SR22 Down - Gulf of Mexico

Omalley1537 said:
Obviously just a WAG on my part, but I recall reading about an NTSB report (I think) where O2 was used but the regulator was leaking (unbeknownst to the pilot). The net result was that he used up his O2 much faster than planned, failed to catch the symptoms, and the predictable happened. Just a possibility.
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Nah, that just make way too much sense, therefore, it can't be. Clark says it's a suicide, so there you go, case closed. Call back the Coast Guard, cancel the NTSB...
 
Clark1961 said:
other than flying into the gulf without a course change...
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What about the tbm that flew past Cuba after losing pressure....what about Payne Stewart...maybe not over the gulf but so what. Far more examples of ‘flying straight “somewhere” due to loss of pressure’ than suicide.
 
It looks about 650-675NM from the time the track took the turn over Spring Creek private airstrip NW of Clifton TX, to the end of the green line in flightaware. Can the -22 get that kind of range on a single side?
 
I'm not speculating or commenting on anything related to the aircraft itself, but... Single pilot incapacitation scares the hell out of me!
 
Remember that Mooney guy who passed out shortly after takeoff last year because of CO poisoning? He awoke while sitting in the crashed airplane. He had PC on and the windmilling propeller produced enough vacuum for it to work. So, when the plane ran out of gas, it glided into a field. When he woke up, he had to walk a mile or so in the snow to the nearest farm, bleeding all the way, haha. Bet if he went into the Gulf people would be claiming suicide too.
 
hindsight2020 said:
It looks about 650-675NM from the time the track took the turn over Spring Creek private airstrip NW of Clifton TX, to the end of the green line in flightaware. Can the -22 get that kind of range on a single side?
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40.5 a side. What, 13gph in cruise?
 
murphey said:
Looking at Flightaware, he climbed immediately to 20K...I don't understand why he would do that in an unpressurized airplane. Is it possible a medical event occurred shortly after takeoff and the airplane was on autopilot? The track looks like fairly constant 20k alt all the way.
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I have a non-pressurized airplane, and if I can get cleared to my planned cruising altitude (usually low to mid-teens) I climb immediately to it. If I had a turbocharged Cirrus and I was flying light, I wouldn't hesitate to climb to 20k if cleared. Don't understand why you think that's a problem?
 
GRG55 said:
I have a non-pressurized airplane, and if I can get cleared to my planned cruising altitude (usually low to mid-teens) I climb immediately to it. If I had a turbocharged Cirrus and I was flying light, I wouldn't hesitate to climb to 20k if cleared. Don't understand why you think that's a problem?
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because he had passengers flying on an air carrier certificate. Not the same as you sucking oxygen in your personal airplane.
 
EvilEagle said:
We scrambled on him tonight. I think one guy is still out shadowing... RIP
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I see you guys scrambled 2 F16's and then later 2 F15's. What would be the procedure trying to wake him up?

The Cirrus in question had automatic emergency descend, but if the pilot leaned forward on a control it wouldn't have taken effect. But maybe if someone laid down some wake turbulence right in front of him, it could have caused him to shift position, which may have freed the control.

E.g. see the effect on this guy after wake turbulence from a F15 - that could well have shifted the pilot to another position:

No idea if that would have helped - just curious if something like that would ever be purposefully tried? (As a last resort).
 
eman1200 said:
What about the tbm that flew past Cuba after losing pressure....what about Payne Stewart...maybe not over the gulf but so what. Far more examples of ‘flying straight “somewhere” due to loss of pressure’ than suicide.
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Last I checked a 22 isn’t pressurized. There are a couple things that indicate deliberate choice. Altitude selected and turn toward the Gulf. Twenty minutes climbing for an hour flight? Not often and he should have been descending long before the turn to the Gulf.

We can argue about angels dancing on the spinner or we can look at the few apparent facts. Either way is fine.
 
BigBadLou said:
Negative.
He was coming to KGTU to pick up an elderly Husky for a transport north. Never made it.
Now, whether he had other people onboard, I do not know. He had a flight plan, of course (at FL190), so if anybody can find SOB, that would tell us.

Btw, this is a friend of a friend. I never met him but heard that he was a great guy.
R.I.P. :(
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OK, that makes more sense. RIP indeed. I hope something can be learned from this. In my experience, the jerk-to-pilot ratio goes way down when you carve out pilots who do animal rescues or volunteer medical transport flights, so I have no doubt he was a great guy.
 
BigBadLou said:
Negative.
He was coming to KGTU to pick up an elderly Husky for a transport north. Never made it.
Now, whether he had other people onboard, I do not know. He had a flight plan, of course (at FL190), so if anybody can find SOB, that would tell us.

