Starting the process of buying my first plane...advice needed

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ltsheets

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ltsheets
So I'm starting to research planes to buy my first next march or April if all goes well. I'm finishing my PPL by the end of Jan most likely, Feb at the latest. My reason for buying a plane is building hours and getting ratings with the final goal of an ATP and being a commercial pilot. I'm not familiar with many planes yet, I've flown a 172, 152, and DA-20. I don't know much yet about what I want minimum yet in the plane other than seating for 4, garmin 430 or better, and economical to fly considering how often I plan on flying it. I'm hoping for any advice you guys have to give. Thanks in advance.


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What is our purchase budget? What will be 85-90% of your flying missions besides tome building?
 
I've got just the aircraft for you. It meets every single one of your requirements except the economical part...

Prop re-seal and new ignition harnesses seem to be the order of the day after the voltage regulator replacement.

On the economical to operate side, as a rough approximation for op cost look at hourly fuel burn, convert to cost then double it. That'll get you in the ballpark. When just looking at specs remember that fuel burn is proportional to horsepower and select accordingly. The Mooneys and Grummans do a little better and the Pipers do a little worse than the Cessnas you're used to.
 
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If I buy by myself, probably 35k max. If I buy with a partner, probably 60k max.

AggieMike88 said:
What is our purchase budget? What will be 85-90% of your flying missions besides tome building?
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It'll also be flown primarily as an hour/ratings builder. I'd like it to be fast enough to enjoy a lot of cross country type trips to try and get experience at as many different airports as possible. The overall goal is to be a commercial pilot. I'm currently an active duty Air Force Nav and will be going guard or reserves in about 2 years so the plan is to build hours and ratings in the meantime to shorten my timeframe to be hirable by regionals if able. I'm looking for advice on anything and everything in regards to buying a plane. Hope this helps.
 
wabower said:
Does this mean he'll be getting the Ramsey lecture?:hairraise::D`
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"tomebuilding" sheesh....that iPad space bar is about 1/16 of an inch to short some times. I keep tagging the M key.

And as much grief as you give me about DR, following those principles is what is providing me the opportunity to experience private pilotage.

ltsheets said:
If I buy by myself, probably 35k max. If I buy with a partner, probably 60k max.
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With a 35k budget, that's gonna put you into the Piper Cherokee's, 140hp and 160hp. Not much of a longer range hauler, but perfect for local fun flying, getting your instrument rating, and building "tome".

With 60k, it's possible to find older C182's and some Piper Warrior's and perhaps an Archer. Decent short body Mooney's are also in this layer.


Are there any good clubs in your area? For a modest buy in and dues setup, a whole lot of flying can be done with what's left over of your 35K budget. Overall, possible to access a nicer aircraft (possibly several aircraft), obtain lots of valuable mentoring from club members, and reduced demands on your personal money when expensive maintenance occurs or inspections are due.

As an example near me, look at www.metroflyersclub.com and www.rfcdallas.com
 
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What do you mean by "tome?" There is a CAP at Eglin AFB but apparently it's incredibly strict and almost a pain to be a part of. The reason for purchasing my own is I'm basically planning on flying everytime I can afford to do so from when I get the plane until I can get an ATP or until/IF I get picked up for UPT.

Are you saying that 35k is gonna make it difficult to get anything better than a Cherokee or 172 in regards to cross country ability?
 
AggieMike88 said:
"tomebuilding" sheesh....that iPad space bar is about 1/16 of an inch to short some times. I keep tagging the M key.

With a 35k budget, that's gonna put you into the Piper Cherokee's, 140hp and 160hp. Not much of a longer range hauler, but perfect for local fun flying, getting your instrument rating, and building "tome".
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You can get a decent PA28 for $35K. Warriors and Cherokee 140s are actually very long range airplanes as single engine airplanes go. While they are not particularly fast, they have 50 gallons of gas and burn less than 10gph at max LR cruise.

You need 1500 hours now to get a job flying Part 121, so what you need is hours, not miles.

Does the Air Force even have have 'navigators' any more, or are you called Combat Systems Guy In the Back Weapons Preflighter' or some-such.

I was a WSO/EWO back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, but I always liked to call my self a 'Navigator', it just sounds cool I've always thought.
 
ltsheets said:
What do you mean by "tome?"
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iPad typo. Notice how close the "i" and the "o" key are? Fat fingered syndrome strikes again!

There is a CAP at Eglin AFB but apparently it's incredibly strict and almost a pain to be a part of. The reason for purchasing my own is I'm basically planning on flying everytime I can afford to do so from when I get the plane until I can get an ATP or until/IF I get picked up for UPT.

Are you saying that 35k is gonna make it difficult to get anything better than a Cherokee or 172 in regards to cross country ability?
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Pretty much.

For the commercial ride, you're going to need retract and (i think) a more powerful aircraft with a constant speed prop. Finding good ones south of $40k with decent times on the engine and the panel you're desiring will be a challenging prospect.

