Still in shock -- lost a wonderful lady yesterday

BillTIZ said:
Another BS Flag Wave.

I sign off 14 yr olds for supervised solo.
Yes it's a glider, no power, but they have to demonstrate skill, decision making to stay within final glide of the airport, maturity in how they handle themsleves around the airport, and they do not have an engine to worry about. It leaves when the glider pilot pulls the release.
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I HOPE you don't approve them for Touch & Goes! :nono::yikes:
 
I trim for the flare. I don't trim the flare, but I most definitely trim for it. There is a reason that 182s get firewalls bent, and it's not because of trimming nose up......... If I do have to go-around it takes a little muscle but if I push down get 3rd flaps up, gear up 2nd flaps up... baboom, done. I don't really want to bend my firewall, so I'll probably keep doing it.. There is no point in trying to muscle the thing into the flare at all.

It's the go-around that's the problem.. So much going on in a tiny amount of space. They almost have to be muscle memory.
 
dell30rb said:
All SEL (with a few exotic exceptions) will yaw left upon sudden application of power at low airspeed.

When you hit the throttle for the takeoff roll, what are you doing with your feet? Assuming no wind, you're pressing the right rudder pedal to keep the plane from going left and off the r wy
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This is so to a degree, but I have never flown a plane yet where there is a "strong yaw to the left" on go around. I was never taught to anticipate a strong yaw and get ready with right rudder on a go around and I've never needed it. I've never experienced "Oops! I think she's rolling over" on a go around. Point being, is the plane the right plane to e a trainer?
 
L.Adamson said:
Yes...............I see nothing "flawed" in the POH regarding a go-around, at all. I knew exactly what my RV6 & constant speed prop was going to do, if I quickly powered up at low airspeeds. Just be ready for right rudder real quick, and some right aileron if needed. It's the reason you don't full throttle a P-51 on a go-around. It will just roll over.

L.Adamson
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And neither an RV-6, or a P-51 is certified, nor are they typical primary trainers. The point I'm trying to make is, not what all the planes of the world do, but rather what makes a good trainer and are the current crop of new design light sport planes really that plane.
 
zaitcev said:
P.S. On second reading maybe Nate meant to say that any power change requires a trim change eventually, which is true enough. I thought we discussed this awful accident and other cases of the nose suddenly going up. In such cases fumbling with trim is going to kill, IMHO. BTW, since starting aviation I came from 10 push-ups a set to 25 push-ups. On a go-around that yoke is going forward trim or no trim.
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Yeah, that's a better way to put it. It often may not be #1 priority, but as the right hand goes about its business for a go-around, it's throttle up and carb heat off -- by sticking my thumb out and pushing both forward -- flaps to 10, then right back across to the trim wheel, because by then the yoke has been pitched to the appropriate climb-out angle by sticking the cowl on the horizon (or AI at one bar up) with the yoke, and now I trim away the control pressure as soon as I can.

Agreed with the person who said they change their aim point with power too, that's fine. You're not fighting the yoke in that case either. The airplane wants to return to trim airspeed and has to find equilibrium when you add power, so it doesn't come down as fast, and vice-versa.

You don't want to end up so far out of trim that you're holding hard constant pressure against an airplane that wants to do something else. If there's yoke pressure, as soon as the right hand isn't busy, it should be removing the pressure.

Back pressure can get pretty high in a 182 if you were trimmed all the way up for a steep power-off approach. I don't know about Jabiru.
 
Dav8or said:
This is so to a degree, but I have never flown a plane yet where there is a "strong yaw to the left" on go around. I was never taught to anticipate a strong yaw and get ready with right rudder on a go around and I've never needed it. I've never experienced "Oops! I think she's rolling over" on a go around. Point being, is the plane the right plane to e a trainer?
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Not a trainer, per se... but come play with the low speed full-flap envelope of my Robertson STOL 182.

What happens is, you're so slow that the rudder has very little authority. All the left turning factors of high power and a climb angle, conspire at the time when the rudder is weakest.

The "Robertson method" described in the POH Addendum for a Flap 30 takeoff, actually starts with "Rudder trim, full right."

Now do it as a go-around -- right at touchdown speed, with flap 40 hanging out. It WILL seek the left ditch if you don't add a whole lot of right rudder input.
 
Henning said:
Learning new things at 60 has its complications.
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Could not agree more with this statement...
I'm 64 and last year when I finally had the time to live my dream of becoming a GA Pilot I signed up for a 3 week accelerated PPL Course, I lasted all of a week and a half had just got to do my first solo's and I had to hold my hand up and call a halt, I was just completely stressed and burned out such was the intensity of the 3 week "Zero to PPL" course.

I decided to do it on a hour by hour basis, flying for 2 or three hours a day on 1 week stints every couple of months, it took me the best part of a year to reach and pass my checkride in October. The day after I passed my checkride I had to leave Florida to return home to the UK, I won't pilot an aircraft again until I return to Florida in January.....and who will be in the right hand seat as I roll down the runway for my first flight ? ...my CFI !
Yes I have my ticket, legally I no longer need him sat there, but in the interest of my own safely and anyone else's, I will be happier when I have done a mock checkride with him again before venturing out alone or with my wife on board.

