Hello all. I am a whopping 9hrs into training and loving it. I fly in SE Virginia and my CFI is constantly cancelling due to winds. Most make sense even to my untrained weather sense. He is fantastic, I am learning a ton. I am just curious if he is being overly cautious. I dont know enough to second guess for sure, but I do wonder at what point do I learn wind and weather situations to expand acceptable flight conditions? Today, the Winds were 7kn , gusts to 11.and forecast winds were dropping with no gusting listed. Visibility and ceiling were excellent. My question, is this too cautious or should I "suck it up, butter cup?" Can't wait to get different thoughts from fellow students and other CFI's. Thank you.
Student Pilot weather minimums, not solo
Assuming this was a dual lesson, you should have flown in 7G11. That’s actually ideal conditions for a low time student to begin learning the effects of wind on their airplane.
If it was solo, than perhaps your CFI gave you a lower limitation that he or she felt comfortable with.
If it was solo, than perhaps your CFI gave you a lower limitation that he or she felt comfortable with.
455 Bravo Uniform
Final Approach
If it’s the wind that’s the excuse, ask him what his minimums for a lesson for you are now. That way you have a number/target to be able to know when or if a lesson will be canceled. If he gives you a number, then you know he was not full of bs.
We flew as long as the crosswind component didn’t exceed POH, unless my instructor thought the conditions would deteriorate.
We flew as long as the crosswind component didn’t exceed POH, unless my instructor thought the conditions would deteriorate.
James331
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James331
I never had paint by numbers limits, not for dual not for solo, I used common sense, and had my students do the same.
7G11 I'd fly all day with a student and I'd also be OK with solo ops.
The only issues I could see here
You skills (or if you got overwhelmed)
His skills and experience.
Local terrain, is there some major mechanical chop or something in the area that coincides with those conditions or wind direction
Or maybe just a excuse for not wanting to fly for some other reason
7G11 I'd fly all day with a student and I'd also be OK with solo ops.
The only issues I could see here
You skills (or if you got overwhelmed)
His skills and experience.
Local terrain, is there some major mechanical chop or something in the area that coincides with those conditions or wind direction
Or maybe just a excuse for not wanting to fly for some other reason
When learning to fly in my neighborhood, The Great Plains, one would never get any flight time if they waited for winds less than 7G11. Especially between the months of March and February. My instructor also used the limits in the POH as the upper boundary, including wind gusts. As I gained experience he upped lower boundary to the POH number allowing the gusts to go above that depending on the runway alignment with the winds.
Also, the crosswind component = sin(Delta Angle*) * wind speed. *Delta Angle is the angle between runway alignment and wind direction. You can quickly estimate the crosswind as percent of reported wind speed and the angle delta.
Here are the numbers I use:
0 deg = No crosswind
15 deg ~ 25% of the wind speed
30 deg ~ 50% of the wind speed
45 deg ~ 75% of the wind speed
60 deg ~ 90% of the wind speed (rounded up for 86%)
75 deg ~ 100% of the wind speed (rounded up from 96%)
Also, the crosswind component = sin(Delta Angle*) * wind speed. *Delta Angle is the angle between runway alignment and wind direction. You can quickly estimate the crosswind as percent of reported wind speed and the angle delta.
Here are the numbers I use:
0 deg = No crosswind
15 deg ~ 25% of the wind speed
30 deg ~ 50% of the wind speed
45 deg ~ 75% of the wind speed
60 deg ~ 90% of the wind speed (rounded up for 86%)
75 deg ~ 100% of the wind speed (rounded up from 96%)
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Your POH had wind limits?
455 Bravo Uniform
Final Approach
I think he meant max crosswind component.
I will correct myself, I looked at my screenshot and realized it was 12g16 at our takeoff time, the 7g11 was forecasted later. A front was on its way out, so take off time may have been a tad much. As I said, not second guessing him, just want a fair idea from more sources to what works and what doesn't. Thanks!!!
Wasn't referring to soloing, just dual. But per below, I was misreading conditions at takeoff time. I can support his caution for sure.
Ok misread it.
But still even the 12 gusting 16 is nothing to worry about on a dual flight.
Was the plan for maneuvers, touch and go? If I am taking a student to the practice area I will go gusting up to 30. Touch and go I will keep it a bit more conservative due to x winds of sudents level. I have had students up in gusting 25 depending how much of an angle the winds were at for touch and go.
Sorry for the confusion. The POH states, "Maximum Demonstrated Crosswind Velocity." Though it is not a limit, colloquially it was used to set the crosswind guidelines that were later expanded as experience was gained.
Sinistar
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Brad
@Nfredible, a couple questions:
What kind of plane are you flying?
Are you just in the pattern working on landings?
What kind of plane are you flying?
Are you just in the pattern working on landings?
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
Guys, I don’t know how you can answer the OP without knowing what he’s flying. The LSA I trained in has a max xwind of 15 knots, so if G16 was a xwind we wouldn’t fly. Also the local field conditions where I fly have a way of channeling wind, so runway gusts, especially at the south end, can be much worse than the report.
OP, for now trust your CFI’s judgment but also ask questions so you’ll develop your own judgment skills.
OP, for now trust your CFI’s judgment but also ask questions so you’ll develop your own judgment skills.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Since we aren’t sure what was going on in the first 9 hours, we won’t be able to tell if those winds are okay for you or not. Certainly should have been ok for dual but we can’t mind-read from here so...
