Starting IFR and looking for some advice

[tehmightypirate]

So, I'm beginning my IFR training and my plan is to do some time in a 152 with the steam gauges but the majority in a G1000 cessna 172sp. All good there (172 is only $125 wet!) and I've been doing self-study for the past year or so. I would say that I have a fairly good head start on my training.

Now, my question is this: I've been going up with an instructor who is very laid back. He doesn't seem to take initiative on any lesson plans while I've been switching over to the G1000. This is fine because I'm a youngster and all the buttons and fancy doodads (which I'm quickly finding don't make me a better pilot, as I'm sure many people already knew) all make sense to me. Within an hour or two I was comfortable. I expect much of my IFR training will be this way we're I mostly just need someone to hold my hand whilst I fly down an ILS or VOR.

Now, that doesn't mean this instructor is lax. I missed a heading in a steep turn and he made sure that I knew about it. He makes sure that I hold to the PTS standards and procedures.

That said, where I've done so much self-study I'm worried that I may get to overconfident as knowing how to do it is one thing, doing it accurately and quickly is another. It will be easy on my training with this instructor and he'll be very good at working with me if I want to practice something more but I suspect I'll have to be the one saying that I want to try that again.

Now, a few more notes. This instructor is a new CFII, a professor by trade, and is available the most out of the instructors. He's also one of the few in the club checked out on the G1000. Hence why I went with him for the G1000 training.

So, my question is this: do you think this instructor is a good fit who won't leave me unprepared for either the practical or the real deal after my ticket? Or should I try someone else who might be a little tougher but less available or maybe not as good for me?

Note: I'm not unhappy with my instructor. He's good and very easy to get along with. I'm simply afraid I'm not getting the most bang for my buck.

 

[flyingron]

If you have all the money in the world and are in no particular hurry, by all means let an instructor with no sense of a plan lead you through the very complex world of IFR training. There's no excuse for a professional educator not to have a plan.

 

[jordane93]

find a new instructor. if the guy cant even plan out lessons for you, how do you think you'll get through training. that is very unprofessional. or have a talk with him and tell him politely of course that your serious about getting your instrument rating and need him to plan out lessons for you

 

[ChitDisturber]

Now, that doesn't mean this instructor is lax. I missed a heading in a steep turn and he made sure that I knew about it. He makes sure that I hold to the PTS standards and procedures.

Well seems like he is tough enough, if he is teaching you to spec and holding you to spec, what else do you want?

If you get along with him and he has a teaching style that works with your learning style, i.e. you are absorbing the material he is teaching, I'd say he's a good match.


As for the lesson plans, do you feel like you're moving forwards?

I'm guessing if this guy is a professor by trade he probably knows how to teach a subject, perhaps not as paint by color as a inexperienced CFII, but I'm sure by his other job he should have that aspect down.

 

[SbestCFII]

Do an accelerated IFR course. There are many out there, some that come to you and provide training in your plane (i.e. PIC and AFITs), and others that will host you and provide instrument training in their own suitable aircraft OBXFlight, Semper-fiaviation). Check out the flight training section in Trade-A-plane for others and do an online search.

 

[frfly172]

With all the self studying you have done the instructor may be taking it for granted that you have covered the material. I would sit down with the instructor and discuss what you are not comfortable with and ask him to work up a lesson plan. Since he is a new instructor he can probably use the feed back.

 

[AggieMike88]

[insert a Cap'n Ron copy/paste post in 5...4...3...2...] just razzing Ron... he's a good resource for questions like this

 

[tehmightypirate]

There's no excuse for a professional educator not to have a plan.

Point well taken.

or have a talk with him and tell him politely of course that your serious about getting your instrument rating and need him to plan out lessons for you

I think this might be the way to go.

Well seems like he is tough enough, if he is teaching you to spec and holding you to spec, what else do you want?

Well, that's the problem; he's adequate but I'm wondering if I'm missing out.

As for the lesson plans, do you feel like you're moving forwards?

I'm guessing if this guy is a professor by trade he probably knows how to teach a subject, perhaps not as paint by color as a inexperienced CFII, but I'm sure by his other job he should have that aspect down.

I feel I'm moving forward well enough but it's mostly at my own direction.

