Stopping the bleeding

M

Mikey1719

Filing Flight Plan
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May 23, 2015
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11
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Glendale
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Display name:
mike
I just turned 60 and have decided to postpone or possibly quit any further training. I have been through 4 flight instructors, logged 143 hours and spent close to $30k. My main issue during my 2 1/2 years has been radio work in the LA area. I have been told that it's the busiest in the country, but I will bet New York comes pretty close. My work schedule, my instructors schedule and weather has been a factor in the amount of time it has taken so far. My knowledge exam is due to expire which made me rethink if I wanted to continue at this time. Scored a 90 but not anxious to do that all over again. I'm thinking I will wait till I retire in a couple of years and go to a school instead of a FBO instructor at that time. I will have an open schedule and can focus entirely on getting my check ride endorsement. I am sad and find it difficult to read aviation material and to cancel my subscriptions and insurance. At what time do most decide that enough is enough and realize the dream isn't going to happen?
 
That's a sad story, Mike. If radio work has truly been your nemesis, I can't help but think that the right instructor could have gotten you through it. There is a very good book called "Say Again, Please" and the author is a member here in the forum. The first thing I'd do is study with that. If you're burned out on the reading, try the audio CD course called "Squawk VFR".

Have you been diligent with the homework? And if you logged 143 hours over 2.5 years, you probably had some pretty big gaps in your training. If you can somehow find the time to train at least twice a week, you're more likely to learn and retain the skills and material.
 
It's a tough decision to make and a very personal one. You mention radio work as the primary challenge above. Is that to say that you're otherwise comfortable / able to fly PTS? If so, then you might want to consider completing your checkride out in the boonies where it will be less radio-intensive (e.g., perhaps near Bakersfield).

If radio work is the primary challenge, then you may want to have a look at using a simulated environment (such as x-plane on your computer) and possibly leveraging a service like PilotEdge (they provide live ATC-like simulation, as part of the program - and they focus on southern CA, so perfect for you).

Answering your question - for me, I would throw in the towel at the point that my frustration has peaked and I'm feeling like I've explored all other options and am now wasting my money. It sounds like you might be there.

Other options:
1 - Work with different school / CFI
2 - Find a pilot in your area who'd be willing to fly with you and help you with radios
3 - Use a simulator with a service like Pilot Edge
4 - Read training materials about radio work (VFR Mastery, Say Again)
5 - Fly in less congested ATC areas
6 - Talk to your CFI about your frustration and see if he/she can prescribe a better plan
7 - Spend more time listening to LiveATC (in your car, when you're at the gym, etc.)
8 - Visit a control tower or ARTCC as a guest, and ask questions of the controllers to assuage your own fears / concerns
 
Tell you what, Mike. PM me with your snail mail address and I'll send you a copy of Squawk VFR for free. It bugs me that something as simple as radio work should stand between you and your certificate. - Russ
 
nj-pilot said:
3 - Use a simulator with a service like Pilot Edge
Click to expand...

I've never flown in the LA area but I learned a lot about various corridors and TEC routes and whatnot from Pilot Edge... would suggest giving that a go as well.
 
Sorry to hear that.

Best to learn how to fly outside of busy airspace, get the fundamentals of flying the plane down then start worrying about all the talking. I'd also wager your instructor probably was less than comfortable himself in that airspace. Having flown in the LA and NYC airspace, it's actually very easy if you just view it as a normal conversation and understand where you need to hear "you're cleared" and where you just need simple 2 way communications.

I'd try to find a freelance or high time working or ex working pilot CFI, sadly these guys often don't work at flight schools and are more of a word of mouth thing. If you were closer to SBA I could make a couple recommendations.
 
In Glendale?

Consider flight training at Agua Dulce or even Lancaster. It's a helluva long drive, but it's at least on the same side of LA, and the airspace around KWJF is pretty sleepy even if it is a towered airport. There is one FBO with a small number of training aircraft.

You also might consider going east, even if Burbank is the closest airport. The further from LAX, the better. People seem to like Brackett and Cable even though they are a bit close to Ontario. El Monte may also be an option, closer to you. Just, get over the mountains and out of the basin.