Also is the airplane schedule or the instructor’s schedule or yours really tight? When the airplane schedule isn’t tight anytime winds are forecast to die off like that, would it work out to just postpone an hour? I know at busy rental places that’s not always an option but later in life, that’s a real world pilot decision to remain within your personal limits or limits of the equipment. Good training to postpone and watch weather sometimes!
Maybe, juuuuuuust maybe... your instructor wanted YOU to notice the winds and text and say, “can we postpone until XX:XX - winds look high until then”...
At 9 hours I doubt it, but when we’re doing it right, we’re always shooting for making YOU into PIC, not us.
Anyway. Just for reference, there’s places where if you didn’t fly in winds you wouldn’t fly much at all. An old friend used to teach in Cheyenne, WY. He jokes, “I’ve soloed students in 30 knot winds straight down the runway because it’s all they ever flew in. They’d probably crash if the wind was calm!”
There’s another possibility too, you know. The instructor may be looking for a few nice days back to back to get you soloed before going on to other things. Personally I would say “go start the other things” but maybe they’re hung up on wanting to get you soloed.
That’s all up to you and your performance, though. They’re going to want to see solid airmanship before hopping out.
Also just out of curiosity ... Part 91 or Part 141? Following a club or mandatory syllabus? Just curious.
Also is the airplane schedule or the instructor’s schedule or yours really tight? When the airplane schedule isn’t tight anytime winds are forecast to die off like that, would it work out to just postpone an hour? I know at busy rental places that’s not always an option but later in life, that’s a real world pilot decision to remain within your personal limits or limits of the equipment. Good training to postpone and watch weather sometimes!
Maybe, juuuuuuust maybe... your instructor wanted YOU to notice the winds and text and say, “can we postpone until XX:XX - winds look high until then”...
At 9 hours I doubt it, but when we’re doing it right, we’re always shooting for making YOU into PIC, not us. Anyway. Just for reference, there’s places where if you didn’t fly in winds you wouldn’t fly much at all. An old friend used to teach in Cheyenne, WY. He jokes, “I’ve soloed students in 30 knot winds straight down the runway because it’s all they ever flew in. They’d probably crash if the wind was calm!”
There’s another possibility too, you know. The instructor may be looking for a few nice days back to back to get you soloed before going on to other things. Personally I would say “go start the other things” but maybe they’re hung up on wanting to get you soloed.
That’s all up to you and your performance, though. They’re going to want to see solid airmanship before hopping out.
Also just out of curiosity ... Part 91 or Part 141? Following a club or mandatory syllabus? Just curious.
Vance Breese
Cleared for Takeoff
You are leaving out an important part of the wind and that is direction.
If the lesson is pattern work then the cross wind component is an important part of the decision.
Some airports or areas are more challenging in wind than others.
The weather is what it is at one point on the airport. Nearby may be much stronger.
In my opinion the effect of the wind goes up by the square of the increase in wind speed.
It depends on the lesson and the student.
Some students stop learning in turbulent conditions and it is a waste of time and money until they get more comfortable with controlling the aircraft. Someone who is tense and wound up like a clock spring doesn’t learn much.
I have a low time primary student and we are wasting time at 11kts. He stabs at the controls and each landing is a test of my resolve to not take the controls.
For some others wind is just a learning opportunity and I recently did first landings in 290 degrees 18kts gusting to 26kts with a primary student, same aircraft. In his next lesson we flew in 300 at 4kts he did very well.
I fly out of an airport (SMX) that is just off the wind path up the valley so each of the winds socks may be blowing in a different direction showing a different wind speed.
We often adjust the lesson plan to work around the weather.
If the lesson is pattern work then the cross wind component is an important part of the decision.
Some airports or areas are more challenging in wind than others.
The weather is what it is at one point on the airport. Nearby may be much stronger.
In my opinion the effect of the wind goes up by the square of the increase in wind speed.
It depends on the lesson and the student.
Some students stop learning in turbulent conditions and it is a waste of time and money until they get more comfortable with controlling the aircraft. Someone who is tense and wound up like a clock spring doesn’t learn much.
I have a low time primary student and we are wasting time at 11kts. He stabs at the controls and each landing is a test of my resolve to not take the controls.
For some others wind is just a learning opportunity and I recently did first landings in 290 degrees 18kts gusting to 26kts with a primary student, same aircraft. In his next lesson we flew in 300 at 4kts he did very well.
I fly out of an airport (SMX) that is just off the wind path up the valley so each of the winds socks may be blowing in a different direction showing a different wind speed.
We often adjust the lesson plan to work around the weather.
I learned in Colorado. 20G33 was good student solo weather, but we never flew unless the visibility was unlimited.
In Virginia, students fly in 5 miles in haze all summer long, but won't take a 10 knot wind straight down the runway.
In Virginia, students fly in 5 miles in haze all summer long, but won't take a 10 knot wind straight down the runway.
denverpilot
Tied Down
I don't fly at all when the wind is calm. That's right, I'm a bad mofo.
Chuck Norris creates his own crosswind with roundhouse kicks with the door open, just so he can keep landings interesting.
dmspilot
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I live in the same area. I flew with a couple students today, it was absolutely not a day worth cancelling anyone for. Your CFI is being ridiculous and is perhaps looking for excuses to not go to work. If you PM me I might be able to supply some recommendations.