Still in shock -- lost a wonderful lady yesterday

Now every student, wondering "when is that guy going to solo me" need understand why CFIs, as a species, tie with Mother Hen for wanting everything right.....

"why is my CFI milking my wallet dry?" Well, maybe, he's not!
 
PilotAlan said:
T&G does not equal go around. The order of operations is different, and the priorities are different.
I am not a fan of T&Gs, as the order of operations get burned in your head and can bite you on a go around.

T&G:
1 - Raise flaps all at once
2 - Apply throttle
3 - Monitor airspeed
4 - Pitch Up
5 - Establish Climb

Go around -
1 - Apply throttle
2 - Pitch Up
3 - Monitor airspeed
4 - Establish climb
5 - Raise flaps in stages

Get those in the wrong order on a go around, and an accident is likely.
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Be very careful providing a general checklist. Your first item in the Touch and Go checklist could be fatal in some aircraft.

I am very saddened by this loss. I agree that go-arounds should be drilled just as much as any other aviating skill.
 
bbchien said:
Now every student, wondering "when is that guy going to solo me" need understand why CFIs, as a species, tie with Mother Hen for wanting everything right.....

"why is my CFI milking my wallet dry?" Well, maybe, he's not!
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Agree. I think the older the CFI, and the more s/he has seen . . . .
 
marcoseddi said:
Wow sorry! Seems to be too many accidents going on lately.
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Or we just hear about them. When I started flying, a monthly magazine didn't chronicle every accident in near real-time.

The Internet was USENET and barely anyone was on it.

Today, pilot numbers have dwindled, and the folklore and conversations once held in the front room of the FBO, are now held here, virtually.
 
bbchien said:
Now every student, wondering "when is that guy going to solo me" need understand why CFIs, as a species, tie with Mother Hen for wanting everything right.....

"why is my CFI milking my wallet dry?" Well, maybe, he's not!
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Agreed. Many condolences to the pilot's family and friends. This is never easy.

No way is what I am posting here a comment on this tragic event, but it's funny how so many students at the field are so proud and competitive about being able to 'solo' at XX hours, the fewer the hours till solo, the 'better' a pilot they seem to feel they are....alot of them push their CFI relentlessly to solo them.
 
PilotAlan said:
T&G does not equal go around. The order of operations is different, and the priorities are different.
I am not a fan of T&Gs, as the order of operations get burned in your head and can bite you on a go around.

T&G:
1 - Raise flaps all at once
2 - Apply throttle
3 - Monitor airspeed
4 - Pitch Up
5 - Establish Climb

Go around -
1 - Apply throttle
2 - Pitch Up
3 - Monitor airspeed
4 - Establish climb
5 - Raise flaps in stages

Get those in the wrong order on a go around, and an accident is likely.
Click to expand...

I agree with Ben. Dumping the flaps first is a good way to crash in an RV. Throttle first, maintain airspeed and attitude, while dumping flaps slowly.
 
Geico266 said:
I agree with Ben. Dumping the flaps first is a good way to crash in an RV. Throttle first, maintain airspeed and attitude, while dumping flaps slowly.
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On the touch and go, you raise the flaps all at once before you leave the ground. At least that's the way we do it.
 
PilotAlan said:
T&G does not equal go around. ....
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I agree with that statement.

Some planes do take off with a certain amount of flaps in so on those I suspect you would not dump all flaps on a Touch and Go.

@ Larry, on the RV do you take off with some flaps in? When I did Touch n Gos in a yankee the routine that was taught was on touch down take out all flaps, re trim and full power so the flap dump was when the tires were on the runway.

Again such a tragic event :(
 
Soloed at 19 hrs, finished at 60 hrs in six weeks. I was his first student. Safety first. My family never saw me fly until our first short xc together. Why do most pilots want an audience and the distractions during training? We just had a 172 hit an SUV while getting videoed recently. Remind me to never get in a Jabiru that pops apart like that. Of course a stall/spin in any aircraft can be deadly. Sorry for their loss.
 
We had a guy get hurt here two Novembers ago. He is flying now- but it was a big deal. Second solo flare was 20 feet high. His CFI is no longer a CFI. Kevin had trained many many students over the years....

