Starting the process of buying my first plane...advice needed

If TTAF doesn't matter, why is it the first item listed in for-sale ads?



I honestly don't know, maybe it is important for 50% of them out there? But I have flown some crap rentals with 4-5k Total, and some very nice and well maintained ones with 18k...

Not that you can tell the quality of the maint by the logbooks, but I would guess it is far more important than the number of hours on the airframe.
 
How about apples to apples that isolate the issue being discussed rather than off-the-wall comparisons? Like, say, if they have both been hangared and babied since new.

Whether you have figured it out or not, there's no question about the impact on value.

Never much figured that out for little GA planes, convention for the most part I suppose. Planes with life limited airframes, yeah, I understand, but with a little GA plane that has no end life on airframe, until you get to the extreme ends of the Bell Curve, it doesn't make a very big difference in prices I see, and is of very dubious value in determining condition. Which do you think would be worth more, identical planes 40 years old, one has 3500 hrs AF and has been on the Ramp at PMP its whole life. The other has 8500 hrs and has lived in hangar in Phoenix and a Hangar in Vegas and has been used as a commuter plane.

Which do you suspect will be more valuable, the better plane, less likely to cause you a major airframe and/or avionics repair bill in the next couple of years?
 
How about apples to apples that isolate the issue being discussed rather than off-the-wall comparisons? Like, say, if they have both been hangared and babied since new.

Whether you have figured it out or not, there's no question about the impact on value.


Equal airplanes buy the cheaper, prices the same too, buy the one with the lower time. It's not a Zero value figure, but the TTAF within the bulk of the Bell Curve has little value in determining the value of an unseen airplane because it is not a good indicator of condition which has a much larger ability to effect value and even safety. IOW, the TTAF would be way down on the list of deciding factors of which plane unaffected by life limits that I would choose.
 
Yeah, but your choices and approaches to value have been proven to contain some deviations from the norm.

The people with the money (those buying and those loaning so others can buy) are included in the group who think TTAF matters, at which point nobody else gets a vote.

Equal airplanes buy the cheaper, prices the same too, buy the one with the lower time. It's not a Zero value figure, but the TTAF within the bulk of the Bell Curve has little value in determining the value of an unseen airplane because it is not a good indicator of condition which has a much larger ability to effect value and even safety. IOW, the TTAF would be way down on the list of deciding factors of which plane unaffected by life limits that I would choose.
 
Just ran the NAAA evaluator on my plane. In current condition with 3500hrs TTAF it gives this:

ApproximatelyTwo-Thirds (66%) of Aircraft of this Make, Model, and Year will have a Estimated Value based on the Specified Data $98,377
When I bump up the hours to 7500 I get:

ApproximatelyTwo-Thirds (66%) of Aircraft of this Make, Model, and Year will have a Estimated Value based on the Specified Data $99,958
How do you like that!!! I ADDED 4000 hrs to the TTAF number and the value increased according to their valuator ADDED over $1500.
 
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Yeah, but your choices and approaches to value have been proven to contain some deviations from the norm.

The people with the money (those buying and those loaning so others can buy) are included in the group who think TTAF matters, at which point nobody else gets a vote.


That's fine, people can figure it how they like. I value condition above all because condition effects my operating costs. I'm not a dealer looking to score a profit on resale, I'm a user who wants to minimize my operating failures and expenses. TTAF will have no material effect in my operating costs, condition sure as hell will. Even in the bottom line end game when you count up the dollars at the end, you can easily spend greater than price spread between the AF value differential in repairs to keeping it Airworthy and in annual.

You can't fail an annual for TTAF but you sure can fail one for condition.
 
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Don't take this the wrong way OP...

But based on your questions, consider renting for a while and get to know some owners and their challenges maintaining their equipment.

Maybe join a club and get involved with how things break, why the break, and what they costs...

Mainly, just don't go buy something and not know what you are getting into.
 
They also tend to be newer than 1967, but not by a hell of a lot...


