RJM62
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Geek on the Hill
Hmmm.
While I am not what you would call a huge fan of labor unions, I do not universally reject them either, and the airline pilot is an example of someone for whom, as the industry is structured, union representation is pretty darned important. It'll be interesting to see how this one plays out.
I lean a bit farther toward unions on the continuum: I support private-sector unions in general, but I don't think that they're always right. I also think union membership should always be voluntary, but that employees who choose not to join should also forfeit any benefits, representational or otherwise, of union membership. (Under present law, workers who refuse to join the union in states where that's allowed still receive almost all union benefits.)
This is fairly open and shut case in favor of the pilots. Clearly ABX management has not staffed the company properly. Now due to lack of planning on managements part they expect the line pilot to make up for it. If an additional assignment is asked of any pilot and that pilot does not feel fit for duty then he or she is absolutely within their rights to declare themselves fatigued or otherwise unfit for such additional assignment. The pilots don't even really need to strike in this case but rather just start refusing additional segments/assignments.
Looks like ABX needs to beat the bushes and hire some pilots or else they're gonna have a lot of egg on their face.
The Pilot Shortage coming home to roost. FedEx and UPS are hiring at much higher pay, and better Bennies.This is fairly open and shut case in favor of the pilots. Clearly ABX management has not staffed the company properly. Now due to lack of planning on managements part they expect the line pilot to make up for it. If an additional assignment is asked of any pilot and that pilot does not feel fit for duty then he or she is absolutely within their rights to declare themselves fatigued or otherwise unfit for such additional assignment. The pilots don't even really need to strike in this case but rather just start refusing additional segments/assignments.
Looks like ABX needs to beat the bushes and hire some pilots or else they're gonna have a lot of egg on their face.
I'm hoping the Atlas pilots are smarter than that...Looks like Atlas is filling some of the flying, with at least one plane today.
I'm hoping the Atlas pilots are smarter than that...
I hope so. I have an email into our MEC about this and haven't heard back yet.Supposedly Kalitta had a 747 fly, but it was flown by some management pilots brought in via Learjet. Hopefully it was a similar situation with Atlas. As I understand it they're holding strong.
Unions exist only to engage in extortion. They extort their members, they extort management, and they foster discord, because that's what keeps the union bosses from having to get real jobs.
Per flightaware, the Atlas flight operated ONT-DFW-ABE-ONT todayI hope so. I have an email into our MEC about this and haven't heard back yet.
Unions exist only to engage in extortion. They extort their members, they extort management, and they foster discord, because that's what keeps the union bosses from having to get real jobs.
Yessir, but it's an informed opinion. And this story is a great example. The dispute has been ongoing for two years. Why would the union choose now to strike?
There's a symbiotic relationship between airlines and unions. The airlines didn't become the way they are in a vacuum.Well, I can only speak for ALPA as that's the only union I have had a part in. Like I've said on here before - there have been plenty of times when I would rather have a sister in a whorehouse than a brother in ALPA. But.....they are a necessary evil by virtue of the way airlines are set up and run.
Largely in the case of pilots what the union really does is negotiate an employment agreement. Just like CEO's and high level management have employment agreements. I will GAURANTEE you that I can find more egregious BS in a CEO contract then you could EVER show me in ANY pilot contract. Hint - think TYCO.
Unions exist only to engage in extortion. They extort their members, they extort management, and they foster discord, because that's what keeps the union bosses from having to get real jobs.
Unions exist only to engage in extortion. They extort their members, they extort management, and they foster discord, because that's what keeps the union bosses from having to get real jobs.
There's a symbiotic relationship between airlines and unions. The airlines didn't become the way they are in a vacuum.
The unions I don't think should exist are government employee unions.
Airline unions would be much better if seniority was universal instead of existing within the confines of each company.
That's fine. If they do not feel fit to fly any additional segments they're duty bound to call in fatigued.Well, that was quick... Judge ordered a TRO. I feel sorry for those guys...
http://www.wlwt.com/article/airline-wants-court-order-to-end-cargo-pilot-strike/8357393
I agree. It sounds like what the company is pulling would be very fatiguing. Using "emergency" scheduling to invalidate their required days off and vacations. Sounds very fatiguing. But, don't forget, cargo is cut-out of 117...That's fine. If they do not feel fit to fly any additional segments they're duty bound to call in fatigued.
The second part while sounding quite nice is just not possible. Let's say a 15 year 737 pilot makes a gauranteed hourly rate of X and a 5 year 737 pilot makes Y, with Y being a lessor amount. If you had to hire a bunch of 737 pilots which would you be more biased to hire ?
