Spirit Airlines to charge for use of overhead bins

1P on UA every year. Service? Weather messes up connections and most airlines say "tough". Last year weather caused my wife and me to miss our connection to SYD. UA reaction? Hotel room and meal vouchers with seats on the next departure (next day). I have no complaints at all. And now I'm automatically signed up for 1st class upgrades on domestic flights. I don't have to lift a finger (or click a mouse). Nice new touch. Let's hope it works in May on my SFO to SEA leg coming back from TPE.

BTW, can anybody explain ticket price systems? SEA-TPE-SEA in May. Going over is SEA-NRT-TPE, as usual. Priced TPE-NRT-SEA coming home and got a price. System said you can do it for $100 less by going TPE-SFO-SEA. OK. Bought the ticket. Then noticed that there was an additional stop. My TPE-SFO flight stops at NRT and changes planes. So it's $100 cheaper to fly NRT-SFO-SEA than NRT-SEA??? Oh well, I'll take the extra EQM and make 1P for next year just that much quicker. :D
 
Really?

If you did 100 flights on United, for example, you'd be 1K. Service as a 1K is quite excellent, in lots of ways, including usually flying first class, no baggage fees of course, priority checkin, security, and boarding, excellent accommodations in the case of IRROPS (usually already rebooked by the time you walk of the plane), etc.

I would NOT fly SWA or any other low-cost airline like that as a frequent flyer. Their FF programs don't compare to those of AA or UA (seen up in the air?). And trust me, once you're 1K/GS on United, for example, you'll enjoy flying a LOT more.

-Felix

If I did 100 flights on United my company would fire me for excessive airline fees (and rightfully so). Furthermore, I'd have to double my commute time (at a minimum) due to the outdated hub and spoke system compared to direct flights.

Of those perks you listed above, the only one not available on SW is first class. However, they did provide me with my companion pass. A companion pass allows my companion (go figure lol) to travel with me for zero cost except airport fees of about $5.00. The FA's on SW are actually pleasant to fly with. Those on USA and Delta are rarely pleasant (not rude but certainly no enjoyment). I'll stick with SW. YMMV.
 
BTW, can anybody explain ticket price systems? SEA-TPE-SEA in May. Going over is SEA-NRT-TPE, as usual. Priced TPE-NRT-SEA coming home and got a price. System said you can do it for $100 less by going TPE-SFO-SEA. OK. Bought the ticket. Then noticed that there was an additional stop. My TPE-SFO flight stops at NRT and changes planes. So it's $100 cheaper to fly NRT-SFO-SEA than NRT-SEA??? Oh well, I'll take the extra EQM and make 1P for next year just that much quicker. :D
It is a loss, bu they make it up on volume. :skeptical::skeptical:

ORD to NRT costs $4500 on UAL but fly ORD-NRT-SIN which is 7 hours longer and the cost is $3300 :dunno:

I think it is the wheel of airplane fares and not too bright airline management.
 
No argument there. Although I have to say that it doesn't take that much to get to a decent level. And it's absolutely worth it - most people don't realize this.


No, you don't pay for bags even if you have low status, at least on UA. It doesn't take much. Keep in mind that there are quite a few Global Service members, especially out of SFO and LAX. For UA, the crew can certainly tell what your status level is. There's a few stars on the manifest next to your name - **** for GS, *** for 1K, etc. They do treat you better.

That said, flying is much better if you've got status. I just got a $250 certificate because they were unable to accommodate an upgrade for me recently for a 2 hr flight. I got another $350 because a flight from LA to SF I was booked on recently was delayed for 4 hours. Then I was rebooked on the next flight that was already oversold. Most other folks were stranded in LA. Etc. My point is - if things like these fees annoy you (they are annoying!), just stick with one airline for a while. It's not that hard to get some sort of status, and just that little bit will help a lot.

-Felix

Much also depends upon where you are - for most business travel itineraries out of the north Texas area, for example, UAL would be largely useless, unless you opt to change planes. Hence, you are reduced to either flying with AA, or flying Southwest, or committing to changes of plane, which cost time and introduce significant trip-disruption risk.

