Starting the process of buying my first plane...advice needed

get a cherokee 140 or warrior 161, something like that. You can go along way, and you will build time getting there..

Plan on renting to finish your commerical, cfi and of course Multi. You won't get much of a flying job without quite a bit of Multi time.. So plan on buying that Apache referenced above in about two years anyway. Or just bite the bullet and buy it now..

If you are not sure if flying is for you.. Try this test
1. Go to the bank and get 5 new 100 dollar bills.
2. Hand out the first two to strangers
3. Throw away the next too (you can't go back and get them)
4. Light the other two with a match.

If you successfully complete this, you may be mentally prepared.
 
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haha I know it's a long, rough, expensive road to getting to the point where you're hirable as a commercial pilot if you do it the civilian route. I've come to grips with this. It's what I've wanted to do from the point I got eye surgury on.
 
I know it'd be more expensive mx wise based solely on twin engines but how is the overall GPH, are they fixed prop, and can you buy them with fixed gear or are they a fully complex?

ja_user said:
get a cherokee 140 or warrior 161, something like that. You can go along way, and you will build time getting there..

Plan on renting to finish your commerical, cfi and of course Multi. You won't get much of a flying job without quite a bit of Multi time.. So plan on buying that Apache referenced above in about two years anyway. Or just bite the bullet and buy it now..

If you are not sure if flying is for you.. Try this test
1. Go to the bank and get 5 new 100 dollar bills.
2. Hand out the first two to strangers
3. Throw away the next too (you can't go back and get them)
4. Light the other two with a match.

If you successfully complete this, you may be mentally prepared.
Click to expand...
 
ltsheets said:
I know it'd be more expensive mx wise based solely on twin engines but how is the overall GPH, are they fixed prop, and can you buy them with fixed gear or are they a fully complex?
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Most will be constant speed props and more complex overall..

GPH is about what you would expect, twice as much for about the same speed..

The Apache reference above was done so, because it is common to take an old and reasonably fuel efficient twin and just go places at really low power/fuel burn settings. You are building hours, not miles.

If you try to make any of the twins go fast, then you will burn through fuel like you wouldn't believe :)
 
What was Henning asking for his bird? $120k?
 
ja_user said:
If you are not sure if flying is for you.. Try this test
1. Go to the bank and get 5 new 100 dollar bills.
2. Hand out the first two to strangers
3. Throw away the next two (you can't go back and get them)
4. Light the other two with a match.

If you successfully complete this, you may be mentally prepared.
Click to expand...

Ummm.... this is a trick question? :rofl:
 
Gotcha. My questions here were specifically refering to the Apache in regards to GPH, prop, gear, etc. Also, how much of an adv is it to have a majority multi time when being looked at by airlines even if it's an Archer vs warrior or something similar.

ja_user said:
Most will be constant speed props and more complex overall..

GPH is about what you would expect, twice as much for about the same speed..

The Apache reference above was done so, because it is common to take an old and reasonably fuel efficient twin and just go places at really low power/fuel burn settings. You are building hours, not miles.

If you try to make any of the twins go fast, then you will burn through fuel like you wouldn't believe :)
Click to expand...
 
ltsheets said:
If I buy by myself, probably 35k max. If I buy with a partner, probably 60k max.
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Advice: Unless you're comfortable with the concept of sharing other items in your life (wife/girlfriend, car, home, etc), never.... I repeat, never share an aircraft with a partner particularly if you consider that person a friend. Many out there have made it work, but when that situation goes wrong, it can go very wrong. YMMV
 
Joe_KansasCity said:
Advice: Unless you're comfortable with the concept of sharing other items in your life (wife/girlfriend, car, home, etc), never.... I repeat, never share an aircraft with a partner particularly if you consider that person a friend. Many out there have made it work, but when that situation goes wrong, it can go very wrong. YMMV
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So can I borrow your plane?
 