If you're getting swamped now, intensive training can only make it worse. And American Flyers is in Santa Monica, not exactly a sleepy podunk airport.
 
Mikey1719 said:
I just turned 60 and have decided to postpone or possibly quit any further training. I have been through 4 flight instructors, logged 143 hours and spent close to $30k. My main issue during my 2 1/2 years has been radio work in the LA area. I have been told that it's the busiest in the country, but I will bet New York comes pretty close. My work schedule, my instructors schedule and weather has been a factor in the amount of time it has taken so far. My knowledge exam is due to expire which made me rethink if I wanted to continue at this time. Scored a 90 but not anxious to do that all over again. I'm thinking I will wait till I retire in a couple of years and go to a school instead of a FBO instructor at that time. I will have an open schedule and can focus entirely on getting my check ride endorsement. I am sad and find it difficult to read aviation material and to cancel my subscriptions and insurance. At what time do most decide that enough is enough and realize the dream isn't going to happen?
Click to expand...

I suspect a few grand and a trip out to TX, AZ, etc. would get you finished up. Do some training out in the boonies, and then come back to the LA area and work on your instrument rating. I guarantee instrument training will improve your radio skills (for both IFR and VFR) significantly.
 
No experienced pilots out there you can right-seat with? Maybe volunteer as a pup wrangler for Pilot's 'N Paws flights? Be a shame to wash out just because you're uncomfortable on the coms. You'd learn a bunch just riding along.

Not a controller out there that doesn't put pants on one leg at a time...just like you do. Pretty much all they want to know is who you are, where you are, what you want.
 
Bob's book, "Say Again, Please..." helped me with my radio communication issues when I was training.

Helped me know what to say when, what ATC wants to hear from me, and what they will be saying back to me.

GetImage.ashx

Link to the book

There is also a PC based training system that accompanies the book.

And Chip's idea of riding along in the right seat is a great idea. Takes the PIC pressure off of you and let's you learn, and possibly practice, while the other guy does the flying.
 
From the www.ASA2FLY.com site on Bob's book

Talking on an aviation radio and understanding air traffic control instructions can be one of the most intimidating aspects of flight training. In Say Again, Please Bob Gardner explains how the ATC system works and teaches readers what to say, what to expect to hear, and how to interpret and react to clearances and instructions.

This new fifth edition has been updated throughout to reflect current rules and operating procedures. Chapters cover communication etiquette and rules, understanding radio equipment, emergency situations, and both VFR and IFR communications and clearances. Also included: a concise summary of the FAA’s communication facilities and their functions, airspace classifications and definitions, and the FAA’s recommended shorthand for copying clearances.

The communication requirements for entering, departing, and transiting each class of airspace is explained in detail by following along with the author on "simulated" flights. A full-color sectional excerpt is provided for the example flights, so readers can review the map while reading the explanation for flying and talking in each area. Readers will learn everything they need to communicate effectively in VFR, IFR, and emergency conditions. Includes a bound-in full color example map.

Bob Gardner's conversational-yet-concise writing style will help increase your comfort level when using an aircraft radio. Inside are "talk" examples of typical radio transmissions explaining how ATC works, as well as simulated flights that clearly demonstrate correct communication procedures in each class of airspace.

This hands-on book covers the following:
  • The ABCs of communicating
  • Understanding radio equipment
  • Communication etiquette and rules
  • VFR, IFR, and emergency communication procedures
  • Air traffic control facilities and their functions
  • Review of airspace definitions
  • Glossary of pilot/controller communication terms and phrases
Click to expand...
 
That's a lot of money to flush. You've come this far so why quit now. Find a small non towered airport outside of the busy airspace and get your ticket there and bring the other stuff in gradually. Even if it means driving a little further. I trained at a small field an hours drive from my house and yea it was tough and frustrating sometimes but the payoff in the end is huge. How many people do you know that can call themselves pilot. Good luck.