Do an accelerated IFR course. There are many out there, some that come to you and provide training in your plane (i.e. PIC and AFITs), and others that will host you and provide instrument training in their own suitable aircraft OBXFlight, Semper-fiaviation). Check out the flight training section in Trade-A-plane for others and do an online search.

Definitely not going to be cost effective for me and, really, what's the rush?

With all the self studying you have done the instructor may be taking it for granted that you have covered the material. I would sit down with the instructor and discuss what you are not comfortable with and ask him to work up a lesson plan. Since he is a new instructor he can probably use the feed back.

Great suggestion.

Thanks for all the great input everyone, I'm glad I posted this. I think that, for now, I'll continue as is and see how I feel after a few more lessons with my current instructor. However, I'm definitely going to get him to sit down and draw up a syllabus to follow and make sure that he comes to each lesson with a series of goals in mind and tasks that he wants to throw my way.

As ron keating said, he's definitely new to the double-I and could probably use the feedback. I'll (politely) suggest that we take a more focused approach to my instruction (using a syllabus) and, as I've done a lot of self-study, I'll suggest that he actively try throwing plenty of curve-balls at me so that we can be thorough and so he can also help me find my weak points.

That said, if anyone has any more suggestions or thoughts please let me know. I'd also be curious how other people felt about their instructors. Were they too easy, too hard? Too controlling or to lenient?

 

[perezam]

I am at the very beginning stages of going for the IFR. Can anyone recommend either the Gleims/King School/Sportys/"Other" for the ground school and written prep? Looking for any pro/cons that can help me make my decision on which one to purchase. Thanks for any help.

 

[tehmightypirate]

I am at the very beginning stages of going for the IFR. Can anyone recommend either the Gleims/King School/Sportys/"Other" for the ground school and written prep? Looking for any pro/cons that can help me make my decision on which one to purchase. Thanks for any help.

I'm using a combination of the Jeppesen Instrument/Commercial textbook http://jeppdirect.jeppesen.com/product_details.jsp?id=prod915, the FAA instrument procedures handbook http://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...t_procedures_handbook/media/FAA-H-8261-1A.pdf, the FAA instrument flying handbook http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/FAA-H-8083-15B.pdf, the FAA pilots handbook http://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...ation/pilot_handbook/media/FAA-H-8083-25A.pdf, an older Jeppesen IFR written test prep guide book, and then various blogs and articles on the internet about various topics on IFR.

Like I said, lots of self-study.

All those are free except for the test prep and the textbook I have. They are good but old(er). I like the format of the Jeppesen books and passed my written on my private using Jeppesen products only missing one question. I'd recommend them though obviously the newer ones may be lacking on some things like RNAV and modern equipment (though the FAA handbooks cover those quite nicely).

 

[poadeleted20]

[insert a Cap'n Ron copy/paste post in 5...4...3...2...] just razzing Ron... he's a good resource for questions like this

Sorry I'm late -- long day yesterday and didn't get home until late. Now to the question at hand...

One of the problems I had with many of my colleagues at the university is that almost none of them had a day's worth of training in how to teach. About the only folks who did were the instructors in the aviation program (all with CFI's) and the folks in the Education Department who really know this. So, don't expect someone to be good instructor just s/he's a professor by trade -- s/he may have that position because of his/her technical knowledge and research grantsmanship, not because of any skill in the classroom. If this particular CFI isn't using any sort of organized syllabus, and doesn't have a plan for each lesson (at least in his head, if not on paper), that's not a good sign.

My suggestion at this point is to sit down with your instructor can discuss your concerns. Ask him about how well his system has worked in the past. He may be more organized than you think, but just isn't showing you his plan. If you still don't feel comfortable, that would be the time to find an instructor whose teaching style fits more with your learning style.

 

[SCCutler]

...

My suggestion at this point is to sit down with your instructor can discuss your concerns. Ask him about how well his system has worked in the past. He may be more organized than you think, but just isn't showing you his plan. If you still don't feel comfortable, that would be the time to find an instructor whose teaching style fits more with your learning style.

Exactly, this.

Just because he has not told you his lesson plan, does not mean he hasn't got one. Ask - it's a courteous thing to do - and you may find all is well. Or maybe not. But either way, you'll have a better idea what's up and can adjust your plans accordingly.