The principal differentiator I see, though, is the way the carrier handles irregular ops. Because they do not rely upon hub & spoke, and because (as an airline conceived and built upon the needs of business travelers) they typically have significant frequencies on most all city pairs they operate, Southwest has much greater flexibility in handling disruptions at a particular place, and are not nearly as severely impacted by (for example) weather at a particular location.

As a DFW flier, I have been severely impacted by AA's irregular ops policies - they cancel their entire schedule if weather gets marginal here, knowing that as a weather cancellation, they have no obligation to take any measures to accommodate passengers, other than providing them passage on a "next available" basis - which may be several days later. In my relatively-limited airline flying experience, they have still managed to strand me at SNA (I had to buy tickets in America West to get home), San Francisco (I found seats on UAL the next day, where the AA rep claimed no seats on any carrier "...for three days") and Baton Rouge (three clients and I rented a car and drove home rather than wait two days). Other events of similar character, but lesser impact. All, unnecessary with proper management.

There is something sort of pathetic about a customer service model which says, "If you stick with us for a while, we'll treat you decently, but until then, F-off." So, I opt not to reward that attitude with my business, unless obligated to do so. I know many people who ride in the coddling arms of AA elite status, and they are treated well, but no one should be treated with disdain pending achievement of that lofty perch. Since my business travel has never yet taken me out of the country (and is unlikely to do so), if I must fly commercial, I'll take the option which works best, and that will almost always, from here, be the canyon blue 737s, with their greater seat pitch, their never-confiscatory fares, their consistently respectful service and their better-than-the-competition flight completion record. No big first-class seat, and no airport club, but I'd rather fly with the carrier that gets me home so I can be with the family, rather than the carrier that has all the "stuff" which is only useful if you are stuck out in the hinterlands.
 
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Interesting article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/business/07bags.html

I thought it made more sense to me to charge for carryon - to incent people to check more bags. Less crap in the cabin, and the airlines have more control over W&B if they are the ones stowing.

Charging for BOTH checked and carryon is ridiculous though. This article makes me wonder if the airlines initially chose to charge for checked bags knowing that they will free up valuable space for cargo - more money - or if that was a side effect.

I can understand why they would break up the ticket fares this way. Someone who wanted to go truly bare bones would pay just the ticket fee. The airlines made a buttload of money off of checked bags fees, they aren't going away. Get used to it.

Re: the convo about having status on an airline: yes yes yes. Stick with one airline and it's not that hard to do (unless you only travel domestically). I've had status on UA for 3-4 years now and I don't want to go back - and I will do mileage runs just to stay there. Last year I did my first mileage run (3 nights in London to get double miles). In the end I didn't need the double miles to get the bump over, and, had my May trip to France been on UA or US (instead of Air France) I would have not even needed to go to London that weekend (although it was a great excuse! :) ) My November trip to Belgium used miles (no earning) and that was great. Gotta use them sometime.
 
I have meetings in Orlando and will avoid flying into that airport at all costs. I would rather come and go form Tampa with a 2 hour drive than deal with the Disney Mouse Haj passengers!

Agree. Orlando is a cluster**** for business travelers. Took me 45 minutes to get out of the rental car lot a few weeks ago (corporate deal with National). TSA is bad there because there is no elite line.

Tampa's a much better airport.

BTW, can anybody explain ticket price systems? SEA-TPE-SEA in May. Going over is SEA-NRT-TPE, as usual. Priced TPE-NRT-SEA coming home and got a price. System said you can do it for $100 less by going TPE-SFO-SEA. OK. Bought the ticket. Then noticed that there was an additional stop. My TPE-SFO flight stops at NRT and changes planes. So it's $100 cheaper to fly NRT-SFO-SEA than NRT-SEA??? Oh well, I'll take the extra EQM and make 1P for next year just that much quicker. :D

It used to be cheaper for me to fly SAT-CVG-LGW than it was to fly SAT-CVG alone. Fortress hub. Most likely there is more competition on the NRT-SFO route (and certainly there's more competition SFO-SEA) so fares will be cheaper. I'm with you - take the extra qualiifying miles.

