Stalls at Night

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HPNFlyGirl

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I was wondering if stalls at night were legal. Just wondering since I have heard it both ways from a few different flight instructors.
 
HPNFlyGirl said:
I was wondering if stalls at night were legal. Just wondering since I have heard it both ways from a few different flight instructors.
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No where in any FAR I am aware of does it say you cannot do stalls in the day, night, or even IMC given the right clearance. Now there may be some safety issues, local rental restrictions, and just plain common sense prohibitions on when to practice stalls, but that is another discussion.

Next time some one states it is illegal ask them to helkp you find it in the FARs.
 
All the sims were night only for the first 20 years or so, every training event included stalls, mostly IMC.

smigaldi said:
No where in any FAR I am aware of does it say you cannot do stalls in the day, night, or even IMC given the right clearance. Now there may be some safety issues, local rental restrictions, and just plain common sense prohibitions on when to practice stalls, but that is another discussion.

Next time some one states it is illegal ask them to helkp you find it in the FARs.
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HPNFlyGirl said:
I was wondering if stalls at night were legal. Just wondering since I have heard it both ways from a few different flight instructors.
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I don't think the plane cares whether it's legal or not, or if it's night or not. :D
 
HPNFlyGirl said:
I was wondering if stalls at night were legal. Just wondering since I have heard it both ways from a few different flight instructors.
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They are not forbidden at night but certainly not recommended due to safety concerns.

With some CFII's, stalls are performed under the hood during instrument training and that's as far as it should go. For me, it was done along with unusual attitude recovery. If there's any doubt one cannot safely recover from a stall at night, then more time under the hood during the day would be suggested. For even greater safety training, explore spins under the hood with a qualified CFI in aerobatics.
 
KennyFlys said:
They are not forbidden at night but certainly not recommended due to safety concerns.
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Look at it this way. Stalls are taught to teach recognition and recovery. Well--last I checked stalls can kill you the same at night. It seems to me that not teaching a student at night is shorting them. Just my opinion.
 
KennyFlys said:
They are not forbidden at night but certainly not recommended due to safety concerns.

With some CFII's, stalls are performed under the hood during instrument training and that's as far as it should go. For me, it was done along with unusual attitude recovery. If there's any doubt one cannot safely recover from a stall at night, then more time under the hood during the day would be suggested. For even greater safety training, explore spins under the hood with a qualified CFI in aerobatics.
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I did stalls at night while under the hood during my instrument training. When the CFI-I can see the horizon clearly at night due to lights, natural and artificial, what is the concern?

Aren't stall taught while basically looking at the instruments anyway, even for primary students? Are they not taught to keep and eye on the ball to keep it centered and then for stall recovery to look at the instrumetns to see when they get a reversal and then to climb back out. I can't remember using many outside visual references.

Be that all as it may.

I still stand by my statement that there are no FARs prohibitng them to be performed at night. That is my answer to Brook's question. The rest is all treadmill related. ;)
 
jesse said:
Look at it this way. Stalls are taught to teach recognition and recovery. Well--last I checked stalls can kill you the same at night. It seems to me that not teaching a student at night is shorting them. Just my opinion.
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I understand your point and it is certainly valid. The primary purpose during instrument training is to teach trust and dependence on instruments where required which is certainly the case in IMC. That can be done during the daylight just as easily.

The biggest concern of such maneuvers at night would be traffic separation. I've seen too many close calls during the day when my head is spinning for traffic. I'm not about to do that during the night.
 
KennyFlys said:
The biggest concern of such maneuvers at night would be traffic separation. I've seen too many close calls during the day when my head is spinning for traffic. I'm not about to do that during the night.
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I am not a CFI and so have no reference about teaching. But I do fly at night and it always seems to me to be easier to spot traffic at night thanks to position lights and I have noticed that there are a lot less planes to deal with at night.
 
smigaldi said:
I am not a CFI and so have no reference about teaching. But I do fly at night and it always seems to me to be easier to spot traffic at night thanks to position lights and I have noticed that there are a lot less planes to deal with at night.
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That depends on where you are. The other night about 9PM, we were shooting approaches at San Marcos, twenty south of AUS and under radar. There was myself and another CFI while the student was under the hood. We looked plenty but there were two targets we could not find. One was one of our own planes and talking to us on the company unicom. They didn't see us so easily, either.

While I wouldn't mind such maneuvers in a well-controlled environment it's difficult to have that kind of control, even with vigilant radar services. Safety first.
 
KennyFlys said:
That depends on where you are. The other night about 9PM, we were shooting approaches at San Marcos, twenty south of AUS and under radar. There was myself and another CFI while the student was under the hood. We looked plenty but there were two targets we could not find. One was one of our own planes and talking to us on the company unicom. They didn't see us so easily, either.

While I wouldn't mind such maneuvers in a well-controlled environment it's difficult to have that kind of control, even with vigilant radar services. Safety first.
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How can you not see traffic at night? I've never had an instance, at night, where I could not pick out traffic....

Stalls at night are perfectly safe, given they are performed the same as they are during the day. You get altitude, and you stall, after a clearing turn.

