not take that plane higher than I can survive it failing structurally. This is all original parts, every wire and fitting is of questionable integrity. I could not bank safely, so landed straight ahead, and taxied back"

That plane had flown much higher by the inventor, in order to sell them, but that was then. All the parts have been aging and stresses slowly advancing tiny cracks. The museum had also forbid higher, so if a failure occurred, the plane would be repairable, and return to display.

Stockton Rush had none of those limitations for himself, or his pet project, or his customers.
 
hindsight2020 said:
It's not just the obvious poor strength relative to competitor materials in compression, composites also have really dodgy fatigue curve characteristics. Treasonous would be my word choice.

Spent one too many years during my stay at Purdue working on these things, my master's concentration was on fatigue and crack propagation in aircraft structures. When it comes to predictive fatigue and propagation behavior, composite is the typical american wife hitting her 40s. She's gonna wreck your life, you just can't tell when.... and frankly neither does she. :D
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You should call Airbus and Boeing folks with your findings … countless lives are at stake here.
 
hindsight2020 said:
It's not just the obvious poor strength relative to competitor materials in compression, composites also have really dodgy fatigue curve characteristics. Treasonous would be my word choice.

Spent one too many years during my stay at Purdue working on these things, my master's concentration was on fatigue and crack propagation in aircraft structures. When it comes to predictive fatigue and propagation behavior, composite is the typical american wife hitting her 40s. She's gonna wreck your life, you just can't tell when.... and frankly neither does she. :D
Click to expand...

not all composites are created equal, right? Kind of like different metals have different fatigue/failure behavior, right? (I'm not saying they are the same...)
 
“The implosion results in instantaneous temperatures approaching that of the sun’s surface.”
Journalist hyperbole, or based on fact?
 
Bob Noel said:
not all composites are created equal, right? Kind of like different metals have different fatigue/failure behavior, right? (I'm not saying they are the same...)
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Sure, some are more like a typical American daughter in her teens...or a European midwife thinking of retirement. And maybe it's they're not really treasonous, just a little grumpy about the bad potato crop last year.

Nauga,
like a metaphor
 
nauga said:
Sure, some are more like a typical American daughter in her teens...or a European midwife thinking of retirement. And maybe it's they're not really treasonous, just a little grumpy about the bad potato crop last year.

Nauga,
like a metaphor
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I recognize imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but we're serious academics here. Please remember to give credit when quoting others methodology. :D
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
“The implosion results in instantaneous temperatures approaching that of the sun’s surface.”
Journalist hyperbole, or based on fact?
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Maybe a misapplication of science and facts?

There’s lots of data on temperature of collapsing cavitation bubbles and the incredible temperatures that occur when water slams back on itself after a vacuum bubble collapses. And yes, those can be hotter than the surface of the sun which is about 6000 degrees Kelvin. Whether this sub implosion actually acts like a cavitation bubble is a big leap though. Intuitively, I doubt it. But there are smarter people than me who would know better.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8960979/#:~:text=Suslick et al.,to be about 5,200 K.

Cavitation bubble temps from the above paper:

Experimental Technique Cavitation Bubble Temperature, K

Molecular emissions observed in multibubble sonoluminescence (20 kHz) ∼2,000–4,300

Comparative rate thermometry (20 kHz) ∼5,200

Radical quantification – ESR (20 kHz) 1000–4600 K

Product quantification – Methyl radical recombination method (20 kHz–1 MHz) ∼2,000–∼7,000

Molecular emissions observed in single bubble sonoluminescence 15,000–30,000

Molecular emissions in ionic liquids to determine vibrational and rotational temperatures 4,000–6,000

Molecular emissions observed from symmetrically and asymmetrically collapsing bubbles (nanodroplet injection model) 4,000–9,500​
 
Albany Tom said:
The diagram in the still of that video is apparently of a cross section of the joint between a machined titanium ring at each end of the main body of the sub, which was wound carbon fiber tube. From the video, the kind of hemispherical ends then bolted to the titanium ring. So the main body was basically just a simple carbon fiber tube.

I've worked with carbon fiber on a very small scale before, and it adds great strength in tension. Depending on the fiber orientation, the strength calculations are pretty simple. In my simple engineering background, I never ran into suggestions of using carbon fiber or other reinforced composite in compression. I can see the carbon fiber adding strength to the tube for lifting and supporting the sub, but fail to see how it makes it any stronger than the binder in compression at depth. Am I missing something?

The other thing pointed out was the joint. Again, my simple background, I can't see the dimensions of the ring AND the tube changing at depth, and I don't think they'd be the same. The stress/strain curves of metals and composites are not similar in my experience. So that glue or epoxy or whatever would seem more like a gasket than an adhesive. Juan pointed that out in the video as well.