 

[tehmightypirate]

Exactly, this.

Just because he has not told you his lesson plan, does not mean he hasn't got one. Ask - it's a courteous thing to do - and you may find all is well. Or maybe not. But either way, you'll have a better idea what's up and can adjust your plans accordingly.

Thanks guys, this is exactly why I posted this. The concensus that I've gotten (and my conclusion) is that a number of things could be at play: new double i, not prepared yet, new student and he wants to see where I am at, newer plane, etc.

So, I'm with you guys that I need to sit down with my instructor and get a plan in place that we can both work towards. After that, if he sticks to it and things are going well then we are good. Otherwise then I should start looking elsewhere.

It's definitely a good suggestion that he may have just not shown me a lesson plan yet but I think he doesn't have one. But that may work in my favor because if I work on one with him then I can tailor it to my needs but also get the ball rolling with my instructor, which may be all he needs.

 

[ChitDisturber]

I am at the very beginning stages of going for the IFR. Can anyone recommend either the Gleims/King School/Sportys/"Other" for the ground school and written prep? Looking for any pro/cons that can help me make my decision on which one to purchase. Thanks for any help.

Just get the King IFR program, that plus a good instructor are all you need.

King is the industry standard for a good reason, I've used them for PPL-ATP. Ive had my students 90% self study using the King videos and practice test for PPL-CPL, never had a written or oral failed (which is what those programs teach) and thats been the case wry enough guys to earn my CFI gold seal a few times over.

 

[AggieMike88]

Just get the King IFR program, that plus a good instructor are all you need.

King is the industry standard for a good reason, I've used them for PPL-ATP. Ive had my students 90% self study using the King videos and practice test for PPL-CPL, never had a written or oral failed (which is what those programs teach) and thats been the case wry enough guys to earn my CFI gold seal a few times over.

Having viewed the King online school (test prep) and some others, I'd beg to differ on "just get the King IFR program". IMO, this just skims the surface teaching you the test and very little of the theory, logic, and "reason for" the material and information you need to learn for the rating.

After viewing several offerings, and hearing from Ron L. and others about Jepp's online learning system, I took advantage of the discount Jepp was offering at Summit. I've been through the first 3 chapters of it and find the method of presenting the information superior to the others. And the textbook they sell is a good follow up to provide a deeper level of knowledge.

In a nutshell, which system (Sporty's, King, Jepp, Garmin, Dauntless, Sneezy, Dopey, Doc) is a choice based on if you just want to pass the test, or if you really want to know the material. For me I chose the latter and am glad Señor Levy pointed out the Jepp material to me.

 

[Theboys]

I like the accelerated ifr plan. I messed around after the written with some simulated instrument, but couldn't get any instructor pinned down to take me thru at the pace I wanted. I wanted to immerse myself and learn it. Met a now, friend on this site who did exactly what I was looking for. It was very reasonable and he furnished everything. Got it done, took the practical and used it the next day breaking thru a cloud layer and a GPS approach.....Priceless.

 

[ChitDisturber]

Having viewed the King online school (test prep) and some others, I'd beg to differ on "just get the King IFR program". IMO, this just skims the surface teaching you the test and very little of the theory, logic, and "reason for" the material and information you need to learn for the rating.

Thats where the good CFII come in.
There is such a thing as too much when it come to studying.


I train to the PTS/test first, then I start teaching real world ops, this is hard for most IIs as they don't have any realworld knowledge, just stuff they read.

 

[Ghery]

I am at the very beginning stages of going for the IFR. Can anyone recommend either the Gleims/King School/Sportys/"Other" for the ground school and written prep? Looking for any pro/cons that can help me make my decision on which one to purchase. Thanks for any help.

Just get the King IFR program, that plus a good instructor are all you need.

King is the industry standard for a good reason, I've used them for PPL-ATP. Ive had my students 90% self study using the King videos and practice test for PPL-CPL, never had a written or oral failed (which is what those programs teach) and thats been the case wry enough guys to earn my CFI gold seal a few times over.