Yessir, but it's an informed opinion. And this story is a great example. The dispute has been ongoing for two years. Why would the union choose now to strike?
Because this is the time they can exert the greatest pressure?.
They are entitled to do that.That's fine. If they do not feel fit to fly any additional segments they're duty bound to call in fatigued.
I agree with you first statement 100% ! Governments don't have the ability to make a profit. I would be very much ok to see Mr. Trump and congress finding a way to do away with government employee unions.
The second part while sounding quite nice is just not possible. Let's say a 15 year 737 pilot makes a gauranteed hourly rate of X and a 5 year 737 pilot makes Y, with Y being a lessor amount. If you had to hire a bunch of 737 pilots which would you be more biased to hire ?
How do you propose to force airlines--even those that don't yet exist--to give up their right to choose who they hire?If everyone was in the same union with universal seniority the company would have to hire in seniority order.
I'm not saying they should.How do you propose to force airlines--even those that don't yet exist--to give up their right to choose who they hire?
Maybe things would be better off if they did?How do you propose to force airlines--even those that don't yet exist--to give up their right to choose who they hire?
If everyone was in the same union with universal seniority the company would have to hire in seniority order.
How do you propose to force airlines--even those that don't yet exist--to give up their right to choose who they hire?
Who is "they"?Maybe things would be better off if they did?
True. They could also make it a more merit based system and not simply seniority, if they'd operate across airlines.
But there is the rub.
Many trade unions DO manage to operate across business boundaries, though, with varying degrees of success. It's always surprised me that never took off in the airline biz. Especially with the whole "bankruptcy car wash" business model of change the name and start over being fairly prevalent in American business and only slightly less so in the airline biz.*
There's another piece to this, however. I first noticed it in a thread here this year and never thought about it much before then. In most trade union shops, the entire concept of "apprenticeship" is very strong and heavily cultural. Think "apprentice electrician" vs "journeyman" vs "master". In the airline biz, that's down to seniority and which seat someone is sitting in, but both pilots have to meet the same standard.
Some line pilots you talk to are more than happy to teach in the cockpit and sim sessions as senior captains. Not the baselines, but the nuanced stuff. Things you learned over long years doing it.
Others flat out complain if the company parks someone new to the stuff in their other seat.
Aviation unions, at least to an outsider's perspective, don't seem to have anywhere near the "apprenticeship culture" that trade unions have, nor any clout to say things like "you need a master rated person flying that flight"... and commensurate pay, etc. The two go hand in hand even in licensure in the trades.
Yes, there's IOE and check airmen and that. Not saying there isn't. Just saying that feel isn't nearly as strong from aviation organizations as it is in say, an electrician's union. Or telecom. Or pipefitting. Etc.
It's odd. But understandable. Your logbook fills in for some of that in aviation. But when you hire a Union Master Electrician, you know an awful lot about what you're going to get and how long they've been doing it under the watchful eye of a previous Master Electrician.
You hire an ATP, that's not quite the same feeling. If you catch my drift. And the airline still has to mold one of those to their system. Hiring an ATP with previous airline experience? Better. You know they know the airline training and evaluation systems and need re-training to meet the ops of the current employer.
Just thoughts. No dog in the fight on this one here. If I don't screw up my re-ride I'm going to be a tiny cog on that very big wheel of training and teaching folks -- and have probably a bigger effect than even I realize yet on the pilots I teach -- but they won't be anywhere near ready for an airline without the massive training systems the airlines stack up behind those ratings.
How the unions got so shut out from that overall process, is kinda where the thoughts above lead. They could have been an integral part of the required mentorship inside the airlines, like they are in the trades.
Still could be, but that's a long uphill battle and maybe not worth the losses involved to get there at this point.
*Airline in this case should really be air transport and include cargo and self-loading cargo alike, I just used "airline" generically.
Yeah so about the rla.... my opinion is either rla is repealed to force companies and labor to properly interact or if the gov will not repeal they should not allow unions for airlinesWho is "they"?
Even if the unions were to pursue such a plan, they have no power to force all airlines to agree to it. Under our laws (RLA), all airlines would have to agree to participate and there's little, if anything, in it for them. In fact, it would increase their costs and decrease their control over whom they hire.
Per flightaware, the Atlas flight operated ONT-DFW-ABE-ONT today
Yeah so about the rla.... my opinion is either rla is repealed to force companies and labor to properly interact or if the gov will not repeal they should not allow unions for airlines