Let's face it, it was all Marketting

Yes. Like anybody needs electric trim on a Cherokee. Just a PITA for maintenance, while adding no useful advantages.
 
Don't take this the wrong way OP...

But based on your questions, consider renting for a while and get to know some owners and their challenges maintaining their equipment.

Maybe join a club and get involved with how things break, why the break, and what they costs...

Mainly, just don't go buy something and not know what you are getting into.

Hire someone who knows what they are doing works quite well, most people wouldn't consider buying a house without a realtor.
 
Yes. Like anybody needs electric trim on a Cherokee. Just a PITA for maintenance, while adding no useful advantages.

It does add the value of ****ing you off, when it only works in one direction....
 
Am I completely wrong or is a piper archer a twin engine??

The only thing complex about an Archer is.... well nothing is complex about an Archer. Fixed gear & Fixed prop.... pull nose up houses get smaller...point the nose down houses get bigger.
 
And the critical elements of obtaining value that you conveniently close to ignore were?

Just ran the NAAA evaluator on my plane. In current condition with 3500hrs TTAF it gives this:

When I bump up the hours to 7500 I get:

How do you like that!!! I ADDED 4000 hrs to the TTAF number and the value increased according to their valuator ADDED over $1500.
 
And the critical elements of obtaining value that you conveniently close to ignore were?


None, First time I filled out the NAAA evaluator with the current stats of 3500 TT, 150 SFRM on #1, 350 SMOH on #2, 100hrs on the props and the equipment in the panel and it spit out the $98k figure. I went down to the Airframe TT and changed 3500 hrs to 7500 hrs and asked to recalculate and it spit out the $99k figure.
 
Ah, I'm thinking the "cherokee" i thought I saw with wheel fairings that was doing touch and gos tonight at the airport might have in fact been an Archer.

A piper Archer is a Newer Cherokee, 180 HP... Same as a newer cherokee...
 
Why don't you call the nice man at NAAA and ask him what you might have missed? I'm a member of the association and have his direct number if you'd like to discuss it with him.

And how could you possibly believe any valuation service that thinks your airplane is worth more than the ~$50 grand the exposure to the biggest airplane market in the world proved it's worth?

None, First time I filled out the NAAA evaluator with the current stats of 3500 TT, 150 SFRM on #1, 350 SMOH on #2, 100hrs on the props and the equipment in the panel and it spit out the $98k figure. I went down to the Airframe TT and changed 3500 hrs to 7500 hrs and asked to recalculate and it spit out the $99k figure.
 
Why don't you call the nice man at NAAA and ask him what you might have missed? I'm a member of the association and have his direct number if you'd like to discuss it with him.

And how could you possibly believe any valuation service that thinks your airplane is worth more than the ~$50 grand the exposure to the biggest airplane market in the world proved it's worth?


Missed? What's on the NAAA evaluator to miss? Go to TAP, you fill in the boxes and that's that.
 

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And what do you have when you're done with the paint-by-number exercise?

Missed? What's on the NAAA evaluator to miss? Go to TAP, you fill in the boxes and that's that.
 
And what do you have when you're done with the paint-by-number exercise?


We had an exercise that demonstrated the difference that a professional valuation organization puts on the TTAF differences in a GA plane with no life limits. You said that professionals put a high value on it so I went to check what NAAA, an accepted group of industry professionals thought about it, they seem to agree with me. Now of course, NAAA may be as stupid as I, you may want to run on over there and straighten them out and show them how to set values for TTAF correctly.
 
And when you call the president of NAAA and tell him of your findings, what is he going to say in response?

I didn't realize you were a member of the organization, haven't seen your name on the list or run into you at the required meetings and seminars.

We had an exercise that demonstrated the difference that a professional valuation organization puts on the TTAF differences in a GA plane with no life limits. You said that professionals put a high value on it so I went to check what NAAA, an accepted group of industry professionals thought about it, they seem to agree with me. Now of course, NAAA may be as stupid as I, you may want to run on over there and straighten them out and show them how to set values for TTAF correctly.
 
