Straight in at uncontrolled field

FORANE

FORANE

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FORANE
What are the rules for straight in at uncontrolled fields? Always have to yield to traffic in a pattern? Minimum distance from field before starting a straight in?

Just communicate intentions and all is good, or do you consider straight in approaches poor form?
 
Just fly a straight in, standard right of way to lower traffic etc.

I do it all the time at my home drome, no biggie
 
Personally, I won't do a straight-in unless the pattern is empty.
 
I would do a straight in if the airport does not have extensive training going on. If you where coming in IFR you are probably on a straight in when cleared.
 
Straight in is just not a good idea, IMHO. I've done it at night, but rarely during the day. Too many NORDOs out there.
 
Coming from the south to an airport with rwy 01 favored by the winds I'm flying a straight in approach. Nothing wrong with it, radio Nazi claiming it wasn't allowed (nothing in the A/FD to the contrary) notwithstanding.
 
Unless its stated in the A/FD as far as I know its allowed. I was always taught its a bad habit to get into though. Besides entering and flying the pattern gets me a little more time in the air.....:D
 
Kind of hard to do practice approaches with your safety pilot without doing straight-ins. :dunno:

Make your calls, be very vigilant and be prepared to break it off and enter the pattern.
 
FORANE said:
Meaning if I call a 10 mile final I have right of way???
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If right-of-way is an issue, yes. Right-of-way does not mean "next aircraft to land". Right-of-way is an issue if two aircraft would otherwise occupy the same point in space, or nearly so.
 
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roncachamp said:
Traffic on final has the right-of-way.
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If you're on a 10 mile final at +5k AGL and Im turning a tight base 1/2 mile out at 700AGL, final traffic can f@ck off.


Ether way, it's easy, straight in, base entry, full pattern, just use common sense!
 
ChitDisturber said:
If you're on a 10 mile final at +5k AGL and Im turning a tight base 1/2 mile out at 700AGL, final traffic can f@ck off.


Ether way, it's easy, straight in, base entry, full pattern, just use common sense!
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Your message suggests you lack common sense as well as an understanding of right-of-way and applicable regulations.
 
I do it frequently, but not recklessly. I'm usually descending from altitude and talking to approach until I get pretty close in. Low ceilings usually means little or no VFR traffic, but VFR conditions means I have to merge in reasonably. I have flown over and done a full pattern when it was busy, but usually, I can call ahead and coordinate with others. If one talks and is courteous, most other pilots do the same. I've done 360s to make room for someone already in the pattern.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I do it frequently, but not recklessly. I'm usually descending from altitude and talking to approach until I get pretty close in. Low ceilings usually means little or no VFR traffic, but VFR conditions means I have to merge in reasonably. I have flown over and done a full pattern when it was busy, but usually, I can call ahead and coordinate with others. If one talks and is courteous, most other pilots do the same. I've done 360s to make room for someone already in the pattern.

Best,

Dave
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This is what I typically do, and I fly straight in very often.
Just wondering about what regs and such have to say about it though. Think I remember hearing something about guys getting cited over straight in if under 5 mile final; is that right?
 
Be careful - watch out for the passive aggressives out there - I landed behind a pattern nazi who extended their rollout all the way to the end of the runway then stopped then turned around and then verrryyyy sllllooooowly taxied off in retaliation for my IFR straight in - almost made me go around but I just held it off with power a little bit til he cleared.

There is definitely Karma though - as I've told the story before there were two inspectors there from the FSDO doing a Part 135 on the FBO/Charter operator who heard him bitching at me on the radio - and who saw him land and asked him why he needed to taxi to the end then turn around . . . . they asked me if it caused me to go around or do any unusual maneuvers - I gave him a break. They already were all over him -
 
roncachamp said:
Your message suggests you lack common sense as well as an understanding of right-of-way and applicable regulations.
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Ok, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

If you don't mind me asking, how many hours do you have and what license (e.g. LSA, PPL, CPL, ATP)?
 
Only other topic that is more covered or debated on POA is the requirement to do a HILPT. :D
 
FORANE said:
This is what I typically do, and I fly straight in very often.
Just wondering about what regs and such have to say about it though. Think I remember hearing something about guys getting cited over straight in if under 5 mile final; is that right?
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§91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.
 
ChitDisturber said:
Ok, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

If you don't mind me asking, how many hours do you have and what license (e.g. LSA, PPL, CPL, ATP)?
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I don't mind you asking. If you can provide an adequate explanation as to how that information affects FAR 91.113(g) I'll give you the answer.
 