Thanks for the advice. The guy I might go in with is another military guy with tons of experience, he's the CFII i've been flying with to finish my PPL and I trust him extensively. This is definately somethign I wouldn't take lightly.

Joe_KansasCity said:
Advice: Unless you're comfortable with the concept of sharing other items in your life (wife/girlfriend, car, home, etc), never.... I repeat, never share an aircraft with a partner particularly if you consider that person a friend. Many out there have made it work, but when that situation goes wrong, it can go very wrong. YMMV
Click to expand...
 
Joe_KansasCity said:
Are you offering your wife/girlfriend in trade?

Edit: On the other hand....with a female dog, two teenage daughters, a bride of 21 years the last thing I need is another female telling me what to do.
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Tell you what, when I take your plane, I will leave my car in exchange !!! :lol::lol::lol:

Which airport are you at Joe? MKC or OJC?
 
ltsheets said:
Thanks for the advice. The guy I might go in with is another military guy with tons of experience, he's the CFII i've been flying with to finish my PPL and I trust him extensively. This is definately somethign I wouldn't take lightly.
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Lots of data on the board about setting up a quality co-ownership arrangement.

Summary: develop and execute a solid written agreement that covers everything, from small to big, from simple to way out crazy. Much of time, you might not touch have the details in there. But it might be needed someday if things go worse than sideways.

Hint: Sheldon Cooper has the right idea, including the Body Snatchers and Godzilla Clauses
 
Yeah I'll take a look at all that. I'm definitely going to write up a detailed contract if I go in with someone else.

I'm really intrigued about the Piper Archer idea but that is not something I would do unless going in with a more experienced pilot. I guess it depends on just how important having the majority of my hours being multi time is to the airlines come hiring time.
 
ltsheets said:
Yeah I'll take a look at all that. I'm definitely going to write up a detailed contract if I go in with someone else.

I'm really intrigued about the Piper Archer idea but that is not something I would do unless going in with a more experienced pilot. I guess it depends on just how important having the majority of my hours being multi time is to the airlines come hiring time.
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there is no other time that counts
 
I've done it on more than 20 planes. Whatever boogey-man you're worried about can probably be handled.

Joe_KansasCity said:
Advice: Unless you're comfortable with the concept of sharing other items in your life (wife/girlfriend, car, home, etc), never.... I repeat, never share an aircraft with a partner particularly if you consider that person a friend. Many out there have made it work, but when that situation goes wrong, it can go very wrong. YMMV
Click to expand...
 
I get about 18nmpg (about 21smpg) up high in my Mooney 201. You can get about the same efficiency with a Cessna 150, but you won't get it at 165 knots ;)

My first airplane was a Cessna 172 with the 180hp engine. It was about a 110 knot airplane but burned almost as much gas as the Mooney and it got about 14nmpg. Never flown a warrior, but I've flown a Cherokee 180 and think that's a good bird. I'd look at the Pa28/180 line closely. The one I flew IIRC trued out at about 115.
 
wabower said:
I've done it on more than 20 planes. Whatever boogey-man you're worried about can probably be handled.
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yeah I don't get the emotional attachment either. I have a neighbor who will borrow my plane and leave me his without asking, and vice versa. It works out fine except sometimes I'm travelling alone and it's aggravating to open my hangar and find his gas hog C-414 instead of my little plane.
 
ltsheets said:
Yeah I'll take a look at all that. I'm definitely going to write up a detailed contract if I go in with someone else.

I'm really intrigued about the Piper Archer idea but that is not something I would do unless going in with a more experienced pilot. I guess it depends on just how important having the majority of my hours being multi time is to the airlines come hiring time.
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An Archer is probably easier to fly than a Hershey wing Cherokee, and it's definitely faster. If you've got the Money for an Archer Id give those a look too.
 
AggieMike88 said:
No kidding. I attended a WINGS seminar at ARTCsim (www.artcsim.com) last night and viewed their offerings and talked with the owner. Per hour prices for the various ones are CHEAP compared to the actual aircraft, even the Redbird they have.
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So much of multi-engine training is just developing the muscle memory to react to an engine failure, i.e. /dead foot/throttle/mixture/prop/fuel selector.... It's like a little dance step you have to learn.