Btw, this is a friend of a friend. I never met him but heard that he was a great guy.
R.I.P. :(
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It appears that only the pilot was on board.
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/01/cirrus-sr22t-n325jk-abide-aviation-llc.html
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/01/cirrus-sr22t-n325jk-abide-aviation-llc.html

The pilots of the fighter jets said they could only see one person on board- the pilot.
 
deonb said:
I see you guys scrambled 2 F16's and then later 2 F15's. What would be the procedure trying to wake him up?

The Cirrus in question had automatic emergency descend, but if the pilot leaned forward on a control it wouldn't have taken effect. But maybe if someone laid down some wake turbulence right in front of him, it could have caused him to shift position, which may have freed the control.

E.g. see the effect on this guy after wake turbulence from a F15 - that could well have shifted the pilot to another position:

No idea if that would have helped - just curious if something like that would ever be purposefully tried? (As a last resort).
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I'd think short of trying to reach him via radio, the only audible option short of explosive ordinance would be close passes or use of afterburner to try and wake him.
 
deonb said:
What would be the procedure trying to wake him up?
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I’m pretty certain once you’ve lost consciousness due to hypoxia, the only waking up comes from O2.

Could be wrong, though.
 
I'm sure he was a great guy. The fact that he was doing a charitable flight to help an animal tells me what I need to know about his character.

That said, it made the decision to go to the flight levels for what was a fairly short flight in a non-pressurized aircraft. While this is legal, it's not a good idea. And yes, I've done it before, and don't plan on doing it again, especially single pilot. In a pressurized aircraft, if the pressurization system fails you have a certain amount of time to put on O2 and get down to a better altitude. Pressurized aircraft also give you a big warning when you get above a particular cabin altitude (in the 414 it's 10k feet, usually 10-12k is the number). So your time of useful consciousness starts ticking then. In a non-pressurized aircraft, you're on O2 and if that fails (either by running out, running low to where your flow goes down, line gets kinked, etc.) you start running into your time of useful consciousness, and unless you're actually checking your pulse-ox as regularly as you should be (which most people don't in my experience), you probably will start feeling good, completely forget about the pulse-ox, and then fall asleep.

Pressurization isn't fool-proof, of course (look at that TBM a few years ago), but it gives you another layer of protection when operating in an inherently hostile environment for our bodies.

We should all be cautious about flight in altitudes where our bodies won't inherently stay awake. This happened to another Cirrus pilot at 15k feet a few years ago as I recall. Unfortunately, it will continue to happen.

RIP, and condolences to the friends and family of someone who seems to have been a great guy.
 
I've never been completely out from hypoxia, but, from what little training that I had in the altitude chamber, showed me that the affects of hypoxia disappear fairly rapidly once O2 is reintroduced. This is assuming that the oxygen deprivation was not long enough to be his demise. So, assuming it was something less than catastrophic that brought the plane down, I would think the pilot would have regained consciousness long enough to at least maneuver enough to be noticeable on the track. I'm betting something more along the lines of a cardiac event. This is most definitely my uneducated opinion. My prayers go out to the pilot and his family. I can only imagine the anguish that they are experiencing.
 
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So Sad!!!

I was told by an Avionics guy that the new Garmin Autopilot has a feature that if a pilot does not respond after a set time the autopilot will descend to a level with higher O2. Hope that is true. It will save lives.
 
Scott@KTYR said:
So Sad!!!

I was told by an Avionics guy that the new Garmin Autopilot has a feature that if a pilot does not respond after a set time the autopilot will descend to a level with higher O2. Hope that is true. It will save lives.
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Yep assuming the pilot had the newest version of Perspective.
 
It's also possible he may have had some other catastrophic medical condition, like a heart attack. We just have no idea at this point.
 
Sac Arrow said:
It's also possible he may have had some other catastrophic medical condition, like a heart attack. We just have no idea at this point.
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one person clearly knows exactly what happened and don't you forget it.
 
Sac Arrow said:
It's also possible he may have had some other catastrophic medical condition, like a heart attack. We just have no idea at this point.
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Certainly possible as well.
 
jordane93 said:
Yep assuming the pilot had the newest version of Perspective.
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It has been around since at least rev 18 (circa 2010 or so). My 2012 has it and I have not update perspective software since new.
 
FlySince9 said:
If it doesn't slam you into a granite cloud, in the process.... Or does it have a way to avoid terrain too? would have to, right?
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It only takes you down so far. I can’t recall off the top of my head but I think lower teens.

At the end of the day you have to balance the low risk of it descending a conscious but very, VERY inattentive pilot into some rare high altitude peaks vs. the potential benefit of avoiding a situation like what just happened here.

The process takes a while, it’s not like it would inadvertently kick on and force you down really quickly into the ground.

Check out this video of the system in action
 
FlySince9 said:
If it doesn't slam you into a granite cloud, in the process.... Or does it have a way to avoid terrain too? would have to, right?
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I would think it would avoid terrain. My 530 garmin tells me when terrain is in front of me.
 
RudyP said:
It only takes you down so far. I can’t recall off the top of my head but I think lower teens.