Common sense must rear its head here. The uncontrolled fields are home to many different aircraft. Mine for instance has a cub with an owner who has no radio and says it's not needed. Also at this field it a bonanza owner who is not really adept at a normal pattern and likes to fly an airliner approach from waaaay out. These two can arrive at any time and if you are on base, look to the right and suddenly see the bonanza coming towards you, it's unnerving.( He did not announce where he was. )See and be seen is important in the pattern. Just as important is clearly spoken announcement of where you are in approach to the pattern, while in the pattern and again on final.brief mumbles trying to sound like a bored airline captain ain't gonna cut it. Too many low time pilots around with limited training would dictate that you adhere to the standard pattern. I was taught to always fly a standard pattern , staying as close to the runway as possible in case the engine quit, speak clearly and slowly your intentions INCLUDING the airport NAME each transmission. Many accidents, often fatal , occur in or near the pattern including my airplane which was hit in the pattern by another aircraft. The former owner made it to the ground. The aircraft that hit him crashed killing the owner. Neither had a radio and did not see each other. I think a standard pattern , at the CORRECT altitude,increases the odds that you will land safely.
 
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roncachamp said:
§91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way,
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Im right :D

So.... Hours and rating?

Never mind, didnt notice you had your real name on here, answered my own question

You're a single engine instrument CPL AND a tower controller.

That's kinda cool actually, I noticed you've been a tower guy 3 years longer then you've been a CPL, so I'd wager most of your experience is at a controlled field from the perspective of a controller.

As a working pilot myself, at un-towered airports, it's easier to just let the closer/lower traffic have right of way. If I'm on a 5 mile final and there is a 152 on a tight base I'll slow down and I'll expect the inverse as well.
 
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ChitDisturber said:
Im right :D

So.... Hours and rating?
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ruler_0_10.jpg


This should help.
 
ChitDisturber said:
Im right :D

So.... Hours and rating?
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You're wrong, and short on integrity.


§91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.
 
roncachamp said:
§91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.
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Ahh...injecting a little Red Board attitude...that some reg supercedes common sense. So tell me, what is the definition of "cutting in front of"? There is no such thing as "cutting in front" of when you're several miles out. "Cutting in" implies you force one pilot to modify their operations to avoid conflict. I'd like to know how that's possible when you're several miles out on final, and somebody turns a 1/2 mile base-to-final in front of you.
 
My standard answer to the question is always out of AC90-66A. I do straight-ins but if it disrupts the flow of other arriving and departing aircraft already in the pattern, I don't do it.
 
RoscoeT said:
Ahh...injecting a little Red Board attitude...that some reg supercedes common sense. So tell me, what is the definition of "cutting in front of"? There is no such thing as "cutting in front" of when you're several miles out. "Cutting in" implies you force one pilot to modify their operations to avoid conflict. I'd like to know how that's possible when you're several miles out on final, and somebody turns a 1/2 mile base-to-final in front of you.
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Right-of-way is not an issue in that situation. See message #13.
 
If hours count, 6,600 - of which about 4,500 are dual given.

1) There is no legal requirement to fly a pattern.

2) A pattern is recommended by the FAA in the AIM as a standard procedure.

3) I virtually always overfly my destination, if non-towered. Usually 500' or more above the pattern. Then fly out a bit and descend to enter a close downwind at about 45°.

Why?

a) It lets me look down at the wind direction indicator, which I can make out more clearly from above.

b) It allows me to check for obstructions or wildlife or "x's" on the runway.

c) I find it easier to spot possible NORDO planes from above.

d) I think there's less chance of a midair somewhere on a long final.

I'm not saying anyone must do it or is unsafe coming straight in. But once in a great while I hear of an accident or violation where I'm pretty sure it would not have happened had the pilot flown as I do. So, I'm trading maybe an extra tenth or two in the air for what I perceive as a tiny increase in safety.

Works for me!

Oh, and I honestly cannot remember the last time I got in a pi**ing contest with another pilot over right-of-way. I'm sure it has happened, but it's so rare as to be a non-issue the way I plan my arrivals.
 
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There was an interesting discussion today at the coffee shop. We are now living on a small airport with a grass field. Most of the aircraft don't have radios -- usually no electrical system. The way that they see and avoid is to get everyone lined up in the pattern. Nobody does a straight in unless they are strangers to the field and the courtesy of joining the pattern on the downwind allows everyone to adjust their speed and spacing so that nobody has a problem.