Pat
 
Mike... I started at 56 and train out of a fairly busy class C (KISP) and have flown through Class B (JFK,LGA,EWR). Radio's were one of the things that gave me the most trouble until I realized, by listening to LIVEATC while sitting in my office, that its all pretty much the same stuff.

You shouldn't give up at this point. Look at it as a fun thing to do on the weekend, and don't put so much pressure on yourself. Stick with it, have fun, and eventually you'll get there.

Good luck.
 
Mike I'd highly recommend going out to Santa Paula and looking up Chris Olmstead at Olmstead aviation. He is hands down one of the best instructors I've ever had the pleasure of flying with.

As a bonus Santa Paula is non towered yet close enough to KCMA and KOXR when you need to practice at a towered airport.

Flying in LA isn't that bad, but it can be overwhelming at first. Start small with a good instructor and work your way up from there.
 
write-stuff said:
Tell you what, Mike. PM me with your snail mail address and I'll send you a copy of Squawk VFR for free. It bugs me that something as simple as radio work should stand between you and your certificate. - Russ
Click to expand...

Russ, good on you and everyone else that has offered help. This is what POA is all about!
 
Mike, if that is the way you feel you should quit. There are things in life where you can dabble, pick it up and put it down, kick it around, start then stop then start again and it's fine, you don't really need to commit. Playing pool comes to mind, or fishing.

Aviation on the other hand doesn't work so well if you do that. It's one vocation (and I am speaking about GA, recreational flying here) where you need to commit, unequivocally. You need to work at it and in my opinion, it's best if you can do it regularly. Honestly to me the radios are probably one of the easiest parts, once you figure it out. Half the battle is understanding what to expect, learn the lingo, go through the scenarios and know what to expect, it's mostly pretty standard, especially for VFR. Once you understand the different things, like calling tower, if you understand what they are looking for and how they respond, it becomes much less intimidating.

Someone posted a good book to read, get it and read it. Go and visit a tower and talk to the controllers, you'll see they are great people who want to help.

I suspect that with 143 hours, if you commit and if you are proficient flying, that you can get over the radio thing easily and get your license quickly.

Just get out of your own way.

Oh, and make sure your hearing is good, or figure out what you need to make it good.
 
Oh yea, I trained out of an uncontrolled airport. My instructor(s) never actually *taught* me ATC communucations. Every time we would fly my instructor would take care of communications, even when I would want to go at it, I would always re-ask a minimum of two times exactly what to say. Prior to coming close to my solo, that stopped after I went to my international airport with my handheld and my fore flight. I got some snacks from Starbucks, went to the airport lounge, and followed flights from clearance delivery to the point where they got handed off to another controller out of range. That was a HUGE help and confidence booster for me. I was a flight simulator enthusiast before flight training so it wasn't like I was completely blind about how it should go. I guess I just never paid actuall attention to it in an effort to nail it because I feared I would make mistakes and confuse people for no good reason while making fun of my self in the process and end up on YouTube or something. So I kept pushing it back and my first flight instructor saw nothing wrong with that strangely enough.

How far apart are your lessons? Did you solo? Others might be surprised by my two questions but there was a very real case where a nearby flight school gave "instruction" to a rich woman in their most expensive airplanes with instructors coming and going with her just to build their hours. She spent something like 40K and NEVER soloed. She got ****ed about something eventually and went to my flight school back when I was a student. It was a real eye opener for everyone there and after a free 1hr. flight from my flight school it was made evident that 1. She never actually made an effort to learn. In one ear out the next. 2. She had 0 actuall ground school knowledge in her head. 3. She barely cared about it. Seriously, it was like a book club to her. I didn't poke my nose into it much further than that but my flight school basically had a long talk with her and I never saw her again.
 
Mike, specifically what "radio work" are you having trouble with? I ask this because the guy who hangers next to me claims the same problem and is the only thing holding him back from getting his license. Is it fast talking ATC, comprehension or is it possibly a hearing problem? I've worked with my hanger neighbor by playing the part of ATC (sort of comes natural to me) from clearance, taxi instructions and in the pattern. This can be done in the hangar without the expense of actually flying. Maybe you can find another pilot or even a controller who will work with you in the hangar before you actually go flying.
 
