STAR Minimums

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apr911

Pre-takeoff checklist
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apr911
Hey All,

Trying to interpret some STARs just to get in the practice and knowing what it is I am looking at and I came across 1 that was covered in my ground school but upon a second glance away from what the ground school was highlighting/drawing my attention towards, I am confused by what it is I am looking at.

I am looking at the OLDEE.OLDEE1 Arrival for KLAX. There is an MEA that confused me on the STAR one that is completely glossed over in the ground school program Im using.

Looking at the chart, Starting at JLI to RONLD, I see an MEA of 16,000 I also see a maximum crossing altitude/ceiling at LAADY of FL190 with a speed restriction at 280 Knots from there it goes on to WYVIL saying you'd cross WYVIL at 16,000 (Depected as both ceiling and floor) then on to OLDEE with a floor of 14,000 and finally finish over SEAVU at a ceiling of 14,000 and a floor of 12,000... which brings me to the issue I have in interpreting this chart.

I cross WYVIL at 16,000 and OLDEE at 14,000 but between the 2 points an MEA of 8,000 is published on the chart. Why? Why would you publish an MEA not only below but significantly below the crossing altitudes of your intersections? Which is the actual limitation on the route?

And this is not the case where an intersection says to "Expect xx,xxx ft MSL" that is significantly above the MEA as seen on most of the other STARs into LAX as I understand the "Expect" is for planning purposes only and my actual crossing of that checkpoint is limited only by ATC and the MEA for the section.
 
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I didn't look at the STAR in question, but it's always good practice to know the MEA anywhere one is flying. I'd consider it good to increase the S.A..

All STAR altitudes can be adjusted by ATC. You may have other traffic routes passing underneath or over certain points.

No need to overthink it. Most of the time you will get a clearance close to what is depicted on the STAR, but may get speed, altitude adjustments or shortcuts.

It's a good time for 110% attention and make sure there are no ambiguities with your clearance.
 
apr911 said:
Hey All,

.........Why? Why would you publish an MEA not only below but significantly below the crossing altitudes of your intersections?............
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So you'll know how low you can go if some emergency requires you to get the hell down, now, and ATC is neither responding or cooperating, without looking for an enroute chart. Or ATC gives you a crossing altitude lower than those on the chart you'll know in one glance, on one chart, that it's a safe altitude. The first time I saw "MEA" on terminal charts I thought it odd also. I learned on another thread here that putting MEA's on STARS and SIDS was done at the request of ALPA or one of the other pilot associations.
 
apr911 said:
I cross WYVIL at 16,000 and OLDEE at 14,000 but between the 2 points an MEA of 8,000 is published on the chart. Why? Why would you publish an MEA not only below but significantly below the crossing altitudes of your intersections? Which is the actual limitation on the route?
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An MEA is a minimum altitude, theoretically to guarantee communication/navigation and obstruction clearance.

Recall a STAR is simply a shorthand for clearance instructions (simple and extremely important to understanding, but so many of us forget that). The altitude restriction is equivalent to an ATC instruction to cross OLDEE at 14,000. It's for traffic management, not obstruction/communication/navigation. Just like a verbal clearance/instruction, ATC can change it. ATC could give you a lower altitude and remove the restriction or simply say "Upon crossing WYVIL, descend and maintain 8,000.
 
luvflyin said:
The first time I saw "MEA" on terminal charts I thought it odd also.
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The other odd thing about it is that the MEA on SIDs and STARS is not necessarily an "MEA" as that term is defined in FAA material
The lowest published altitude between radio fixes which assures acceptable navigational signal coverage and meets obstacle clearance requirements between those fixes. (P/CG)​
 
the published restrictions are only in play if you're told to "descend via the OLDEE ONE arrival."

That's what the jets are likely to get. The high altitudes are there for reasons related to traffic flows and sectorization, not for terrain avoidance.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The other odd thing about it is that the MEA on SIDs and STARS is not necessarily an "MEA" as that term is defined in FAA material
The lowest published altitude between radio fixes which assures acceptable navigational signal coverage and meets obstacle clearance requirements between those fixes. (P/CG)​
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Yeah. The term "MEA" seemed to me wrong to use on a terminal chart. They could have just used the term "minimum altitude" like on approach charts. But the more I thought about it, MEA made sense. STARS can start hundreds of miles out at enroute altitudes. I'm sure they calculate them out the same way as for airways, ensuring obstruction clearance and reception. If you look at it like this; before the STAR was invented, most of the route it covers is what was considered the enroute phase of flight. They start way out there and pretty much end in the neighborhood of where IAF's are and the approach phase of flight begins. You can get from PHX to DEN with just a SID and a STAR, may as well call them MEA's
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. The term "MEA" seemed to me wrong to use on a terminal chart. They could have just used the term "minimum altitude" like on approach charts. But the more I thought about it, MEA made sense. STARS can start hundreds of miles out at enroute altitudes. I'm sure they calculate them out the same way as for airways, ensuring obstruction clearance and reception. If you look at it like this; before the STAR was invented, most of the route it covers is what was considered the enroute phase of flight. They start way out there and pretty much end in the neighborhood of where IAF's are and the approach phase of flight begins. You can get from PHX to DEN with just a SID and a STAR, may as well call them MEA's
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Obstruction clearance is not calculated for STARs for the very reason you cite later in your post, they exist only at already established enroute altitudes.
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. The term "MEA" seemed to me wrong to use on a terminal chart. They could have just used the term "minimum altitude" like on approach charts. But the more I thought about it, MEA made sense. STARS can start hundreds of miles out at enroute altitudes. I'm sure they calculate them out the same way as for airways, ensuring obstruction clearance and reception. If you look at it like this; before the STAR was invented, most of the route it covers is what was considered the enroute phase of flight. They start way out there and pretty much end in the neighborhood of where IAF's are and the approach phase of flight begins. You can get from PHX to DEN with just a SID and a STAR, may as well call them MEA's
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See if it still makes sense after looking at the RDU-CVI route on the DRONE STAR into KORF (Norfolk VA) and compare it to the exact same routing on the en route chart.
 