I guess I'm restating the obvious, seems like a questionable design at best.
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I viewed the video he used for his comments before the sub was found crushed. It was originally distributed by OceansGate. I immediately recognized the different coefficients of contraction between carbon fiber and titanium, along with the likely inelasticity of what I assume was an epoxy compound used to join the two, would almost certainly result in an eventual failure. This would obviously be exacerbated by cyclic fatique.

With the pressures at 12,500' exceeding 5,500 PSI, the total load on the exterior of the vehicle probably approached 150 millions pounds.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
“The implosion results in instantaneous temperatures approaching that of the sun’s surface.”
Journalist hyperbole, or based on fact?
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No real idea, however I notice that the gas inside would be compressed to 1/360th of its original volume. This is like a diesel engine with a compression ration of 360:1. Sounds quite toasty.
 
To bring this around to (somewhat) aviation related...

Let's say the families sue the soon-to-be-defunct company for negligence/whatever. The company says "But they signed waivers that 'listed death at least three times in the first page' (as I have seen mentioned from several sources)". The court says "Those things are worthless, there should be an expected level of safety for every endeavor regardless of the waivers signed." Could that potentially have a cascading impact on things like Young Eagles where people sign waivers before they ride in these scary 'experimental' aircraft? I'm sure some reporter somewhere, Googling for a new angle to this situation, will soon make a connection between "experimental submarine" to "experimental aircraft" - "HOLY COW! They have a whole organization devoted to experimental airplanes... That they build in their garage... From parts sourced from a hardware store! And they're flying over our children's schools every day!!! OH THE HUMANITY! IT MUST BE STOPPED!"
 
CJones said:
I'm sure some reporter somewhere, Googling for a new angle to this situation, will soon make a connection between "experimental submarine" to "experimental aircraft" - "HOLY COW! They have a whole organization devoted to experimental airplanes... That they build in their garage... From parts sourced from a hardware store! And they're flying over our children's schools every day!!! OH THE HUMANITY! IT MUST BE STOPPED!"
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I don't think the sky is falling but the connection has sort of been made already:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/24/americas/father-son-give-up-seats-titan-intl-hnk/index.html
"Jay recalled the CEO flew in on a two-seater experimental plane he built, which deepened his reservations.

'I started to think about it. He’s coming in on a two-seater experimental plane to pitch me to go on a five-seater experimental sub that he has built down to the ocean floor to see the Titanic,' Jay said.

'He has a different risk appetite than I do,” he said. “I’m a pilot. I have my helicopter pilots license. I would not get into an experimental aircraft.'"

Nauga,
and Rex Kramer
 
CJones said:
To bring this around to (somewhat) aviation related...

Let's say the families sue the soon-to-be-defunct company for negligence/whatever. The company says "But they signed waivers that 'listed death at least three times in the first page' (as I have seen mentioned from several sources)". The court says "Those things are worthless, there should be an expected level of safety for every endeavor regardless of the waivers signed." Could that potentially have a cascading impact on things like Young Eagles where people sign waivers before they ride in these scary 'experimental' aircraft? I'm sure some reporter somewhere, Googling for a new angle to this situation, will soon make a connection between "experimental submarine" to "experimental aircraft" - "HOLY COW! They have a whole organization devoted to experimental airplanes... That they build in their garage... From parts sourced from a hardware store! And they're flying over our children's schools every day!!! OH THE HUMANITY! IT MUST BE STOPPED!"
Click to expand...
I would expect different judicial approach to signing waivers for a sightseeing flight around Grand Canyon vs an extremely hazardous trip to the bottom of the ocean in an experimental craft …
 
nauga said:
I don't think the sky is falling but the connection has sort of been made already:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/24/americas/father-son-give-up-seats-titan-intl-hnk/index.html
"Jay recalled the CEO flew in on a two-seater experimental plane he built, which deepened his reservations.

'I started to think about it. He’s coming in on a two-seater experimental plane to pitch me to go on a five-seater experimental sub that he has built down to the ocean floor to see the Titanic,' Jay said.

'He has a different risk appetite than I do,” he said. “I’m a pilot. I have my helicopter pilots license. I would not get into an experimental aircraft.'"

Nauga,
and Rex Kramer
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He called it a license. His opinion is invalid.
 
CJones said:
Googling for a new angle to this situation, will soon make a connection between "experimental submarine" to "experimental aircraft" - "HOLY COW! They have a whole organization devoted to experimental airplanes... That they build in their garage... From parts sourced from a hardware store! And they're flying over our children's schools every day!!! OH THE HUMANITY! IT MUST BE STOPPED!"
Click to expand...