Wow!! So much support in such a short time which really brought a tear to my eye. A little background ... and I have myself to blame for my predicament!

I have attended FAA wings seminars about Radio proficiency and toured my home tower twice. On one occasion three of us got to speak with them for about an hour. I have had college level ground school and passed with flying colors (pardon the pun) and got a 90 on the knowledge. My first instructor yelled at me and fired me when I would not get my radio calls correct (young instructor) but he did endorse my solo, my second instructor tried to pick up where he left off and became a flake missing appointments on a regular basis and gave me my second solo endorsement. I was able to take our local college flight training, and able to jump into the second semester with my existing solo endorsement. Near the end of the semester I soloed short x-country and only needed my long x-country endorsement. What happened next was my own fault ... I got impatient because they kept pushing me out of my time slots due to grounded aircraft or younger students that are pursuing aviation degrees, our local Tule fog that prevented the trip to their only approved airport destination and as a result I quit the semester, hoping to just hop over to my local FBO and get my long x-country endorsement and checkride. Well, my next (and favorite) instructor was patient but has VERY high standards. He expects performance a lot higher than PTS. He held back my next solo endorsement and trained me in strong x-wind conditions (at times 20kts) and wind shear at KWJF. He stated if I could handle these conditions, a calm day would be a piece of cake. He was right, and both of us can attest, that my approaches and landings are great, wind or no wind. Navigation isn't a problem because I got a lot of experience with the college and I took a NAV class at the college that involved making Nav Logs each week and passed that class with an A as well. I have worked "Radio Mastery for VFR Pilots Workbook", read "Say again please", used Comm1 software and listened to Live ATC at the office, so I have tried a lot of the suggestions. My instructor has such high standards, that I felt it would take me another year to master the radio to his expectations at a cost of $200/hr. After talking with him, he couldn't tell me how long it would take, and couldn't suggest a way for me to practice without the heavy cost of flying. He did say that it's one thing to know the radio on the ground and quite another in the air when things start to go wrong. I know what I'm supposed to say, but saying it and knowing my exact position and being recorded by the FAA with everyone in the air listening, causes my to stutter or blank out at times, which basically is a fail for radio comm that day.

I'm sorry for the long winded background, but I wanted to convey that my condition is not from a lack of trying, I just regret being inpatient at the college. After considering all of your suggestions (And thank you very much Bob for your personal advice) I think I need to suck it up, try harder at the radio and if I have to ... ugh! take the knowledge exam again! My instructor said I might get a 95 this time.

I really felt defeated and ready to throw in the towel, and I thank each and every one of you for your support. This is truly the best group of pilots on the planet.

Its funny that Chip suggested "Pilots and Paws" because that has been my dream from the day I started. A life's mission! I really want to donate my time for this cause and thought I had to wait until I received my license. If anyone knows how I can ride along, please forward the information to me. And as Chip says, pick up some radio review as well.
 
Radio is a challenge for some people. I had a student that really thought this would be his hang up, until about lesson 10 or 11. We trained at a class D airport that isn't overly complicated, but it forces students to pay attention and write things down.

A handheld and sitting on the ramp following along helps a long, for radio and situational awareness skills. And its free, after you have a handheld.

Sounds like you need a pilot friend.
 
I hate to make it this simple, but my opinion is that your last and favorite instructor is stringing you along for dollars. You are there...you can hit PTS?... You've soloed?...you've navigated XC?...and you've probably done all that without any runway incursions, pattern/tower violations, or any other communication related problems? What else is there? You will never stop learning after you get your cert, and guess what, you will never be perfect either. Get your ticket and keep learning.
 
Get your ticket and buy a J-3 with no electrical or radio and you don't have to talk to anyone :)
That is the reason I love my Cub so much... Hand prop, no headset, no radio, just fly and have fun. Just look both ways for traffic before you land....
 