No matter what you think about nanny sitting with the handheld, I would have been shouting "go around, go around". Would that have helped our local guy? MAYBE.
 
Geico266 said:
We are talking about a go around. Try dumping all the flaps 10' off the ground. :eek: ;)
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The guy being criticized for saying one should retract there flaps all at once, only said to do that on a T&G. On the go around, he said do them incrementally after you have applied power.
 
MassPilot said:
I think it's a problem that CFI's (at least the few I've flown with) don't focus on go-arounds. The only time I ever did them is when it was safer to do so then complete the landing, which wasn't all that often.
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I had the opposite experience, my instructor would mess up a perfect approach every now and then by calling for a go around at the last minute. Pre and post solo.

Sorry to hear about this. That plane is really cracked up. Are they composite?
 
Geico266 said:
We are talking about a go around. Try dumping all the flaps 10' off the ground. :eek: ;)
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He was comparing go around vs T&G procedures in response to the comment that one trains for the other when in fact they set up confusion for each other. As you say try the T&G procedure on a go around and you'll likely crash.
 
Henning said:
He was comparing go around vs T&G procedures in response to the comment that one trains for the other when in fact they set up confusion for each other. As you say try the T&G procedure on a go around and you'll likely crash.
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Yea, sorry for even suggesting one has anything to do with the other. The only reason it entered my mind, was unless you do touch and go's, you are less likely to think about configuration on take off.

I should have just said:

If you go around, don't forget to clean up.
 
Sorry. That just totally sucks. RIP pilot.
 
So sorry to hear about this. These kind of stories always make me wonder just what went wrong and how can we learn from it.

My instructor had me do plenty of go arounds and I'm grateful he did. Used it more than once.

Thoughts and prayers to family and friends.
 
RIP. Its even more sad because the pilot was very innocent at that stage. I always thought touch and go(solo) as a student pilot was a bad idea, probably because my CFI's didn't allow it.

Go around at 10ft AGL is a good practice, and even more challengeing if you're getting pushed around by a good crosswind.

For t&g I was taught....

-Flaps
-carb heat * Forget this on a hot summer day and you're not climbing too well(in the 152)
-Trim
-throttle
 
Last edited:
Mike5250 said:
Flaps
carb heat * Forget this on a hot summer day and you're not climbing too well(in the 152)
Trim
throttle
Click to expand...

Power first. This is how it was explained to me:

Power up
Clean up
Speak up.

Don't forget to call it out on the radio.
 
dell30rb said:
I had the opposite experience, my instructor would mess up a perfect approach every now and then by calling for a go around at the last minute. Pre and post solo.
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My instructor too! I was like "That was ideal, what's your deal?" He'd just sit there and be like "yeah it looked good why bother landing then let's get the most bang for your buck"

Sad to see another pilot gone. I think I cried a little bit. In a moment life can be lost all for doing something wrong.
 
Mafoo said:
Not sure what's to brush up on. I think it's more of a frame of mind then a skill. Some might think a go around = failure, so they don't wish to do it.

Well, I take that back. If you never do touch and go's, their might be a little training in a go-around, or you might forget to clean up.
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Yes - I remember my last go around was at the flour bombing in front of all the pilots at the airport. They thought I was playing a joke, and it was the first go around my boyfriend has ever been a part of as well.

That was hard since it was in front of everyone. The landing wasn't working out and I just wanted to make sure I was safe. I think one said I didn't climb and / or dropped a bit after the go around so I may need to work on my routine / cleaning up the plane in proper order. Since it is not something I practice, and I don't do touch and go's - ever - I could literally go 6-12 months without ever doing this manuever.

So this is one very important thing I should work on. Next time I go up I'll be sure to do so, after reviewing proper sequence / procedure on the ground.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I think one said I didn't climb and / or dropped a bit after the go around so I may need to work on my routine / cleaning up the plane in proper order.
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I was kinda wondering about this: is it always possible not to lose altitude in go around? I think not always. If you are already on the back of the power curve, you might have the power to fly level, but you're sinking. Arresting this sink requires lift, which you can only derive from speed, maintaining which requires the power. In this case, you will continue to sink until the speed is back, inevitably. If they're in front of the curve, people typically manage to level by giving up the airspeed and then teeter there before they accelerate. That may save you from comments by onlookers, but is this the best idea? Say, in gusty conditions?