And when you call the president of NAAA and tell him of your findings, what is he going to say in response?

I didn't realize you were a member of the organization, haven't seen your name on the list or run into you at the required meetings and seminars.


Dude, why would I call the President of NAAA? What do you think his response would be? "Sorry, our machine on the TAP website doesn't work."? Why do I have to be a member o0f the organization? I used the NAAA Evaluator that I have access to with my TAP subscription. I plugged in the numbers, I changed the TTAF numbers only on like planes as you stipulated for comparison and selected an aircraft I know has no life limit issues on the airframe.

The NAAA evaluator put out the numbers it put out. If you have a problem with that why are you telling me? You tell them their program is junk and they don't know what they're talking about, you're the one with the problem with the numbers they produced.

So, when You call the President of NAAA and ask him why an AFTT more than doubling on a 310 didn't devalue their evaluation, what do you think he will tell you?
 
The same thing he would tell you. Tough shlt, it's obviously a mistake and the system doesn't always work. But it's free, so knock yourself out.

Dude, why would I call the President of NAAA? What do you think his response would be? "Sorry, our machine on the TAP website doesn't work."? Why do I have to be a member o0f the organization? I used the NAAA Evaluator that I have access to with my TAP subscription. I plugged in the numbers, I changed the TTAF numbers only on like planes as you stipulated for comparison and selected an aircraft I know has no life limit issues on the airframe.

The NAAA evaluator put out the numbers it put out. If you have a problem with that why are you telling me? You tell them their program is junk and they don't know what they're talking about, you're the one with the problem with the numbers they produced.

So, when You call the President of NAAA and ask him why an AFTT more than doubling on a 310 didn't devalue their evaluation, what do you think he will tell you?
 
I'm gonna guess your at Whiting Field?

Eglin aero club is just about gonna be the best deal around. Big runways cheap rentals good staff.
Look up the Pensacola Navy Flying Club. I haven't dealt with them but that might be a shorter drive for you than eglin.
When you get a commercial come and tow gliders :)

Eglin CAP... eh... as a cadet I can tell you its mostly good people with a few bad eggs and we don't do much flying.
PM meif you have any more specific questions about the area.
 
I just did a:
1975 180, gave me $78,509 at 7500 and $80,205 at 3500
2000 PA-28-180 is $98,428 at 7500 and $99,865 at 3500
1977 172N is $37,461 at 3500, $36, 875 with 7500, $36,540 at 12,500 and $36,500 for 16,500 hrs.

All I did is went into their default planes and added changed only the numbers in AFTT. These are the number differences I was expecting from AFTT changes in these planes and I can run more and expect I'll see much the same result, because people who evaluate equipment rather than numbers understand that time is largely irrelevant in these components, you have to go by condition.
 
Do you understand that the National Aircraft Appraisers Association consists of a nationwide network of members who professionally appraise airplanes? Do also understand that the information published on TAP is a different (and dumbed-down) version than the one that NAAA appraisers use as a starting point (rather than the ending point that you unsuccessfully tried to attain) for reporting value of any particular airplane?

I just did a:
1975 180, gave me $78,509 at 7500 and $80,205 at 3500
2000 PA-28-180 is $98,428 at 7500 and $99,865 at 3500
1977 172N is $37,461 at 3500, $36, 875 with 7500, $36,540 at 12,500 and $36,500 for 16,500 hrs.

Were these value numbers impacted by changes to airframe condition due to the wear and tear incurred during the extra use on the frame?

All I did is went into their default planes and added changed only the numbers in AFTT. These are the number differences I was expecting from AFTT changes in these planes and I can run more and expect I'll see much the same result, because people who evaluate equipment rather than numbers understand that time is largely irrelevant in these components, you have to go by condition.
They also understand the more use that is imposed on machinery the more money will be required to keep it in airworthy condition, which is why any older asset (plane, truck, boat, train) will be worth less.
 