Most of my hours in my logbook are night hours, and for good reason. It is, IMHO, infinitely safer (and more relaxing) to fly at night.
 
Pilots are more suseptable to the very dangerous "leans" at night, even VFR. Be careful and use an experienced CFII to gain some valuable night unusual attitude recoveries.

It's a common misconception among some pilots that it's easier to spot things at night and usually not true.
 
SkyHog said:
How can you not see traffic at night? I've never had an instance, at night, where I could not pick out traffic....

Stalls at night are perfectly safe, given they are performed the same as they are during the day. You get altitude, and you stall, after a clearing turn.

Most of my hours in my logbook are night hours, and for good reason. It is, IMHO, infinitely safer (and more relaxing) to fly at night.
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That doesn't mean you go and perform such maneuvers at night. If you want to do so, knock yourself out with a willing instructor. I will not do that with a student nor would I ever suggest another CFI do that. If you cannot recover safely and properly from under the hood in daytime, you're not going to do any better at night without the hood whether it's an imminent stall, buffeting or full break. It is not the time of day nor the amount of light that makes you a safe pilot.

And, not every plane is going to be visible to you. During some 280 hours of dual given, several times I've not seen a plane ATC points me to. I also have a significant amount of night flight, about 130 hours. Night vision is diminished significantly. When you're attempting to watch the student's actions, their direction of flight and properly scan the sky at night, you're worked pretty good at that point. You don't stretch the safety factor just to meet one's own personal desires.
 
HPNFlyGirl said:
I was wondering if stalls at night were legal. Just wondering since I have heard it both ways from a few different flight instructors.
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Of course they are dear, if you want to practice them, I suggest you use a full moon night facing into the moon and preferably some hills to give you a fast easy horizon. Practice them under the hood as well.
 
Which is harder to see?
a_night.jpg

1308155909_e98dc652c3.jpg


I know which one I can see better.....
 
SkyHog said:
Which is harder to see?
a_night.jpg

1308155909_e98dc652c3.jpg


I know which one I can see better.....
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Well yeah, two major issues, top one you're not in flight, and your camera is not nearly as sensitive as your eyes, especially after they shift to night mode. Or are you talking about the planes?
 
There is no FAA ("legal") prohibition.

But, the purpose of stall training, the need for clearing turns (in order to spot nearby traffic), and the possibility of a spin, all imply that the horizon and visibility become an important consideration for the conditions under which the practice occurs.

FAA Airplane Flying Handbook (4-3)
The objectives in performing intentional stalls are to familiarize the pilot with the conditions that produce stalls, to assist in recognizing an approaching stall, and to develop the habit of taking prompt preventive or corrective action.
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Stalls under the hood are excellent training, as the CFII can be scanning for traffic and can recover from the spin if you completely botch the stall.

While it would be ideal if every pilot could recover from spins in IMC, that is not currently a requirement in any PTS.
 
Other than complying with some vague FAR requirement, doing a manoeuver under "the hood" provides virtually nothing compared with the real thing.
Therefore if you want to know you can do a stall recovery at night, practice it at night with an experienced instructor. If you want to be able to handle VMC into IMC, practice in IMC with an experienced instructor.
 
I've always included some slow flight and stalls in initial night training -- the fact that it's dark out doesn't mean you won't fly yourself into one accidentally. And if your instructor says they're illegal, ask to see the reg.
 
Knew an instructor once who liked to go out over the ocean at night and do spins. One day he and a young doc went for a night flight. Neither was seen again, though the young doc's Porsche remained in the flight school's parking lot.
 
Ron Levy said:
I've always included some slow flight and stalls in initial night training -- the fact that it's dark out doesn't mean you won't fly yourself into one accidentally. And if your instructor says they're illegal, ask to see the reg.
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You know Ron, I seem to like you more and more every day lately.
 
Henning said:
Well yeah, two major issues, top one you're not in flight, and your camera is not nearly as sensitive as your eyes, especially after they shift to night mode. Or are you talking about the planes?
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Top one may not be in flight, but its the same concept, you see the lights a hell of a lot easier than you see the plane....

I don't understand the "misconception" that its harder to see traffic at night?
 
SkyHog said:
Top one may not be in flight, but its the same concept, you see the lights a hell of a lot easier than you see the plane....

I don't understand the "misconception" that its harder to see traffic at night?
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TeenDoc said:
You're assuming the traffic in question has at least one light on!
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Depends on where you are. Congested areas, the plane lights can get lost in the ground lights if you are looking down on the traffic. I've seen this in NJ around NYC and Atlantic City when Bader was still open and also around Chicago.

As for the original question, I don't know it's not illegal. The instructor should be a CFII able to bring you out of a spin on instruments. Not that you deliberately get into one, just to handle the worst case....
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Depends on where you are. Congested areas, the plane lights can get lost in the ground lights if you are looking down on the traffic. I've seen this in NJ around NYC and Atlantic City when Bader was still open and also around Chicago.

As for the original question, I don't know it's not illegal. The instructor should be a CFII able to bring you out of a spin on instruments. Not that you deliberately get into one, just to handle the worst case....
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Why would you be doing stalls over a city anyways?
 