PA28's and C172's are decent XC machines. Not the fastest thing in the sky, but a good choice for building XC time. With those, you can leverage the slower speeds and the long distance since it sounds like what you're looking for is hours in the logbook. Going Cherokee speeds versus Mooney or Bonanza speeds works for this.

Browse Controller.com, Barnstomers.com, and Trade-a-Plane.com using the search function where you can put in your budget range. That will give you a feel for what is on the current market in that range.
 
You're near Eglin, right? Applying Google-fu found a club right in your back yard that looks worth of investigation

http://www.eglinaeroclub.com/. Entry and dues are CHEEAAAP!

The rental costs and instructor rates look really good for the area and fuel prices: http://www.eglinaeroclub.com/Aircraft.aspx

This might be a very good fit for you if you're current military.
 
For under $60K please get a simple four cylinder fixed gear, fixed prop airplane! Trust me on this! Find a friendly A&P to supervise and you can do a huge amount of the required maintenance yourself.

Get your instrument rating in it. You don't need the kind of huge maintenance surprises that lurking in more complex GA airplanes!

Come down here to San Marcos Texas and get fixed price commercial and multi ratings at Redbird using their very nice sims and airplanes. Especially for multi-engine training their sims will save you a fortune.
 
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Yeah I'm actually a Combat Systems Officer in the back of an AFSOC plane. However if I end up at the Charlotte guard as a Nav, it is in the traditional sense.

I do understand that I need hours and not miles but my thinking when it comes to cross country is that it's fun to travel and the more airports I see experience wise, the better.

JimNtexas said:
You can get a decent PA28 for $35K. Warriors and Cherokee 140s are actually very long range airplanes as single engine airplanes go. While they are not particularly fast, they have 50 gallons of gas and burn less than 10gph at max LR cruise.

You need 1500 hours now to get a job flying Part 121, so what you need is hours, not miles.

Does the Air Force even have have 'navigators' any more, or are you called Combat Systems Guy In the Back Weapons Preflighter' or some-such.

I was a WSO/EWO back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, but I always liked to call my self a 'Navigator', it just sounds cool I've always thought.
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I'm SORTA close to eglin. Actually about 50 mins to drive there from home compared to flying out of Milton (north of my house) which is about 25 mins from home. It's just a lot more convenient for evening flights and spur of the moment flights to fly out of Milton.

AggieMike88 said:
You're near Eglin, right? Applying Google-fu found a club right in your back yard that looks worth of investigation

http://www.eglinaeroclub.com/. Entry and dues are CHEEAAAP!

The rental costs and instructor rates look really good for the area and fuel prices: http://www.eglinaeroclub.com/Aircraft.aspx

This might be a very good fit for you if you're current military.
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Is that the same as constant speed or are you talking about like what's on a 172??

JimNtexas said:
For under $60K please get a simple four cylinder fixed gear, fixed prop airplane! Trust me on this! Find a friendly A&P to supervise and you can do a huge amount of the required maintenance yourself.

Get your instrument rating in it. You don't need the kind of huge maintenance surprises that lurking in more complex GA airplanes!

Come down here to San Marcos Texas and get fixed price commercial and multi ratings at Redbird using their very nice sims and airplanes. Especially for multi-engine training their sims will save you a fortune.
Click to expand...
 
JimNtexas said:
Come down here to San Marcos Texas and get fixed price commercial and multi ratings at Redbird using their very nice sims and airplanes. Especially for multi-engine training their sims will save you a fortune.
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No kidding. I attended a WINGS seminar at ARTCsim (www.artcsim.com) last night and viewed their offerings and talked with the owner. Per hour prices for the various ones are CHEAP compared to the actual aircraft, even the Redbird they have.

They also have some multi-engine sims that are nice setups (one even has a real G1000 in it). I think I remember a quote of about $50/hr.
 
ltsheets said:
Is that the same as constant speed or are you talking about like what's on a 172??
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Fixed prop is like the 172's.

Fixed Gear/Fixed Prop aircraft are just fine to take you on your journey of initial time building, instrument training, the beginnings of your commercial rating, and beyond.

When you need the more expensive and complex aircraft, rent them.
 
i'd get a PA-28-161

950lbs useful load and about 110 knots cruise for a nice one with wheel pants on 8.5 gph

cheapest to maintain, insure and you can probably find one with a good 6 pack, dual nav/com and ADF for about 30k
 
ltsheets said:
I'm SORTA close to eglin. Actually about 50 mins to drive there from home compared to flying out of Milton (north of my house) which is about 25 mins from home. It's just a lot more convenient for evening flights and spur of the moment flights to fly out of Milton.
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Then keep looking in your area, or ask around Milton. This endeavor thrives on making good contacts and building a good network of folks who know someone who know someone.
 
Piper Archer?

dell30rb said:
i'd get a PA-28-161

950lbs useful load and about 110 knots cruise for a nice one with wheel pants on 8.5 gph

cheapest to maintain, insure and you can probably find one with a good 6 pack, dual nav/com and ADF for about 30k
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Also, can you guys explain the acronyms I keep seeing in searches like SMOH, SPOH, TTOH, etc?
 