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Do you understand that the National Aircraft Appraisers Association consists of a nationwide network of members who professionally appraise airplanes? Do also understand that the information published on TAP is a different (and dumbed-down) version than the one that NAAA appraisers use as a starting point (rather than the ending point that you unsuccessfully tried to attain) for reporting value of any particular airplane?


They also understand the more use that is imposed on machinery the more money will be required to keep it in airworthy condition l


I understand all that, it's you that seems not to, you just look at numbers without understanding what they really represent. We are talking AFTT numbers on simple aircraft. Please tell me what parts of the airframe wear out with flying on a 172? Their all just nickle and dime parts that get replaced along the way on annuals.

Now, when I enter our 172N at 7500 hours and score the airframe a 1 I get $33,984 and I score it a 10 I get $38,718, a $4804 difference. That compares in a difference in valuation of $961 for 13,000hrs of airframe total time. That suggests to me that NAAA considers Condition a much greater factor in evaluating than TTAF as well. It seems that only you disagree with the organization you belong to.
 
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Do you think the drop in airframe value comes from the wear and tear associated with use or that it is a function of sitting in the hangar?

If you were engaged to appraise two Cessna T-210's on the same airport that were almost identical other than that one had been owned by a fastidious local attorney who flew it himself to and from his vacation home about 150 hours per year, and the other had been kept in a rental fleet and flown about 350 hours per year, which airframe would you expect to be in better shape, and why? What would be the logical items you would look at to determine whether you were appraising a well-kept personal airplane vs a ragged-out rental?

I understand all that, it's you that seems not to, you just look at numbers without understanding what they really represent. We are talking AFTT numbers on simple aircraft. Please tell me what parts of the airframe wear out with flying on a 172? Their all just nickle and dime parts that get replaced along the way on annuals.

Now, when I enter our 172N at 7500 hours and score the airframe a 1 I get $33,984 and I score it a 10 I get $38,718, a $4804 difference. That compares in a difference in valuation of $961 for 13,000hrs of airframe total time. That suggests to me that NAAA considers Condition a much greater factor in evaluating than TTAF as well. It seems that only you disagree with the organization you belong to.
 
So... I have never owned a plane, but I am just about to close on my first (and hopefully not last). So my advice, if you will, is from the perspective of someone in your position, just a little bit further down the road.

First, take a breath, and have patience. The right plane will show up eventually, but it could be tomorrow and it could be in a year. Don't rush yourself, don't fall in love with any plane until you actually own it, and don't push yourself to buy something, anything, just because buying can be such a frustrating process sometimes.

Don't shortcut the buying process. Do a solid prebuy, no matter how cool things look, how great the last annual seems, how fantastic the compressions were just a month ago, how nice and honest the mechanic who takes care of the plane appears to be, and so on. Get the title search and 337s and READ them. In fact, insisting on using a reputable title/escrow company is probably a good idea.

I will not repeat the mantra I've heard here that you should not focus on purchase price because it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Psychologically, that is quite wrong, because at some point you'll need to sell the plane and most humans aren't very good at being rational when they take a perceived loss. Just remember that as soon as you get the title, you are the next person to sell the plane down the road. This advice is super corrosive because you also hear things like "I resold for more than I paid". If you believe all this stuff, you will not be a happy owner.

Be really, really comfortable with your budget. What I mean by this is, live, dream, imagine the scenario where you buy the plane, and on the very next day, you lose your job or half your client base or the economy tanks again or something bad like that happens. Be really really honest with yourself. Can you handle it? Is the plane going to add so much stress to your life at that point that it would be too expensive to own? Because it can kill you otherwise. You end up cutting corners, and a catastrophic failure is right around the corner. I could fairly easily buy a $100k bird but it would make me nervous about what would happen if, so I am paying a lot less than that for my upcoming bird.

