Stalls, stalls, stalls, stalls

[RalphInCA]

Beginning right seat flight training towards my CFI. We have discovered a weakness in my flying: I am not nearly comfortable enough doing stalls.

So guess what we are doing next flight? Stalls, stalls, stalls. Power off, power on, accelerated, crossed control, elevator trim, secondary. Oh yeah, also spins.

I told my instructor that we will keep doing stalls until either he gets sick, we run out of gas, or I get it. Which ever comes first.

 

[mscard88]

After you do some spins the stalls will improve IMO. The worse result from a stall is a spin, and once you learn how to recover from a spin you'll get it. Keep after it, many CFIs are afeared of stalls, and spins. My old CFI used to send his CFI students (and anyone wanting spin training) to me for spin training because he didn't like or enjoy them. But he was cool to drink beer with.

 

[dmspilot]

Getting your spin endorsement will take care of it.

 

[jordane93]

What do you mean by you’re not comfortable doing stalls from the right seat? Like you can’t keep the plane coordinated?

 

[RyanB]

After you do some spins the stalls will improve IMO. The worse result from a stall is a spin, and once you learn how to recover from a spin you'll get it. Keep after it, many CFIs are afeared of stalls, and spins. My old CFI used to send his CFI students (and anyone wanting spin training) to me for spin training because he didn't like or enjoy them. But he was cool to drink beer with.

Stalls became second nature after I did spin training.

 

[N3368K]

I frequently take my Cub up and do slow flight and stalls. I mean, because it is so slow to begin with, other than shooting landings, what else is there to do? I also spin it a few times each year, just to stay current in spin recovery, though, in a Cub let go of everything and it will typically stop. I like to play with steep bank power on stalls just to see where it will let go. Stalls from slips are fun too. The plane will simply roll wings level and fly...unless you hold the opposite rudder and then it will spin the opposite direction. Stalls from skids, typically what happens in pattern stall/spin accidents will result in a spin unless you cheat and catch it before it develops...which won't likely happen in an inadvertent stall.

I also like to take my RV-4 and stall it, again, practicing from steep banks. I practice slow flight making 360 degree turns flying it as slow as 60mph indicated. While the book says it stalls at 48mph, on my ASI, it stalls at around 55 indicated. By doing this, I've been able to slow my approach speed down from 80 to 75 with 65-70 across the fence and make much more consistent and shorter landings. I haven't spun the RV a great deal, but like the Cub, just letting go usually results in it flying out of it. Still, I practice standard recovery techniques just to burn them into muscle memory for faster reaction should I ever need it.

It is also just something fun to do occasionally.

 

[midlifeflyer]

After you do some spins the stalls will improve IMO. The worse result from a stall is a spin, and once you learn how to recover from a spin you'll get it. Keep after it, many CFIs are afeared of stalls, and spins. My old CFI used to send his CFI students (and anyone wanting spin training) to me for spin training because he didn't like or enjoy them. But he was cool to drink beer with.

..and, of course, not liking or enjoying is different from being afeared.

But you are right. Even the minimal spin training required of a CFI candidate can go a long way to combating fear of stalls. I don't teach spins but my spin training absolutely made a big difference in my willingness to let a student get into a bit of trouble during a lesson.

I'd also recommend falling leaf stalls since they show you don't have to recover and nothing much happens so long as one remains in coordinated fight.

 

[Lachlan]

After you do some spins the stalls will improve IMO. The worse result from a stall is a spin, and once you learn how to recover from a spin you'll get it. Keep after it, many CFIs are afeared of stalls, and spins. My old CFI used to send his CFI students (and anyone wanting spin training) to me for spin training because he
didn't like or enjoy them. But he was cool to drink beer with.

If you drink enough beer you’ll eventually get the spins.

 

[mscard88]

If you drink enough beer you’ll eventually get the spins.

BTDT

 

[Zeldman]

But he was cool to drink beer with.

Before, during or after the spins...???

 

[mscard88]

Before, during or after the spins...???

He didn't do spins, but after I was done flying for the day, if he were around, well it was beer-thirty. Oh, after for me.

 

[RoscoeT]

Getting your spin endorsement will take care of it.