My 200 hours say: screw the commenters, I'm losing the altitude for airspeed on go-arounds, all the way to the contact with the runway, if necessary. This is subject to meeting a pickup on runway, of course, but even so airspeed is my energy buffer from which I can borrow. If I'm hanging on the prop, I don't have that option.
 
zaitcev said:
I was kinda wondering about this: is it always possible not to lose altitude in go around? I think not always. If you are already on the back of the power curve, you might have the power to fly level, but you're sinking. Arresting this sink requires lift, which you can only derive from speed, maintaining which requires the power. In this case, you will continue to sink until the speed is back, inevitably. If they're in front of the curve, people typically manage to level by giving up the airspeed and then teeter there before they accelerate. That may save you from comments by onlookers, but is this the best idea? Say, in gusty conditions?

My 200 hours say: screw the commenters, I'm losing the altitude for airspeed on go-arounds, all the way to the contact with the runway, if necessary. This is subject to meeting a pickup on runway, of course, but even so airspeed is my energy buffer from which I can borrow. If I'm hanging on the prop, I don't have that option.
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You are going to lose a bit depending on the aircraft, the conditions and the configuration etc.

Most large aircraft, even on checkrides, when given an intentional go around you are allowed to touch the ground as long as you have already initiated the go around.
 
Mafoo said:
On the touch and go, you raise the flaps all at once before you leave the ground. At least that's the way we do it.
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NO. Not for all airplanes! The Cirrus, for example, requires takeoff flaps.
 
spiderweb said:
NO. Not for all airplanes! The Cirrus, for example, requires takeoff flaps.
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But the takeoff flaps are less then the landing flaps right? So if you land at 30 degrees, and take off at 10, you raise then "all at once" to 10 degrees. There is no need to worry about staging them, because your rolling down the runway.
 
I teach Power, Pitch, Configuration in most airplanes.
 
Mike5250 said:
Go around at 10ft AGL is a good practice, and even more challengeing if you're getting pushed around by a good crosswind.


Flaps
carb heat * Forget this on a hot summer day and you're not climbing too well(in the 152)
Trim
throttle
Click to expand...

I hope you are describing a T&G.

That prescription for a Go Around at 10 feet will have you touching pavement first and probably bending some metal.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I hope you are describing a T&G.

That prescription for a Go Around at 10 feet will have you touching pavement first and probably bending some metal.
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That list is followed by an asterisk

*Read list from bottom to top
 
Mafoo said:
But the takeoff flaps are less then the landing flaps right? So if you land at 30 degrees, and take off at 10, you raise then "all at once" to 10 degrees. There is no need to worry about staging them, because your rolling down the runway.
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I would imagine he is talking about a go around not a touch and go. Who cares how fast you move the flaps up on the ground?
 
IMHO go-around is a safety critical skill but touch & go is not. T&G is a convenient way of squeezing more pattern work out of time and money constrained student pilots so in a sense we could argue that more T&G translates into more safety but it is indirect. The GA on the other hand is a maneuver that the pilot must be proficient with in order to evade hazards or to mitigate an unstable approach, a direct safety impact. I think a good compromise for the T&G is the stop & go, runway length permitting.

As a point of reference, I soloed at 16 for .5 hrs and then had another 8 of dual before logging any more solo time. Have since logged just over 200 hrs and earned an instrument rating. I'm still amazed I didn't manage to get myself into trouble more often than I did before my instrument training. Executed a go-around just a few weeks ago on a windy day as a non-event. Never think about it much I guess because since my PPL training I don't remember doing any T&Gs. The only thing close to it for me now is night currency pattern work if needed, which is all stop & go. Maybe T&G would be OK with an instructor but I'm inclined to recommend that student solos might be better to restrict to go-around and stop & go maneuvers.
 
I know that all CFIs are different - mine told me "no solo touch and gos". Just too much happening all at once, and the concentration tends to be on the 'go' part so much that the landing, roll out, and directional control practice gets shortchanged.
 
spiderweb said:
NO. Not for all airplanes! The Cirrus, for example, requires takeoff flaps.
Click to expand...

Relevant to this is that I believe some models of the Jabiru recommend or require one stage of flaps during takeoff.
 
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