Starter recommendations?

[ArrowFlyer86]

Any recommendations for replacement starters for a '72 Piper Arrow 2?
I think I currently have a Prestolite MZ 4218 (installed all the way back in '93).
It seems a lot of people move to Sky-Tec but wondering if there's any other thoughts on the best starter to get?

 

[asicer]

There's a couple of different SkyTec models. For a Lycoming 4cyl, I believe the 149NL is generally accepted as the best trade-off.

 

[Clip4]

While some owners love them, my experience is you are not going to long service life with them.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

I would look at B&C lightweight starters, which for you is probably the BC315.

 

[RyanB]

Skytec NL - you won’t be disappointed.

 

[Dan Thomas]

There's a couple of different SkyTec models. For a Lycoming 4cyl, I believe the 149NL is generally accepted as the best trade-off.

The NL series are good starters. I had the best life out of them in the flight school, where that engine gets started almost every hour.

But one has to watch the "149" business. That's the number of teeth in the engine's ring gear, and there are some engines with 122 teeth. Same diameter gear, so if you use the wrong starter, the gears don't mesh properly and they wear out too fast. From the Hartzell/SkyTec Application information page:

 

[Dana]

In general, I believe the 122 tooth gear was mostly used on the older smaller models up through the 320, and the 149 on larger engines, 360 and up. But it's not universal, so one has to check.

 

[asicer]

Yeah, I probably should have added "360" to "Lycoming 4cyl", which is what I would have guessed for '72 Arrow.

 

[mandm]

Any recommendations for replacement starters for a '72 Piper Arrow 2?
I think I currently have a Prestolite MZ 4218 (installed all the way back in '93).
It seems a lot of people move to Sky-Tec but wondering if there's any other thoughts on the best starter to get?

I believe I got the Sky-Tec when my old one was working when it felt like it, the Sky-Tec works everytime, I’m happy.

 

[chemgeek]

SkyTec NL for sure. Zero problems for over a decade of service. Better than the original.

 

[Dana]

I believe I got the Sky-Tec when my old one was working when it felt like it, the Sky-Tec works everytime, I’m happy.

Sounds like the old Delco starter in my plane, I have a lightly used Sky-Tec ready to go in when I have the time.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

SkyTec NL for sure. Zero problems for over a decade of service. Better than the original.

My 1st Skytec lasted 5 years, that’s about 250 starts, my AP said that’s not unusual, my 2nd has 3 years on it, if it fails prematurely there won’t be a 3rd.

 

[Jim_R]

I had a Hartzell E-Series in my '73 Cherokee. It failed after 25 years according to the logbooks (I had the plane for 10 of those), and I replaced it with another E-Series. Might be a couple of pounds heavier than the Sky-Tec, but it can handle a much harder duty cycle than the Sky-Tec (came in handy for me once in very cold weather), can tolerate kickback without requiring the shear pin replacement the Sky-Tec would, and...well, the last one I had lasted 25 years....

 

[Domenick]

In general, I believe the 122 tooth gear was mostly used on the older smaller models up through the 320, and the 149 on larger engines, 360 and up. But it's not universal, so one has to check.

Not necessarily.
My 1979 Warrior (PA-28-161) with an O-320-D3G engine has a ring gear with 149 teeth.
Count them yourself.

 

[Dana]

Not necessarily.
My 1979 Warrior (PA-28-161) with an O-320-D3G engine has a ring gear with 149 teeth.
Count them yourself.

That's why I said, "it's not universal."

The tooth shape is also visibly different; the 122 tooth gears have an angular tooth shape, while the 149 tooth gears are more rounded.

 

[morleyz]

Mine died in my 72 Arrow II in November 2023. Skytec 149-NL FTW. I didn't know how bad mine was until the first start with the Skytec. Only downside is that it was $895 in November and is now $1295 from aircraft spruce. Unless you have a lot of slack, you'll have to rerun the primary wire too.

 

[Gary Ward]

Mine died in my 72 Arrow II in November 2023. Skytec 149-NL FTW. I didn't know how bad mine was until the first start with the Skytec. Only downside is that it was $895 in November and is now $1295 from aircraft spruce. Unless you have a lot of slack, you'll have to rerun the primary wire too.

I was going to jump in here and say how great the SkyTec is except now I see they are going for crazy money. Probably could afford to overhaul your original and be ahead instead of spending a grand or more.
My sky Tec is at least 4 years old and has several thousand starts on it with no trouble yet. I remember it costing something closer to 500 4 years ago?

 

[Dan Thomas]

For those who get short life out of a SkyTec, or any other permanent-magnet starter, pay attention to the manufacturer's warnings about duty cycles. This is from the 149NL maintenance manual:



The motors in these things are much smaller than the old Prestolite starters. They are permanent-magnet affairs adapted from modern automobiles, and are a high-speed motor, geared down to crank the engine. Modern cars start easily, as they have all the electronic stuff to make fuel and ignition just right the first time, and these starters are not usually trying to push huge pistons around. An O-360, 360 cubic inches, is 5.9 litres, 5900 cc, big for any modern vehicle.