I am very saddened to read of this lady's accident,unfortunately it serves has a harsh reminder of how vulnerable we are, especially during our flight training.

Sincere condolences to her family and friends.
RIP mam
 
Dav8or said:
This is so to a degree, but I have never flown a plane yet where there is a "strong yaw to the left" on go around. I was never taught to anticipate a strong yaw and get ready with right rudder on a go around and I've never needed it. I've never experienced "Oops! I think she's rolling over" on a go around. Point being, is the plane the right plane to e a trainer?
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Man I think you are missing some important training.

Try a power on stall in a 172 with no rudder input. Or any SEL for that matter. (Maybe not a pa-28 though) The thing will break and drop the left wing hard. The ball will be way out of the cage leading up to the stall. On the other hand, if you do a power on stall while you have the correct amount of right rudder in, ball centered, it won't drop a wing.
 
Here is an example. Student botches a landing in a 172 then gives full power for a go around. Watch the plane yaw left and hear the guys saying 'right rudder!' If the student had pulled back on the yoke in this situation, with flaps out and the airplane severely uncoordinated, the plane would not only stall but the left wing would tuck under and it would take several hundred feet to recover at that point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eopl5QLQ5zs&sns=em
 
dell30rb said:
Here is an example. Student botches a landing in a 172 then gives full power for a go around. Watch the plane yaw left and hear the guys saying 'right rudder!' If the student had pulled back on the yoke in this situation, with flaps out and the airplane severely uncoordinated, the plane would not only stall but the left wing would tuck under and it would take several hundred feet to recover at that point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eopl5QLQ5zs&sns=em
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Great video - (my guess) plane stayed yawed probably until the pilot stopped looking down at/for throttle, mixture, carb heat, and flaps. Looked up (and likely out the left side) and said, "oh my, this isn't right" and applied right boot...
 
denverpilot said:
You don't want to end up so far out of trim that you're holding hard constant pressure against an airplane that wants to do something else.
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True. I suppose I was spoiled by Cherokee 140. Its engine is not powerful enough to re-trim it significantly on a go-around. But then it's hard to imagine J250 requiring it. That's why I thought that maybe the Y-stick shared the blame. But then remember that other guy who stalled in his first solo in a C-150? Obviously 150 has a yoke.
 
The point of impact was about 450' left of the Runway 14 center line. The two hangers the aircraft hit (where the Citation is parked on the Google map) were about 1/3 of the distance from the 5,500' Runway 14 threshold. Based on these observations, it appears the aircraft yawed aggressively to the left and there was little or no corrective rudder input. When the aircraft turned toward the hangers it is likely the pilot instinctively pulled on the stick to gain altitude, resulting in a stall as the aircraft turned on its back.

I can see where suddenly finding oneself in a situation that is completely unexpected would result in panic, especially given the age of the student. Although I can only assume what happened, perhaps the sudden application of throttle in a light aircraft with limited load capacity and without the weight of the instructor on board quickly overwhelmed the pilot's training.

As in all such incidents, all we can do is file the information for use in our own flying and express sorrow at the loss of a fellow pilot.

https://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF...q=Cherokee+County+Airport&iwloc=A&gl=US&hl=en
 
Dav8or said:
This is so to a degree, but I have never flown a plane yet where there is a "strong yaw to the left" on go around. I was never taught to anticipate a strong yaw and get ready with right rudder on a go around and I've never needed it.
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I suspect you have probably never seen a video yourself doing a go-around.


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dell30rb said:
All SEL (with a few exotic exceptions) will yaw left upon sudden application of power at low airspeed.
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Not trying to diminish your point, but it is worth mentioning that the 'few exotic exceptions' are increasing as more folks get into EABs. As I have been looking in the market lately, I have come across quite a few experimentals with engines turning the other direction (ie you need LEFT rudder on takeoff).




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The Jabiru needs a lot more right rudder during takeoff and climb than the Mooney and Cessnas I've flown
 
dell30rb said:
Man I think you are missing some important training.

Try a power on stall in a 172 with no rudder input. Or any SEL for that matter. (Maybe not a pa-28 though) The thing will break and drop the left wing hard. The ball will be way out of the cage leading up to the stall. On the other hand, if you do a power on stall while you have the correct amount of right rudder in, ball centered, it won't drop a wing.
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It will still drop the left wing, just not so aggressively. The spiralling propeller slipstream gets the AoA higher on the left wing root, starting the stall sooner there, and propeller torque reaction does the rest.

Dan
 
DogDaddy said:
NineThreeKilo, your comment made me remember something my instructor told me many times up till my solo. Before, during, and after flights he would stress that for any particular pitch/power setting and flap configuration, the plane will behave exactly the same way every time. The plane will always get into the same descent rate and airspeed. It has no mind of its own.
So when it was time for my solo, as I pulled onto the runway I had that brief moment where I asked myself, "Are you really ready for this, after all, once you rotate you will be completely on your own; no one will be able to get into the plane with me to help you. This is your last chance to change your mind." But that thought was immediately replaced with what my instructor kept saying (and what he had me prove to myself). So I realized I needed to trust the aircraft and just do everything the same as as I did on the previous 10 times around the pattern.
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While all true, weight is also a factor, and on first solo you've shed (at least for MY students) a pretty significant portion of the payload! They need to be ready for that change.
 
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