It's cheaper, easier, safer, and less stressful to learn the routine in a sim compared to a real airplane.
 
wabower said:
I've done it on more than 20 planes. Whatever boogey-man you're worried about can probably be handled.
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Wayne, well conceived agreements can typically protect everyone's financial health and well being and provide a framework for the interaction of the partners. That being said, no document can overcome incompatible personalities. Some people (like me) who are very particular about all aspects of maintenance and care simply are not capable of partnering with others who are comfortable with just meeting a standard, or leaving the aircraft looking like a 4x4 after an off-road outing, including using the rear seat as a depository for fast food garbage. It's not always easy to tell the Oscars from the Felixs prior to experiencing the partnership, and it's rare for "Odd Couples" to thrive for any period of time.

Scheduling is a anther issue. Aircraft ownership to me is all about being able to go somewhere and return when I choose, even at the spur of the moment. Any partnership, no matter how amiable, places at least some restrictions on availability of the aircraft.

When and if I can no longer afford to own an aircraft individually, I'll either take a hiatus from ownership (been there, done that), or find another passion.
 
Multi training aside, the sims are even better for IR training. Being able to fly approaches without making a lap for each one is a huge time-saver.

JimNtexas said:
So much of multi-engine training is just developing the muscle memory to react to an engine failure, i.e. /dead foot/throttle/mixture/prop/fuel selector.... It's like a little dance step you have to learn.

It's cheaper, easier, safer, and less stressful to learn the routine in a sim compared to a real airplane.
Click to expand...
 
Great info! Thanks.

DavidWhite said:
I get about 18nmpg (about 21smpg) up high in my Mooney 201. You can get about the same efficiency with a Cessna 150, but you won't get it at 165 knots ;)

My first airplane was a Cessna 172 with the 180hp engine. It was about a 110 knot airplane but burned almost as much gas as the Mooney and it got about 14nmpg. Never flown a warrior, but I've flown a Cherokee 180 and think that's a good bird. I'd look at the Pa28/180 line closely. The one I flew IIRC trued out at about 115.
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LtSheets -- Something that has yet to be said in this thread....

Once you've narrowed your range down to a few aircraft, see about trying going on a flight in them. Especially on an XC of 60-90 minutes if possible.

Frequently the difference can be pretty noticeable between on the ground or short flights versus longer ones where you're actually in cruise mode for a while. Sorta light your boats where one is great in-shore, but not the best choice when you lose sight of land.

You need to see how well the aircraft fits you. The Mooney vs. P&C are a good example. The seats "sit" a bit lower to the floor with your legs extended a bit more (think sports cars) where P & C sit a bit taller (think pickup trucks). Are you good with narrow cabin widths or do you need wider?

As a low time pilot, the trouble with making a purchase is there are sooo many choices out there. And with so few being bone stock and already modified with something, makes it even more challenging.

Just don't be in a big hurry. Keep putting aside purchase money, do your homework, and eventually the right one will become available.
 
Excellent advice. I certainly don't plan on purchasing without flying in several different types of planes to see which fits me best. I'm hopefully going to be ready to make a purchase around March whether that's on my own or with a partner. We'll see how things go.

AggieMike88 said:
LtSheets -- Something that has yet to be said in this thread....

Once you've narrowed your range down to a few aircraft, see about trying going on a flight in them. Especially on an XC of 60-90 minutes if possible.

Frequently the difference can be pretty noticeable between on the ground or short flights versus longer ones where you're actually in cruise mode for a while. Sorta light your boats where one is great in-shore, but not the best choice when you lose sight of land.

You need to see how well the aircraft fits you. The Mooney vs. P&C are a good example. The seats "sit" a bit lower to the floor with your legs extended a bit more (think sports cars) where P & C sit a bit taller (think pickup trucks). Are you good with narrow cabin widths or do you need wider?