Just saying that there is a chance that your radio announcement of a ten mile or five mile or even one mile final may not be heard. If you join the pattern at midfield, it gives everyone a better chance to see you and it gives you a better chance, too. I was reminded that even though it is legal to declare a straight in final, it might not always be the smart thing to do.
 
FastEddieB said:
If hours count, 6,600 - of which about 4,500 are dual given.

1) There is no legal requirement to fly a pattern.

2) A pattern is recommended by the FAA in the AIM as a standard procedure.

3) I virtually always overfly my destination, if non-towered. Usually 500' or more above the pattern. Then fly out a bit and descend to enter a close downwind at about 45°.

Why?

a) It lets me look down at the wind direction indicator, which I can make out more clearly from above.

b) It allows me to check for obstructions or wildlife or "x's" on the runway.

c) I find it easier to spot possible NORDO planes from above.

d) I think there's less chance of a midair somewhere on a long final.

I'm not saying anyone must do it or is unsafe coming straight in. But once in a great while I hear of an accident or violation where I'm pretty sure it would not have happened had the pilot flown as I do. So, I'm trading maybe an extra tenth or two in the air for what I perceive as a tiny increase in safety.

Works for me!

Oh, and I honestly cannot remember the last time I got in a pi**ing contest with another pilot over right-of-way. I'm sure it has happened, but it's so rare as to be a non-issue the way I plan my arrivals.
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I'd tend to agree and stated like a flight instructor too :yes:
 
RoscoeT said:
Ahh...injecting a little Red Board attitude...that some reg supercedes common sense. So tell me, what is the definition of "cutting in front of"? There is no such thing as "cutting in front" of when you're several miles out. "Cutting in" implies you force one pilot to modify their operations to avoid conflict. I'd like to know how that's possible when you're several miles out on final, and somebody turns a 1/2 mile base-to-final in front of you.
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He said it in one of his first posts:

roncachamp said:
If right-of-way is an issue, yes. Right-of-way does not mean "next aircraft to land. Right-of-way is an issue if two aircraft would otherwise occupy the same point in space, or nearly so.
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The aircraft 'on final' 10 miles out has the right of way over the aircraft that is trying to turn final from a 10 mile out base leg.

There is no right of way issue with the nordo taildragger on a close in base as that plane will have landed and be off the runway by the time the 10 mile final turns into a 2 mile final.

But yes, if there is a plane on a straight in and the actions of the plane in the pattern would force the straight-in plane to change his course or go around, the plane on the straight-in has the right of way and the guy in the pattern has to get out of his way.
 
FORANE said:
What are the rules for straight in at uncontrolled fields?
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Just what it says in 91.113(g):
(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.
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So...
Always have to yield to traffic in a pattern?
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Straight-ins never have to yield to traffic in the pattern unless the other traffic is an emergency aircraft or a privileged category (balloon, glider, airship). See Administrator v. Fekete.

Minimum distance from field before starting a straight in?
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The only area where minimum distance from the field is an issue is when you're turning in from the side opposite the published pattern direction. In that case, 4-5 miles is plenty, and 1-2 miles isn't enough. See Administrator v. Boardman and the cases cited therein for details.

Just communicate intentions and all is good,
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That's the official rule, and technically, communicating your intentions is not required, just courtesy.

or do you consider straight in approaches poor form?
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No, I do not, and I do them quite often.
 
comanchepilot said:
Be careful - watch out for the passive aggressives out there - I landed behind a pattern nazi who extended their rollout all the way to the end of the runway then stopped then turned around and then verrryyyy sllllooooowly taxied off in retaliation for my IFR straight in - almost made me go around but I just held it off with power a little bit til he cleared.
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There is no regulation saying you cannot land behind them as they roll out as long as you do not create a collision hazard.
 
RoscoeT said:
Ahh...injecting a little Red Board attitude...that some reg supercedes common sense. So tell me, what is the definition of "cutting in front of"? There is no such thing as "cutting in front" of when you're several miles out. "Cutting in" implies you force one pilot to modify their operations to avoid conflict. I'd like to know how that's possible when you're several miles out on final, and somebody turns a 1/2 mile base-to-final in front of you.
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Read the Fekete case I cited and I think you'll understand what it means.
 
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