Just a thought..... Get your sport pilot, get the license and get out flying.... Then, tackle the radio on your time. You might notice you pick it up faster when you are alone. You've already sunk $30K into it, so another few $K will not hurt. But, you will be flying SOLO.... Build up your confidence and get into the game.... again, just a thought
 
Many wonderful advices here already, but I'm curious--do you often stutter when under pressure in non-flying contexts, eg. when presenting at work or speaking in public? If so, you might want to discuss with your primary care physician about a referral to a speech-language pathologist.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
You've put a lot of money, time and effort into what sounds like will be a hobby. I'm impressed but I'm also saddened.

If its truly a radio issue, it can be overcome... listen to the local approach guys on Live ATC or on a handheld scanner and get used to what they are saying, how they are saying it and who they are saying it to... It will improve with practice. I would also encourage you to resume your training at a time when you can devote a block of time to it, several weeks with minimal other distractions, and preferably in a less busy airspace. There is no requirement for you to take your Checkride in SoCal, and it sounds like you have the means to do some block training elsewhere. You would benefit from finding an older, semi-retired instructor.. Someone who teaches and flies because they love it, not because they are building time for the airlines. Both the scanner and the old-fart instructors were keys to my success, and I flew out of the Houston Terminal Airspace for my training.

On the other hand... if "trouble with the radio" is a code word for being unable to juggle and manage things effectively and multitask safely with the added complexity of ROUTINE airborne communications in ROUTINE aviation taskings.. then perhaps is not the hobby for you. Be honest with yourself. Are there any undisclosed issues with ADHD/ADD that might make functioning under stress unusually problematic? (dont answer that affirmatively and publicly in this forum.. its just a hypothetical...). If you lock up/freeze/vapor lock with routine operations there is no way in hades you can expect to perform safely and effectively in abnormal or emergency operations...

I dont know you outside of what you've said here.. I wish you well and good luck, but the decision on what to do is an educated one for you to make.
 
I am memory challenged because of a head injury.

I made an extra-long kneeboard and wrote down what I would say in one color with blanks for what might be different and in a different color I wrote down what ATC would probably say with blanks for what might be different. I made one for each airport and laminated them so I could use a wet erase to fill in the blanks. I have the airport map on the back.

As I improved with my radio communication I used fewer words on the call sheets but still use them after 1,700 hours as pilot in command. I often fly along the northern edge of the LA Basin and sometimes pierce the bowels of the LA airspace.

Here is a sample of what I use now.
 
ja_user said:
A handheld and sitting on the ramp following along helps a long, for radio and situational awareness skills. And its free, after you have a handheld.



Sounds like you need a pilot friend.
Click to expand...


Or just start listening to liveatc.net
I have trouble as well especially if they are quick and the verbage is unexpected.
 
Mike,
Just how picky is your CFI about calling a day a 'radio fail' day? Can you give an example of an exchange that was deemed unacceptable? Has anyone been busted on a check ride for radio work? If so, what types of things would be a bust? I assume if you are able to get from ATC what they want you to do and communicate your intentions in whatever way you can whether its AIM speak or not, would be acceptable.

for example, ATC: blah blah blah, bugsmasher: say again, ATC: blah blah auctioneer voice, blah, ???, bugsmasher: what is it you want me to do, atc: says something you get, bugsmasher123: wilco

I would suspect that you are better on the radio than a lot of PPC recipients in rural areas who have done the minimum of 3 landings at a towered airport. I suspect another CFI might be in order.
 
I'll also bet you are better at the radio than you think.

I did all my training in Class D, with side trips to non-towered airports. Two things that seemed to help me a lot with the radio: 1) Paint a picture in your head of what's going on. It encourages active listening and situational awareness. Listen to all the calls, figure out who is calling, where they are, where they will be, and why. It will help you figure out where you fit in the big picture. 2) Remember that it's just a conversation with either a controller or other aircraft on freq at an untowered airport. Don't overthink it. Yeah, there are certain phrases to use, but you also get to play the "student pilot" card on the air until they come more easily.

And remember that this is fun!
 