And they are typically seven or so pounds lighter than the old starters. That seven pounds could absorb a lot of heat. And that seven pounds was all in the starter motor, too, not in any gearing and extra housing. That little PM motor will get real hot real fast. It has no cooling other than through the case, and since the armature is the thing getting hot, not any field coils, the heat has to find its way out of the armature and into that case and from there to the air. Takes time. The nice thing about these starters is their good cranking speed, making that engine wake up faster, as long as the pilot is intelligent enough to manage the fuel and isn't trying to start a seriously cold-soaked engine.

So you can't just crank until the battery gives up. That starter is likely to give up first. Seems to me that SkyTec provides a panel decal instructing the pilot in the limitations. Like a lot of installation data, it gets ignored.

 

[Gary Ward]

Reminds me of my flight training days in a 172S on a hot day trying to start a fuel injected io-360.
Only allowed to crank it for 20 seconds then you had to wait for 2 minutes to let it cool on a hot azz 95° day sweating my azz off. That sucked and I was not the only one who had trouble.
One time I watched another student/instructor that had trouble and the owner/head mechanic came out and cranked it non stop for close to 2 minutes until it started in a puff of black smoke. I imagined that shortened the life of the starter?

 

[Dan Thomas]

I imagined that shortened the life of the starter?

Yup.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

Thanks for everyone providing some recommendations.

Despite the high cost of a new unit I think I'll probably end up going with a new starter rather than an OH of my model. Mine did last for a very, very long time (31y) but I've also been periodically annoyed since buying it at how sluggish it can seem in cranking the prop relative to other planes I see out there. Even after getting a new battery last month it still didn't crank with the same force that others seem to have.

Anyways - sounds like B&C or Sky-Tec are the two kinds to consider, with Sky-Tec having pretty positive testimonials all around. I'll have to talk to the A&P tomorrow and see the next steps there. Whichever one I get I'll make sure the teeth-count is correct so I don't wear it out early

While I'm in there replacing it - anything else that's good to check on for the starting system? In another thread I recall Bell206 or Dan T recommending to check the master starter relay for sluggish starts (IIRC) since those don't get much attention and can fail. If it's easy to check on or cheap to remove/replace I may throw that on the list while I'm at it.

 

[Hang 4]

While I'm in there replacing it - anything else that's good to check on for the starting system? In another thread I recall Bell206 or Dan T recommending to check the master starter relay for sluggish starts (IIRC) since those don't get much attention and can fail. If it's easy to check on or cheap to remove/replace I may throw that on the list while I'm at it.

Have your battery cables been updated ? Bogert makes a kit that is a huge improvement over the OEM set up. Also check and clean all the connections from battery to starter, both hot and ground side.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

Have your battery cables been updated ? Bogert makes a kit that is a huge improvement over the OEM set up. Also check and clean all the connections from battery to starter, both hot and ground side.

Yeah, I had the Bogert copper cable kit installed as soon as I bought the plane. Before it was using aluminum cables I believe.
Noted on connections from battery to starter.

 

[Gary Ward]

I would put a new starter solenoid on it at the same time.
They used to cost less than 50 bucks. If it acts up your new starter is not going to work. Cheap preventive maintenance.

 

[Magman]

It’s not unheard of to have problems with the engine not starting with a

Starter that cranks the engine faster. This was made infamous with the

earlier O-235 L2C as in152. Lycoming actually has a chart

that shows the faster the engine spins the more “ Starting Timing” is

retarded. Slow speed Starter and dual Impulse Coupled mags addressed

the issue. If you experience problems have your mags checked

for proper E-gap and timing to the engine.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

If your starter is not completely dead, I would take this opportunity to put a multimeter on every component and sections of wire between components to check their health. I don’t doubt it’s your starter, but it would be a waste to add new starter and solenoids and still have substandard wiring. Consider wiring a wear item.

I was planning on replacing my anvil of a starter until I did the diagnosing that was recommended by others here. I found a weak solenoid and a high resistance 12” cable from solenoid to starter. That was 3 years ago. Cost me less than $100 and I learned how to use my multimeter in these dinosaurs.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Be glad for dinosaur technology. You can use a multimeter and diagnose stuff. But on your new car, now...

 

[Domenick]

That's why I said, "it's not universal."

The tooth shape is also visibly different; the 122 tooth gears have an angular tooth shape, while the 149 tooth gears are more rounded.

I apologize and stand corrected. I must have missed the disclaimer. I hesitate to fix it because then your correction makes no sense.
Actually, I'm sitting.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

Brought the plane in and they diagnosed the issue, worn brushes in the starter.
They said it appears to be an original unit not previously overhauled. Nearest logbook entries I could find for it were the installation in 1993. The starter gave 31y of service; pretty solid as aircraft parts go...

Appreciate the recommendations on replacement components. For cost reasons I decided to go with an overhauled unit of the same make model. With the exchange it's substantially less than the price of a SkyTec. And I have confidence in the unit b/c it did last a very, very long time....
In case anyone else is in the market: I'm spending about $650 for OH unit + exchange, versus $1400 for a new SkyTec.

 

[Dan Thomas]

With the exchange it's substantially less than the price of a SkyTec. And I have confidence in the unit b/c it did last a very, very long time....

It won't last the next 31 years. Part of the overhaul includes machining the commutator to remove the worn and grooved copper, so the segments are now thinner than they were and heat up more easily. But it might last as long as a new SkyTec, at half the price. Not bad at all.