Spin endorsement is just a bare minimum formality on the way to meeting the CFI requirement, and judging from the numbers of CFIs scared of spins, I'd say it will not necessarily take care of it. The OP should get as much stall/spin training as required to lick the concern. Getting aerobatic spin training would definitely take care of it.

 

[dmspilot]

Spin endorsement is just a bare minimum formality on the way to meeting the CFI requirement, and judging from the numbers of CFIs scared of spins, I'd say it will not necessarily take care of it. The OP should get as much stall/spin training as required to lick the concern. Getting aerobatic spin training would definitely take care of it.

You missed the point which is that he is wasting time trying to get over anxiety of stalls by practicing stalls, when he will need to do spins anyway.

 

[wilkersk]

Have you ever tried the "falling leaf" demo? The 152 is the best at this. But, a 172 will work just fine as long as there's a little wind. It'll definitely get you used to feeling that "edge" of the stall (power off).

Head into the wind and pull the power off and start easing in back pressure to maintain altitude as you slow. Once you can no longer maintain altitude just continue smoothly pulling the yoke back to the stop and keep it there. Keep the ailerons neutral and use the rudders to keep the wings level and into the wind. If all is in balance, it'll stall, mush, speed up, the nose will come up, and then it'll stall again. You can do this fairly predictably, and it'll stall over and over with a steady descent at around 1000 to 1500 ft/min. Its not even uncomfortable, once you see what's happening.

 

[ChemGuy]

Glad to see you recognize the stall fear issue you have. I've flown with a couple cfis on checkouts that seemed afraid to just be in the air. Like a little turbulence would freak them out. And didn't like to actually let the plane get into a fully stalled condition.

And before these experiences I wondered where the "timid" pilots I've seen came from. Then I figured it out. Afraid CFI can equal afraid pilot.

Good luck and have fun. Stalling the plane is fun. Especially when you have one that gives a good break and doesn't just mush along with the horn blaring

 

[Bill]

Have you ever tried the "falling leaf" demo?

I did an intro to aerobatics course in a Citabria, one of the first exercises we did were leaf stalls. I thought they were fun.

 

[Zeldman]

We did spin training when I was a CFI candidate. My instructor was also a aerobatic instructor.

We tried more than once to get more than 6 turns in a spin in a C-152, but after the 6th one, still holding controls to induce the spin, the plane would just pull itself out and start a descending steep turn.

We did things that a C-152 should probably never do. I loved doing spins.

 

[RoscoeT]

You missed the point which is that he is wasting time trying to get over anxiety of stalls by practicing stalls, when he will need to do spins anyway.

Nope, just not sure why you brought up the spin "endorsement" which doesn't mean much for the OP regarding the issue he's facing. He'll likely want more extensive training than the minimal "endorsement" level, for which the formality also doesn't mean much unless he's looking to become a CFI candidate.

 

[dmspilot]

Nope, just not sure why you brought up the spin "endorsement" which doesn't mean much for the OP regarding the issue he's facing. He'll likely want more extensive training than the minimal "endorsement" level, for which the formality also doesn't mean much unless he's looking to become a CFI candidate.

Well it's no wonder you are confused. Try reading the post. It's in the very first sentence.

If he is still afraid of stalls after achieving instructional proficiency in spins, something else is very wrong.

 

[saddletramp]

Speaking of stall training. One of my pet peeves is that some instructors & student focus on the execution of the stall. That shouldn't be the focus.

The focus is recognition & recovery with minimum loss of altitude & not getting into a secondary stall.

Stalls at altitude are a yawn, once you get comfortable with them. Stalls at low altitude can be & often are deadly.

 

[tinerj]

Speaking of stall training. One of my pet peeves is that some instructors & student focus on the execution of the stall. That shouldn't be the focus.

The focus should be on how to avoid them in the first place.

 

[jordane93]

Speaking of stall training. One of my pet peeves is that some instructors & student focus on the execution of the stall. That shouldn't be the focus.

The focus is recognition & recovery with minimum loss of altitude & not getting into a secondary stall.

Stalls at altitude are a yawn, once you get comfortable with them. Stalls at low altitude can be & often are deadly.