Cap'n Jack said:
As for the original question, I don't know it's not illegal.
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After parsing that a bit, it sounds like you say you think it might be illegal. Can you tell us why you think that?
The instructor should be a CFII able to bring you out of a spin on instruments.
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This is not a requirement for the instrument rating for flight instructors or pilots, and I can only see bad things coming of such an idea. I'll still with stall/spin prevention training/testing.
 
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SkyHog said:
Top one may not be in flight, but its the same concept, you see the lights a hell of a lot easier than you see the plane....

I don't understand the "misconception" that its harder to see traffic at night?
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In populated areas it can be dificult to spot traffic below you due to the backscatter, strobes and more recently pulse lights have helped with that a bunch.

I didn't know if he was refering to seeing the horizon (most important) or traffic.
 
The easy-to-see at night cases are the ones that erroneously reinforce the common misconception that it's easier to spot air traffic at night. Those aircraft with landing lights on coming straight on are not usually a problem in spotting, except in instances where distant stadium lights come into play, or near bright lights of other kinds such as near a city.

After a stall &/or spin recovery at night the pilot(s) will sometimes be somewhat more suseptable to the host of night illusions and dangerous aeromedical factors. It can be difficult for some people to accept in advance of in flight problems, the potential severity of all these different factors for pilots, especially at night, if they haven't actually experienced them for themselves in a significant way. Hence the high value of actual, qualified flight training for any conditions in question.

It was over ten years of flying at night and in IMC before I actually experienced a strong case of the "leans" myself, even though I'd heard of them before.
 
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I love the whole "do them with a CFI" thing. Considering a heck of a lot of CFIs I know, their weight adds more hazard than their skill averts.
 
Henning said:
I love the whole "do them with a CFI" thing. Considering a heck of a lot of CFIs I know, their weight adds more hazard than their skill averts.
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Ain't it the truth. That's why I like to qualify CFIs with the term "qualified"...
Of course I've also learned tons of stuff from other (qualified) pilots that weren't CFIs and continue to do so. It's sometimes cheaper too!
 
SkyHog said:
Why would you be doing stalls over a city anyways?
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I probably should have broken the message into two parts. I wouldn't do stalls over a city- I was just responding to the issue about seeing traffic at night.
 
smigaldi said:
Aren't stall taught while basically looking at the instruments anyway, even for primary students? Are they not taught to keep and eye on the ball to keep it centered and then for stall recovery to look at the instrumetns to see when they get a reversal and then to climb back out. I can't remember using many outside visual references.
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OK, it's been a L O N G time since I was initially taught about stalls, but I don't recall using instruments at all except for a glance or two at the air speed. I know I never used the ball - I kept the wings level with the horizon with the rudder.

For my private flight exam, the examiner asked for a "delayed recovery" stall - I had never done that before and I didn't want to look dumb by asking what he wanted (Thus guaranteeing that I would look dumb, eh?) so I just held the stick back and danced on the pedals to keep the wings level and wondered just how long I was supposed to do it. After a while, he said that all I had to do was wait until the nose dropped below the horizon... But I definitely had my eyes outside the cockpit.
 
Ron Levy said:
After parsing that a bit, it sounds like you say you think it might be illegal. Can you tell us why you think that?
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I'm just hedging. I don't believe it is illegal. The FAR has a lot of text and I don't pretend I know all of it.

Ron Levy said:
This is not a requirement for the instrument rating for flight instructors or pilots, and I can only see bad things coming of such an idea. I'll still with stall/spin prevention training/testing.
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I'n not disagreeing with you. If practicing stalls at night, the instructor should have the ability to regain control on the instruments- I don't know the percentage that actually have this knowledge.
 
Henning said:
I love the whole "do them with a CFI" thing. Considering a heck of a lot of CFIs I know, their weight adds more hazard than their skill averts.
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I am glad you said that. It is pretty much what I was thinking. I think there is a misconception that the CFI's get more training than they actually do.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
How do you define "Qualified"?
How do you determine "Qualified"?
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That's why I used the word "experienced." To me that means has performed the action enough times so that the successful outcome is never in doubt. The CFI part means he/she has the skill set to teach it as well as demonstrate it.
Many CFIs are not experienced with regards to a lot of things we talk about in these threads (spins, IMC, weather, to name a few). Not all their fault. They didn't write the PTS or set the aeronautical experience requirements so low.
 
Lance F said:
That's why I used the word "experienced." To me that means has performed the action enough times so that the successful outcome is never in doubt. The CFI part means he/she has the skill set to teach it as well as demonstrate it.
Many CFIs are not experienced with regards to a lot of things we talk about in these threads (spins, IMC, weather, to name a few). Not all their fault. They didn't write the PTS or set the aeronautical experience requirements so low.
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So, would it be fair for me to charge the CFI for going up with me, or at least split the cost of the rental?
 
Henning said:
So, would it be fair for me to charge the CFI for going up with me, or at least split the cost of the rental?
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It would be and many should. However...although it would be nice if inexperienced CFIs realized that their certificates are just another license to learn (and that they may have a lot to learn), I am guessing that many do not take such an attitude.
 
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