The King classes are aimed at getting you ready to pass the written exam. Nothing more. For that I think they are excellent. I used them and got 100% on the PP written and 97% on the IR written. That said, you may not like their style (I can tolerate it, especially when it works for me). They also have videos that will walk you through a typical check ride. I've found that useful, as well. YMMV.

 

[coma24]

Be careful about learning only how to pass the test. Many people do that and then find themselves unprepared to actually use their rating in the real world. Months go by, they turn into rust buckets and before you know it, they're out of currency.

Make sure you truly become comfortable with filing and picking up clearances during your training. Don't do every flight under VFR, only shooting practice approaches. Instead, make sure you're picking up clearances and try to fly in the system as much as possible.

I found most of my training consisted of an unhealthy obsession with shooting approaches and not enough on the big picture of how it all works, with lots of end to end IFR flights.

I fly in the system quite a bit now. A typical IFR flight consists of some IMC, but mostly VMC above a cloud deck up at 10-12k, then a descent through some clouds, then either an instrument approach, or a visual with an early cancellation to free up the airspace.

The notion of going up and shooting 6+ approaches in a single flight really is more of a training exercise, and it's exhausting. I have a friend who put his IFR training on hold because he became convinced that IFR was all about shooting approaches in crappy weather.

 

[ChitDisturber]

Be careful about learning only how to pass the test. Many people do that and then find themselves unprepared to actually use their rating in the real world.
.

That's what it's for, it gets you through the written and the regs/rote part of the oral....the rest of the checkride you get from your CFI giving you mock rides.

As for the real world knowledge, for that you need a instructor that has REAL world (non-flight school) experience, like a freight dog who CFIs on the side, that can be hard to find, don't just think you can order a book of amazon and learn that type of stuff.

Your CFIs first goal is to get you to PTS/test spec, after that they should be teaching you about real world and IMC, that is if your II has any realworld stuff to teach.

 

[Henning]

Having viewed the King online school (test prep) and some others, I'd beg to differ on "just get the King IFR program". IMO, this just skims the surface teaching you the test and very little of the theory, logic, and "reason for" the material and information you need to learn for the rating.

After viewing several offerings, and hearing from Ron L. and others about Jepp's online learning system, I took advantage of the discount Jepp was offering at Summit. I've been through the first 3 chapters of it and find the method of presenting the information superior to the others. And the textbook they sell is a good follow up to provide a deeper level of knowledge.

In a nutshell, which system (Sporty's, King, Jepp, Garmin, Dauntless, Sneezy, Dopey, Doc) is a choice based on if you just want to pass the test, or if you really want to know the material. For me I chose the latter and am glad Señor Levy pointed out the Jepp material to me.

I used and liked the Jeppesen book as well. Combined with Gliem for the written and a week of flying with Satan as my CFII (I never knew what our plan was, but we flew 8 hrs a day in all weather all cross country and did everything required plus some in real world conditions that week) I came out of it very well versed and prepared for my ride.

 

[airborne]

Go take a few rides with the head Instructor in your school. Someone who has or does fly professionally in the commercial world.

A professor is the last person I would want as a CFII. His laid back and unorganized approach is simply a reflection of his time in his insulated Ivory Tower world of higher education. No deadlines, no measure of success, no pressure to perform on a schedule, no regard for the money leaking out of your wallet.

Sorry for the rant, but two kids through college has opened my eyes to the ridiculous pervasive waste within supposedly higher education...

 

[tehmightypirate]

Go take a few rides with the head Instructor in your school. Someone who has or does fly professionally in the commercial world.

A professor is the last person I would want as a CFII. His laid back and unorganized approach is simply a reflection of his time in his insulated Ivory Tower world of higher education. No deadlines, no measure of success, no pressure to perform on a schedule, no regard for the money leaking out of your wallet.

Sorry for the rant, but two kids through college has opened my eyes to the ridiculous pervasive waste within supposedly higher education...

I know exactly what you mean. However, as this is a club plane owned by the University and my current instructor is the faculty advisor of the club he is effectively the "head cfii". Now, that said, there are a few commercial cfii pilots who take advantage of the cheap club rates and also offer lessons on the side but some are also from academia and the others are less available. One instructor I had for my biannual was prefect but he disappears for months at a time for work (air national guard pilot).