From what I have been able to tell from my high level view (meaning I read it here on POA), the difference is the "experimental" aircraft still go though a certification process of demonstrating at least some level of safety(Inspection by a 3rd party, i.e. the FAA). For the "experimental" submersible, they specifically organized the company to avoid having to demonstrate that they met certification and regulatory standards.

Brian
 
brcase said:
From what I have been able to tell from my high level view (meaning I read it here on POA), the difference is the "experimental" aircraft still go though a certification process of demonstrating at least some level of safety(Inspection by a 3rd party, i.e. the FAA). For the "experimental" submersible, they specifically organized the company to avoid having to demonstrate that they met certification and regulatory standards.

Brian
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I think the challenge is/will be educating Joe Q. Public on the difference between "inspected and regulated" experimental vs. "hold my beer and watch this" experimental.
 
this guy just published a video, he was on it days before the accident

In the video you see Rush and the team. They didn't dive due to weather, but he was in the sub for a 30 foot test dive

 
CJones said:
I think the challenge is/will be educating Joe Q. Public on the difference between "inspected and regulated" experimental vs. "hold my beer and watch this" experimental.
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I think the attitude of John Q., by and large, amounts to, "I should be allowed to do whatever I want with no interference, but everyone else should be tightly regulated by the government so I'm protected from them."
 
CJones said:
I think the challenge is/will be educating Joe Q. Public on the difference between "inspected and regulated" experimental vs. "hold my beer and watch this" experimental.
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Also, international waters in order to skirt regs versus USA and following regs
 
Half Fast said:
I'm confused.

Are you suggesting the Titanic wreck should be moved into US territorial waters so the US can regulate diving to a British shipwreck?

?????
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I think he was getting at the fact the US has no jurisdiction over that location, but flying in US airspace they do.
 
EdFred said:
I think he was getting at the fact the US has no jurisdiction over that location, but flying in US airspace they do.
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Yeah, I got that, but it isn't like Ocean Gate put the Titanic in international waters so they could skirt regulations.
 
Half Fast said:
Yeah, I got that, but it isn't like Ocean Gate put the Titanic in international waters so they could skirt regulations.
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No, but since the vessel was never in US waters, they didn't have to do anything by regulation. If the sub launched out of some US port, it would be.
 
Half Fast said:
Yeah, I got that, but it isn't like Ocean Gate put the Titanic in international waters so they could skirt regulations.
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They based the operation out of a Canadian port to avoid USCG purportedly. However, I would presume the Canadian Coast Guard would have had similar regulation of such an operation as the USCG. Maybe not.
 
EdFred said:
No, but since the vessel was never in US waters, they didn't have to do anything by regulation. If the sub launched out of some US port, it would be.
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True. But so what? The US has no jurisdiction over any other country's vessels. That's not really "skirting" the rules; it's just how things work. If someone robs a Canadian bank they aren't skirting US criminal law.
 
robin ardoin said:
They based the operation out of a Canadian port to avoid USCG purportedly.
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Avoiding USCG oversight may have been the goal, or they may have just viewed it as a nice bonus. I think the fact that Titanic lies 375 miles from St John's, Newfoundland but 900 miles from Cape Cod may have been a bigger factor in choosing their base of operations.
 
GaryM said:
Avoiding USCG oversight may have been the goal, or they may have just viewed it as a nice bonus. I think the fact that Titanic lies 375 miles from St John's, Newfoundland but 900 miles from Cape Cod may have been a bigger factor in choosing their base of operations.
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I am inclined to think it was just a byproduct of choosing Newfoundland. And I'm sure Canada must have its own regs.
 
They could have picked anything/anywhere for their supposed experiments.

Maybe it was unsubstantiated rumors but I thought he intentionally avoided oversight so he didn’t have the expense of design testing materials testing etc
 
Half Fast said:
True. But so what? The US has no jurisdiction over any other country's vessels. That's not really "skirting" the rules; it's just how things work. If someone robs a Canadian bank they aren't skirting US criminal law.
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I wasn't aware that Everett, Washington was outside the US.
 
Half Fast said:
I wasn't aware that Everett, WA had Canadian banks.
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Wasn't aware of any bank robberies that oceangate committed in Canada, they however are an American company, that built a submersible and skirted US laws, by not actually operating it out of a US port.
 
EdFred said:
...skirted US laws, by not actually operating it out of a US port.
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Baloney.

Would you have had them operate out of a Pacific port to dive on a shipwreck in the north Atlantic?

I think their actions were idiotic, but I don't see how they were "skirting" anything.
 
Half Fast said:
Baloney.

Would you have had them operate out of a Pacific port to dive on a shipwreck in the north Atlantic?

I think their actions were idiotic, but I don't see how they were "skirting" anything.
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So that sub conformed with all the regulations the US has on submersible construction? Oh, it didn't? I wonder how they got around that? Oh yeah, by doing it the way they did.
 
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