Count on an extra few thousand of expenses immediately after you buy. You will want your new to you plane to look nice, feel nice, and do things the way you want them. You are buying a 40 year old machine, and a lot of stuff is going to be that old. The previous owner cared about certain things but you will likely care about others that they didn't. These may not be airworthy items, but you will end up spending some cash unless you're inhuman.

Since you will be doing some cosmetic work anyway, focus on mechanicals. A good engine, good prop, no rust, solid plane that looks ratty is much better than any alternative that involves a compromise. I would much rather an owner that cut corners on replacing the carpet than doing oil analysis. This may seem obvious but I have learned that it is not.

Think of the purchase as a luxury, even if you're buying it for work.

I have more, but this is getting longer than I thought.
 
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Do you think the drop in airframe value comes from the wear and tear associated with use or that it is a function of sitting in the hangar?

If you were engaged to appraise two Cessna T-210's on the same airport that were almost identical other than that one had been owned by a fastidious local attorney who flew it himself to and from his vacation home about 150 hours per year, and the other had been kept in a rental fleet and flown about 350 hours per year, which airframe would you expect to be in better shape, and why? What would be the logical items you would look at to determine whether you were appraising a well-kept personal airplane vs a ragged-out rental?

You just added in other factors besides TTAF, get it? It sounds like you are back pedaling after trying some more of you bull**** on me and got called. I said the TTAF number in the add on its own ment very little, it was condition that mattered. When you first read a listing, how do you determine what kind of use those hours were? You can't can you? Therefor you do not have the supporting information required to put a value to that number. In the end, you have to go look at the plane to accurately determine what that number represents. Until you have at least a conversation with the owner, the TTAF number has very little value as it is just a single component of a multi variable equation.
 
Now, when I enter our 172N at 7500 hours and score the airframe a 1 I get $33,984 and I score it a 10 I get $38,718, a $4804 difference. That compares in a difference in valuation of $961 for 13,000hrs of airframe total time. That suggests to me that NAAA considers Condition a much greater factor in evaluating than TTAF as well. It seems that only you disagree with the organization you belong to.

Thanks for the example.

I ended up completely ignoring airframe hours in my buying process. I have flown more planes with 10000+ hours than those with less than 5000, and couldn't find a noticeable difference. You pay less for the high hours when you buy, and charge less when you sell, so it can be a good way to get more plane for your dollars. Many high time planes come from operations that took good care of them (135) maintenance wise, and stuff got constantly replaced and kept in good shape (flight school planes may be a little different, I don't know).
 
Well I'm actually stationed at Hurlburt and live in Navarre. Thanks for the info and I might be in touch in the future.

I'm gonna guess your at Whiting Field?

Eglin aero club is just about gonna be the best deal around. Big runways cheap rentals good staff.
Look up the Pensacola Navy Flying Club. I haven't dealt with them but that might be a shorter drive for you than eglin.
When you get a commercial come and tow gliders :)

Eglin CAP... eh... as a cadet I can tell you its mostly good people with a few bad eggs and we don't do much flying.
PM meif you have any more specific questions about the area.
 
Well I'm actually stationed at Hurlburt and live in Navarre. Thanks for the info and I might be in touch in the future.

OK I read Milton somewhere so guessed Whiting. Another option is Destin they have a small school (I know one of their CFIs) I dont know the prices though. Crestview can be another choice. Crestview is a bit out of your way though.
 
Responding on a request in private messaging, here are a few more thoughts. It feels like there's a lot more that I can say about it, but it's all really just based on my experience thus far as a first time buyer. A lot of people here have a lot more experience.

Get to know what you're looking for. I mean, really know. Read owner forums about quirks in the type and model, costs, and so on. This is hard to do if you don't narrow your search, so by doing this you WILL narrow your search. That's a good thing. I ended up with so much knowledge of my two leading types (see below) that it equaled what I had to learn to get my PPL - and I'm glad for it, because I feel like I am on much firmer ground and know what to expect.