As a low time pilot, the trouble with making a purchase is there are sooo many choices out there. And with so few being bone stock and already modified with something, makes it even more challenging.

Just don't be in a big hurry. Keep putting aside purchase money, do your homework, and eventually the right one will become available.
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Do you mean "stick and rudder" easier to fly than a Cherokee? I would think an Archer has more to think about considering it's a "complex" plane right?

DavidWhite said:
An Archer is probably easier to fly than a Hershey wing Cherokee, and it's definitely faster. If you've got the Money for an Archer Id give those a look too.
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ltsheets said:
What do you mean by "tome?" There is a CAP at Eglin AFB but apparently it's incredibly strict and almost a pain to be a part of. The reason for purchasing my own is I'm basically planning on flying everytime I can afford to do so from when I get the plane until I can get an ATP or until/IF I get picked up for UPT.

Are you saying that 35k is gonna make it difficult to get anything better than a Cherokee or 172 in regards to cross country ability?
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Depends, how old are you willing to go? There are some sweet early model Bonanzas in that price range, the old skinny 182 are down under $40k as well.
 
ltsheets said:
Ah those make since. So I'm guessing the SMOH is the most important figure to consider other than the total airframe time?
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Total airframe time is largely irrelevant for most GA planes, it's all about care and condition. SMOH when compared against TBO (manufacturer recommendation for PT 91, non governing) and used as a ratio against the cost of an overhaul is what you want to use to get an initial valuation of the engine, there are many modifications to that number to be applied depending on which engine and aircraft it's installed in.
 
ltsheets said:
Excellent advice. I certainly don't plan on purchasing without flying in several different types of planes to see which fits me best. I'm hopefully going to be ready to make a purchase around March whether that's on my own or with a partner. We'll see how things go.
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Don't ignore any local clubs that are available to you.

As stated before, quite possible to get access to good aircraft for minimal cash outlay.
 
ltsheets said:
Do you mean "stick and rudder" easier to fly than a Cherokee? I would think an Archer has more to think about considering it's a "complex" plane right?
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The only thing complex about an Archer is.... well nothing is complex about an Archer. Fixed gear & Fixed prop.... pull nose up houses get smaller...point the nose down houses get bigger.
 
If TTAF doesn't matter, why is it the first item listed in for-sale ads?

Henning said:
Total airframe time is largely irrelevant for most GA planes, it's all about care and condition. SMOH when compared against TBO (manufacturer recommendation for PT 91, non governing) and used as a ratio against the cost of an overhaul is what you want to use to get an initial valuation of the engine, there are many modifications to that number to be applied depending on which engine and aircraft it's installed in.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
If TTAF doesn't matter, why is it the first item listed in for-sale ads?
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Never much figured that out for little GA planes, convention for the most part I suppose. Planes with life limited airframes, yeah, I understand, but with a little GA plane that has no end life on airframe, until you get to the extreme ends of the Bell Curve, it doesn't make a very big difference in prices I see, and is of very dubious value in determining condition. Which do you think would be worth more, identical planes 40 years old, one has 3500 hrs AF and has been on the Ramp at PMP its whole life. The other has 8500 hrs and has lived in hangar in Phoenix and a Hangar in Vegas and has been used as a commuter plane.

Which do you suspect will be more valuable, the better plane, less likely to cause you a major airframe and/or avionics repair bill in the next couple of years?
 
DavidWhite said:
An Archer is probably easier to fly than a Hershey wing Cherokee...
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in the same way that walking on a hardwood floor is easier than walking on carpet. If either is the slightest issue it might be time for a wheelchair.
 
Joe_KansasCity said:
The only thing complex about an Archer is.... well nothing is complex about an Archer. Fixed gear & Fixed prop.... pull nose up houses get smaller...point the nose down houses get bigger.
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They do tend to have electric trim :)
 
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