He used economical and airplane in the same post!! :rofl::rofl:

A Warrior would be a nice plane to start with, but then I'm biased ;)

Mine is a -151 with the 160hp upgrade on the engine and we have a 430W. Cruise is a pretty honest 105kts and I can get 8 - 8.5 gph all day long.
 
Laught it up haha. I do own an offshore fishing boat so I understand the cost of maintenance. I know it's not a truly economical endevour, it's all perspective.

EppyGA said:
He used economical and airplane in the same post!! :rofl::rofl:

A Warrior would be a nice plane to start with, but then I'm biased ;)

Mine is a -151 with the 160hp upgrade on the engine and we have a 430W. Cruise is a pretty honest 105kts and I can get 8 - 8.5 gph all day long.
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ltsheets said:
Also, can you guys explain the acronyms I keep seeing in searches like SMOH, SPOH, TTOH, etc?
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SMOH: Time since major overhaul in hours
SPOH: Time since propellor overhaul in hours
TTOH: Not sure, perhaps total time to overhaul in hours (TBO would be a more common term if so)
TBO: Time between overhaul in hours
 
Ah those make since. So I'm guessing the SMOH is the most important figure to consider other than the total airframe time?
 
EppyGA said:
A Warrior would be a nice plane to start with, but then I'm biased ;)

Mine is a -151 with the 160hp upgrade on the engine and we have a 430W. Cruise is a pretty honest 105kts and I can get 8 - 8.5 gph all day long.
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That's a nice one to have for regional flying and tome building.
 
jesse said:
SMOH: Time since major overhaul in hours
SPOH: Time since propellor overhaul in hours
TTOH: Not sure, perhaps total time to overhaul in hours (TBO would be a more common term if so)
TBO: Time between overhaul in hours
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Left out

TTWE: Time To Wallet Empty :D
 
ltsheets said:
Laught it up haha. I do own an offshore fishing boat so I understand the cost of maintenance. I know it's not a truly economical endevour, it's all perspective.
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It is all perspective. I wasn't making fun of you, it's a time honored reply here.

We currently have four members in our LLC and we each pay $146 per month for fixed expenses and $47 per hour dry when we fly.
 
Haha well I hope that acronym never happens
 
so does the 47 per hr dry go into a MX fund or something??

EppyGA said:
It is all perspective. I wasn't making fun of you, it's a time honored reply here.

We currently have four members in our LLC and we each pay $146 per month for fixed expenses and $47 per hour dry when we fly.
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ltsheets said:
so does the 47 per hr dry go into a MX fund or something??
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Yes, we started out as a partnership between myself and another pilot. She is not flying currently and wanted to add more partners to lighten her expenses. I was taking care of everything and invoicing her for half on a quarterly basis.

We created an LLC and put the plane under the LLC and added two new members. There had not been an engine reserve prior so we used the majority of the new members shares to fund a reserve and are now adding to it.

Some of the money also goes to regular maintenance such as oil changes, annual, etc.
 
With the OP's stated goals and budget there is only one logical choice, the piper apache. Many, many people have followed the formula: buy an apache, fly it at 80kts and 4gph/side for 500 hours, then sell it to someone looking to do the same.
 
ltsheets said:
Laught it up haha. I do own an offshore fishing boat so I understand the cost of maintenance. I know it's not a truly economical endevour, it's all perspective.
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I feel your pain, Hatteras parts are just bigger airplane parts, cost is the same!:mad2:
 
Wow yeah I bet. I've seen how much big sportfishers cost, my buddy just bought a Cabo 31. My boat is much cheaper though, Cape Horn 24OS that is about to be chartered by a new friend of mine, thus paying for itself and paying my hopefully future airplane payment too.

N747JB said:
I feel your pain, Hatteras parts are just bigger airplane parts, cost is the same!:mad2:
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ltsheets said:
Wow yeah I bet. I've seen how much big sportfishers cost, my buddy just bought a Cabo 31. My boat is much cheaper though, Cape Horn 24OS that is about to be chartered by a new friend of mine, thus paying for itself and paying my hopefully future airplane payment too.
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Where do you keep it? We have ours in Destin. Good luck on the charter thing, I know it doesn't work well for airplanes, but not sure for boats. :dunno:
 
My back yard in Navarre for now. The capt who's going to be chartering it is going to keep it trailered in a secure storage yard in Navarre. Look me up next time you're down and fishing if you want some company. I don't get the opportunity to go out fishing on the bigger boats and I can certainly pull my weight on deck.
 
ltsheets said:
My back yard in Navarre for now. The capt who's going to be chartering it is going to keep it trailered in a secure storage yard in Navarre. Look me up next time you're down and fishing if you want some company. I don't get the opportunity to go out fishing on the bigger boats and I can certainly pull my weight on deck.
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His name isn't Henning is it? :rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
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