Get thee to a Finish Up course! Get it done. Sharpen up the comms as a PPL.

I was a bit older than you and was stalled in my training - went to a finish up and was done and checked in a few days.

Don't let the time/effort/money spent go to waste.
 
Please don't give up yet! I went through a similar challenge during my PPL. I had trouble with radio comm as well. The book and software really helped me get over this hurdle. Its worth it once you fly as a new pilot and less stressful too than with a CFI.
 
Mike: I'll offer a little different suggestion since mic fright appears to be part of your problem. Get hooked up with one of the local amateur radio clubs, take a quick class and get your Technician ticket. A low cost 2m handheld and get on the local repeaters. It's a different world on the radio, there are lots of people that will just ragchew, and within a couple of days the mic fright will be gone. Once you overcome it a little there, you would be surprised at how quick it goes away in the airplane. A good quality, brand new ICOM, Kenwood or Yaesu ht, the class and the testing fee would set you back under 200$

There are a number of us hams here and who knows, you might really get to enjoy being a ham too...they do mesh pretty good.:thumbsup:
 
Don't feel like you have to talk fast. The ones that talk fast get a "say again" response from ATC. Communicate clearly and concisely. Get FF on every flight, listen to ATC when you're working and when ground gives aircraft taxi instructions and clearances, read it back like you would in the airplane.
 
Craig said:
Mike: I'll offer a little different suggestion since mic fright appears to be part of your problem. Get hooked up with one of the local amateur radio clubs, take a quick class and get your Technician ticket. A low cost 2m handheld and get on the local repeaters. It's a different world on the radio, there are lots of people that will just ragchew, and within a couple of days the mic fright will be gone. Once you overcome it a little there, you would be surprised at how quick it goes away in the airplane. A good quality, brand new ICOM, Kenwood or Yaesu ht, the class and the testing fee would set you back under 200$

There are a number of us hams here and who knows, you might really get to enjoy being a ham too...they do mesh pretty good.:thumbsup:
Click to expand...
I'm also wondering if this might help. Most students have a certain amount of mic fright, especially if they have no prior experience talking on a radio, but they get over it, at least to a degree where they can function without freezing up. Some take a long time to be comfortable with it. I had one student who was great from day one. When I complimented him on it, he said that talking on the radio was part of his job, as he worked as a dispatcher in a com center.
 
I always was worried about talking on the radio. I listened to live ATC a lot reviewed some of the videos over at EAA. Biggest thing that helped me was when I realized that I could just talk "normal". There are a few phrases that you have to know, but other than that just talk to them as if you were sitting across from them and talking about something other than flying.
 
Stories like this really pi$$ me off. Flying lessons are not designed to make you perfect but to make you safe and meet the practical test standards.

I suspect you've long been there and you're your instructor's cash cow. Fire him and get one that will finish you up in a weekend. All you need is the sign off and a bit of an ego boost.

You will continue learning after you get your license (including radio calls). But first get that ticket. And then go fly with other pilots, and instead of paying the guy in the right seat you'll be splitting costs. I'm in San Diego and would be happy to meet up with you and go fly some day.
 
sddiver said:
Stories like this really pi$$ me off. Flying lessons are not designed to make you perfect but to make you safe and meet the practical test standards.

I suspect you've long been there and you're your instructor's cash cow. Fire him and get one that will finish you up in a weekend. All you need is the sign off and a bit of an ego boost.

You will continue learning after you get your license (including radio calls). But first get that ticket. And then go fly with other pilots, and instead of paying the guy in the right seat you'll be splitting costs. I'm in San Diego and would be happy to meet up with you and go fly some day.
Click to expand...

I see no evidence whatsoever this is at play.

Some people really do have trouble with the radio.

If there really is doubt about ethics, a flight with another CFI will set it straight right away.

What I'd suggest doing is flying along with someone right seat on a short VFR flight, and handling all the radio calls and NOTHING else. The left seat can jump in if safety or a bust is at issue.

I'd volunteer if the OP were closer. I operate out of San Jose Reid if he happens to be north at some point.
 
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