Stephen and Mark, I see the point (how do you put more than one quote in a reply), they call them MEA,s but they are not. I guess I'm going to stick by my first thoughts that they are not really MEA's and therefore should be called something else.
 
luvflyin said:
Stephen and Mark, I see the point (how do you put more than one quote in a reply), they call them MEA,s but they are not. I guess I'm going to stick by my first thoughts that they are not really MEA's and therefore should be called something else.
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BTW, I've been assigned the DRONE STAR. At 5,000 ft.

how do you put more than one quote in a reply
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By using the quote toolbar icon :)
 
Sheesh. Looks like each region, facility or whoever happens to be in the office that day just does what seems like a good idea to them that day. I see that SJC STAR came out of the FAA office in Renton. They were the ones responsible for the SLE Class D fiasco last year.
 
aterpster said:
Where did you get that idea?
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At the FAA Academy in Course 50019 Airspace & Procedures.

What would you call this analysis?
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If it does not go below already established minimum IFR altitudes I'd call it a waste of time and resources. Is there any portion of this procedure where that happens?
 
roncachamp said:
At the FAA Academy in Course 50019 Airspace & Procedures.



If it does not go below already established minimum IFR altitudes I'd call it a waste of time and resources. Is there any portion of this procedure where that happens?
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Is there a rationale for why on the legend of STAR and SID charts, those altitudes are identified as "MEA" instead of "minimum altitude" as it is on approach plates? That's what started my first rant on this subject from a thread a couple of months ago.
 
midlifeflyer said:
BTW, I've been assigned the DRONE STAR. At 5,000 ft.


By using the quote toolbar icon :)
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I push the "quote" button and get to right where I am now typing this. What I don't see is where I can add another quote from another post
 
luvflyin said:
I push the "quote" button and get to right where I am now typing this. What I don't see is where I can add another quote from another post
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Not the "Quote" icon, the " "+ " icon, ie, the one in the middle.

dtuuri
 
luvflyin said:
Is there a rationale for why on the legend of STAR and SID charts, those altitudes are identified as "MEA" instead of "minimum altitude" as it is on approach plates? That's what started my first rant on this subject from a thread a couple of months ago.
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There is not. Order JO 7100.9E Standard Terminal Arrival Program and Procedures calls for depiction of a minimum en route altitude for each en route segment of a STAR. The order does not provide a STAR-specific definition of MEA and we've already seen an example of a STAR overlying Victor airways that has higher STAR MEAs than airway MEAs. IMHO depicting MEAs on STARs where the minimum altitude for the procedure is higher than already established minimum IFR altitudes is just clutter.
 
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dtuuri said:
Not the "Quote" icon, the " "+ " icon, ie, the one in the middle.

dtuuri
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roncachamp said:
At the FAA Academy in Course 50019 Airspace & Procedures.



If it does not go below already established minimum IFR altitudes I'd call it a waste of time and resources. Is there any portion of this procedure where that happens?
Click to expand...

aterpster said:
Where did you get that idea?

What would you call this analysis?

https://www.faa.gov/aero_docs/acifp/2015082631946001002-SJC/CA_KSJC_STAR_SILCN THREE RNAV_S.pdf
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Ah Ha
 
roncachamp said:
...we've already seen an example of a STAR overlying Victor airways that has higher STAR MEAs than airway MEAs. IMHO depicting MEAs on STARs where the minimum altitude for the procedure is higher than already established minimum IFR altitudes is just clutter.
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The workload is high enough without the crew trying to relate the en route charts to the STAR chart.
 
roncachamp said:
There is not. Order JO 7100.9E Standard Terminal Arrival Program and Procedures calls for depiction of a minimum en route altitude for each en route segment of a STAR. The order does not provide a STAR-specific definition of MEA and we've already seen an example of a STAR overlying Victor airways that has higher STAR MEAs than airway MEAs. IMHO depicting MEAs on STARs where the minimum altitude for the procedure is higher than already established minimum IFR altitudes is just clutter.
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Got it. The MEA and/or MOCA (per the actual definition of MEA or MOCA) must be calculated to ensure that the altitude depicted on the chart meets those requirements for obstruction clearance, navaid reception and communication. The altitude depicted on the chart cannot be lower, but it can be higher for ATC. If the depicted altitude is above FL180, the obstruction clearance study does not need to be done. The chart legend just calls them all MEA.
 
coma24 said:
the published restrictions are only in play if you're told to "descend via the OLDEE ONE arrival."
.
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that is not entirely true. It is only true for the altitudes, if it is a speed, unless it says to "expect" you are to fly the published speed on the arrival regardless of if you were given a descend via clearance or not
 
Justin, that's correct. I was referring to altitudes since that was the focus of this discussion.
 
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