Also figure out what you're willing to compromise on and what you won't. For me, the primary requirement was having a 6-seater and excellent engine/prop. That helped filter searches more than you can imagine. Nice avionics/GPS and club seating were important but not a must (the plane I am buying has a decent panel but not club seating). I decided I didn't care about airframe hours or the status of the interior, except the seats themselves. Paint needed to be OK, but not great. And so on. This gave me flexibility in looking at prices. Do your own gut check, because it will really help you stay focused and not get distracted. Note that I didn't look at particular models, but rather created parameters that could fit many different planes. In a strange twist, I ended up with a bifurcated search, looking at A36s and Cherokee 6s at the same time, and settling on the latter. It sounds odd, but when you think about it, the A36 is the "nice to have" plane that has it all but costs a lot, and the C6 is the "minimum requirements" plane that has what I need and costs a lot less.

I would recommend getting a buyer's agent. If there is one thing that has been worth every penny in this entire process and then some, it's this. The convenience of having someone do all the legwork of following up on a plane has been tremendous, and right now as I am closing, having one is truly a gift. I would be overwhelmed otherwise. And I won't even mention the two planes he saved me from buying by utilizing his personal network to find information that I would never have discovered myself. In one of these cases, I think he essentially saved my life. I know there is a ban on advertising in the forum, but I really do want to mention his name because I'm so grateful - it's Chris Moody from Moody Pacific Aviation. Truly an incredible guy.

Get a feel for the market yourself. What I mean by this is get acquainted with all the major sites (Tradeaplane, Controller, ASO, Barnstormers) and others too (Aviationclassifieds, Craigslist etc), as well as eBay. Create a custom search for the kind of plane you want, then run it regularly every weekend for 2-3 months, until you get to the point where you are recognizing the planes you've seen before and can even say when their prices have been adjusted and by how much. You will also start to recognize patterns, and get a really good sense for the real value of these things. There was a point in the summer where I could pretty much tell you about every single Cherokee 6/300 for sale in the country listed under $80K and searchable online. Get used to and expect that many sellers are going to get upset with you because you are "lowballing" them even though by being highly informed you probably have a much better idea of their plane's value than they do, don't take it personally, move on. The corollary is of course don't get attached to ANY plane before you have an agreed-upon purchase price, because the process is highly emotional and it doesn't matter how reasoned you may be, you need two to tango. I honestly would not want to be in the shoes of the folks I have spoken to who have bought their planes in the 05-07 market and have seen the value of their planes plummet 50% or more. But also be a reasonable buyer. Don't be nitpicky on stuff that doesn't matter, and let the other side win too. Nobody likes to get nickle and dimed.

Keep in mind that this is a buyer's market, so right now you have the upper hand. It's going to stay that way for at least 2-3 more years, so plan to buy for 5 and then sell when it's a seller's market again. It can be an uncomfortable process, so get prepared for a lot of uncomfortable discussions, but having an agent takes most of the pain out of this.

And... don't become that seller down the road.

Make sure you have a plan post-purchase. Have a shop lined up, ramp space somewhere, insurance and all that jazz. Just be aware of all of it and have a sense of what you're going to do, because trust me, when the purchase happens, you will have a LOT to deal with already.

Understand how insurance works and what pitfalls to avoid. If it's a new airframe for you, remember you will need to have an instructor lined up to check you out on it that your insurance company will accept - most likely in another part of the country. If you do all this yourself, how will you get a mechanic you can trust over there to do the prebuy?

If something smells fishy, MOVE ON. Really. A price that is too good to be true is, period, and there are all sorts of things like that going on. 20% under vref is not too good to be true in this market, for someone who needs out of their plane for financial reasons. 40% most likely is, when someone is that desperate then you can also expect that they had been cutting corners in the invisible places on a plane that can kill you later on. You will learn these ranges and guidelines for the type you're looking for when you educate yourself in the manner I have described above.

OK, gotta go deal with the kids. More later if anybody wants it.
 
Thanks for that in depth post. Great insight and advice.
 
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