They probably focus on the execution of the stall because it’s one of the things that’s required in the ACS. The ACS also doesn’t specify minimal loss of altitude. It just says to recover promptly in accordance with the airplane’s AFM or POH.

 

[dmspilot]

Speaking of stall training. One of my pet peeves is that some instructors & student focus on the execution of the stall. That shouldn't be the focus.

The focus is recognition & recovery with minimum loss of altitude & not getting into a secondary stall.

Stalls at altitude are a yawn, once you get comfortable with them. Stalls at low altitude can be & often are deadly.

It is not just about recovery. It is about aircraft control. If the airplane wallows all over the sky before it even stalls the pilot needs more practice, regardless of what happens after. Most maneuvers in pilot training have more than one purpose.

 

[WannFly]

I donno what full stall is.... archer flyer

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[saddletramp]

That's why I really enjoy teaching the basics of flight in the glider. When you stall. for example, you learn that pitch is the true method of recovery. It's nice not having the distraction of power management. The glider is also a great way to perform spin training too.

 

[wilkersk]

The focus should be on how to avoid them in the first place.

I always thought the focus should be on learning to fly the wing. Just "fly-by-numbers" technique is good for when you're just starting. True understanding comes with learning that seat-of-the-pants feel for the stall.

 

[upstateny]

After completing the requisite spins (left and right) for CFI training, and said, "Let's do it again!" My CFI obliged, but drew the line on doing them a third time. He was getting sick. I thought it was great fun. Guess I've got to go get me some aerobatic training.

 

[Sundancer]

I inadvertantly entered a spin in a SF-260, at one of those fantasy air combat events; I kicked some rudder as I ran out of airspeed in the veryical, trying to track my opponent for a few extra seconds - over we went, or, actually, over we started - as soon as I relaxed the back pressure, the rotation stopped, like less than a half turn. God, I loved that airplane! If I had $350K . . . The retired Navy jock "supervising" from the right seat told me if I remembered "push, power, rudder, roll", I'd live forever.

Anyway, on topic, a spin was just one more standard kind of manuveur for him, and as we were well above the hard floor, he was content to let me take all the time I needed to get it re-organized. . .

 

[GRG55]

I donno what full stall is.... archer flyer

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

It's when the engine in the Honda quits on you right in the middle of the turnpike during rush hour. That's full, baby.

 

[denverpilot]

I told my instructor that we will keep doing stalls until either he gets sick, we run out of gas, or I get it. Which ever comes first.

Keep in mind that repeating something too much without progression of knowledge can work against you.

I’d suggest not only focusing on the stalls but also on :

Common ways students will get into them. Instructor can demonstrate. The checkride stalls are fairly rote and not much attention is placed on understanding how a student will try to kill you.

Set up descending turn stalls cross controlled, like a student incorrectly trying to rudder around the base to final turn, for example. Then try them cross controlled the other way in a slip instead of a skid. Note which one is more dangerous.

Do falling leaf practice. And real hanging on the prop slow flight. Enter slow flight from a climb like a student who’s just kept pulling after takeoff. Minimize altitude loss on recovery. Etc etc etc.

Make the scenarios as real as possible.

And spins. Get comfortable with the spins. That’ll make all the stalls seem fairly commonplace. Try slightly accelerated stalls into the spin. Try spinning from a climb and a descent. Get one both directions that breaks a bit “over the top” through inverted as it goes over. Induce spins like a hamfisted student who uses full aileron to try to level the aircraft at the stall. Stuff like that.

In other words. Don’t just do the textbook stalls and a couple of benign spins. Get the airplane doing some more turning climbing and descending for the spin entries and see, hear, and feel what they feel and look like.

You’ll have fun either way, but try and apply what you’re doing to what’ll happen when teaching.

 

[RoscoeT]

Well it's no wonder you are confused. Try reading the post. It's in the very first sentence.

If he is still afraid of stalls after achieving instructional proficiency in spins, something else is very wrong.

Boy I did miss the boat! The brain skipped to the crux of the post and could not rectify a CFI candidate with stall discomfort. You are correct I should read more carefully. But I stand by my comments about the spin endorsement.