At the end of the day you have to balance the low risk of it descending a conscious but very, VERY inattentive pilot into some rare high altitude peaks vs. the potential benefit of avoiding a situation like what just happened here.

The process takes a while, it’s not like it would inadvertently kick on and force you down really quickly into the ground.

Check out this video of the system in action
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Wow... that was certainly interesting.
 
RudyP said:
It only takes you down so far. I can’t recall off the top of my head but I think lower teens.

At the end of the day you have to balance the low risk of it descending a conscious but very, VERY inattentive pilot into some rare high altitude peaks vs. the potential benefit of avoiding a situation like what just happened here.

The process takes a while, it’s not like it would inadvertently kick on and force you down really quickly into the ground.

Check out this video of the system in action
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That system only exists on newer Cirri, tho, yes? Do we know what year/model 22 he was flying? As others have suggested, if he's slumped over and leaning on the stick, would that prevent the system from engaging?
 
labbadabba said:
That system only exists on newer Cirri, tho, yes? Do we know what year/model 22 he was flying? As others have suggested, if he's slumped over and leaning on the stick, would that prevent the system from engaging?
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2016 model. So a G5.
 
labbadabba said:
That system only exists on newer Cirri, tho, yes? Do we know what year/model 22 he was flying? As others have suggested, if he's slumped over and leaning on the stick, would that prevent the system from engaging?
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Yes, his 22T definitely had it. It could indeed be defeated by him slumping on a button somewhere. It is also possible to turn off the auto descent mode altogether in the avionics preferences and it will stay off on future flights.
 
RudyP said:
Yes, his 22T definitely had it. It could indeed be defeated by him slumping on a button somewhere. It is also possible to turn off the auto descent mode altogether in the avionics preferences and it will stay off on future flights.
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If I had a plane with that feature and planned to fly in the flight levels, I certainly would not turn that feature off.
 
Stingray Don said:
If I had a plane with that feature and planned to fly in the flight levels, I certainly would not turn that feature off.
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Agreed. I leave mine on (and pretty much don’t venture into FLs anyway because of stories like these). I’m only pointing out that it *can* be disabled. I’m not aware of anyone doing so though.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
because he had passengers flying on an air carrier certificate. Not the same as you sucking oxygen in your personal airplane.
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You sure about that?
The reports don't say anything about passengers, not even a dog. And the plane was an unpressurized Cirrus registered in an private corporation, which suggests there's no air carrier certificate involved. Just a guy the same as me, (hopefully) sucking on oxygen.
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
I'm sure he was a great guy. The fact that he was doing a charitable flight to help an animal tells me what I need to know about his character.

That said, it made the decision to go to the flight levels for what was a fairly short flight in a non-pressurized aircraft. While this is legal, it's not a good idea. And yes, I've done it before, and don't plan on doing it again, especially single pilot. In a pressurized aircraft, if the pressurization system fails you have a certain amount of time to put on O2 and get down to a better altitude. Pressurized aircraft also give you a big warning when you get above a particular cabin altitude (in the 414 it's 10k feet, usually 10-12k is the number). So your time of useful consciousness starts ticking then. In a non-pressurized aircraft, you're on O2 and if that fails (either by running out, running low to where your flow goes down, line gets kinked, etc.) you start running into your time of useful consciousness, and unless you're actually checking your pulse-ox as regularly as you should be (which most people don't in my experience), you probably will start feeling good, completely forget about the pulse-ox, and then fall asleep.

Pressurization isn't fool-proof, of course (look at that TBM a few years ago), but it gives you another layer of protection when operating in an inherently hostile environment for our bodies.

We should all be cautious about flight in altitudes where our bodies won't inherently stay awake. This happened to another Cirrus pilot at 15k feet a few years ago as I recall. Unfortunately, it will continue to happen.

RIP, and condolences to the friends and family of someone who seems to have been a great guy.
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I only know a couple of pilots that own SR-22s with turbochargers, but they both fly them up pretty high most of the time. The MEAs going westbound from where I live are all in the oxygen levels. That's why they own 22Ts. What's the point of having a turbocharged Cirrus and flying it down low?

I have my O2 on above 8000 ft at night and above 10,000 ft in the daytime. I am thinking about making it 8000 ft all the time, just because of my age.
And I use a pulse-oximeter, with a second one in the plane for passengers (I rarely have more than one other person in the plane when O2 is in use though). Cannot understand why anybody wouldn't.

Once again I find it ironic that we have concerns about the reliability and use of O2 systems and their attendant accessories, such as pulse oximeters, and in the same thread commentary about the Cirrus autopilot automatically descending the airplane - a system that must be magnitudes of order more complex as a viable solution.
 
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FlySince9 said:
If it doesn't slam you into a granite cloud, in the process.... Or does it have a way to avoid terrain too? would have to, right?
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All the ADM I've seen will take you to 15,000 ft because that's a safe altitude anywhere in the CONUS
 
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