I thought it made more sense to me to charge for carryon - to incent people to check more bags. Less crap in the cabin, and the airlines have more control over W&B if they are the ones stowing.

For those of us that travel a lot on business, with one-night stops, carry-on is the only way to go. You add between 45 minutes and an hour to your flight time if you check bags. Checked bags get lost (learned my lesson 15 years ago on a trip to AMS where I arrrived on Sunday for Monday AM meetings - bags didn't show. Fortunately, the Netherlands is much more liberal than, say, Germany and some stores were open.... in Germany fuggedaboutit in terms of shopping on Sunday).

Charging for BOTH checked and carryon is ridiculous though. This article makes me wonder if the airlines initially chose to charge for checked bags knowing that they will free up valuable space for cargo - more money - or if that was a side effect.

The major airlines did. That was part of the reason (aside from the money made from bag fees and the reduction in weight). For Spirit, it's all about fee income. Just like Ryanair.

I can understand why they would break up the ticket fares this way. Someone who wanted to go truly bare bones would pay just the ticket fee. The airlines made a buttload of money off of checked bags fees, they aren't going away. Get used to it.

No, they're not going away, but some of the practices with regard to fees are deceptive. Spirt has already been fined and forced to enter into a consent order with respect to marketing & fees.

It's more like cable, cellphone, and rental cars with the fees. Advertise as low a price as possible, then add hidden or unadvertised fees. I had to pay a $0.26 "state registration fee" on a rental car recently. In addition to a "tire and battery use" fee. Plus taxes & airport costs. The registration and tire/battery fees truly nickle-and-diming for something that really is a cost of doing business.

While the airlines want to keep adding these fees, and while the airlines continue to engage in charging surcharges that are not part of the fare for summer weekends and holiday weekends, they at the same time oppose that kind of demand pricing for access to major airports like JFK. Their management truly talks out of both sides of their mouth - it's OK to stick passengers with demand pricing, but it's blasphemy to suggest that they should pay similar demand pricing for airspace/airports.
 
If I did 100 flights on United my company would fire me for excessive airline fees (and rightfully so). Furthermore, I'd have to double my commute time (at a minimum) due to the outdated hub and spoke system compared to direct flights.

Of those perks you listed above, the only one not available on SW is first class. However, they did provide me with my companion pass. A companion pass allows my companion (go figure lol) to travel with me for zero cost except airport fees of about $5.00. The FA's on SW are actually pleasant to fly with. Those on USA and Delta are rarely pleasant (not rude but certainly no enjoyment). I'll stick with SW. YMMV.

More or less what I was thinking. I fly commercially maybe 3-4 times per year on different routes and generally it's personal travel over varying routes for which using a single airline doesn't make sense. For me to accumulate any sort of reasonable status would take me probably 10-15 years, and that's if I stuck with one carrier, which I don't. Let's look at the last few commercial flights I took:

New York City to Brussels, Belgium
NYC to San Francisco
NYC to Los Angeles
Los Angeles to San Francisco
Williamsport, PA to Dallas, TX

The only carrier who flies out of Williamsport is US Airways. Southwest had, by far, the best rates and times for LAX to SFO, especially when you consider that I booked the tickets about 3 hours prior to takeoff. NYC to LA I took American (bad idea) and NYC to SF I don't remember what I took, I seem to recall it was Continental for some reason. NYC to Brussels, Delta has the best times for non-stop flights.

Since about 95% of my travel is via GA, the only rewards program that makes sense for me is taking good care of my plane.
 
I used to like Spirit, many years ago. This fee is a response to the checked bag fee which savvy flyers were getting around by bringing more carry ons.

Another interesting thing with them happened in the last two days to me first my sister-in-law is selling their virtues to my SO who then want's me to listen since I don't know how to purchase airline tickets. I decine, three different times, explaining I know their schedule, get their emails and actually check their prices on occasion.

So yesterday while waiting at the airport in MYR for a return flight from the weekend I receive an email from them offering .01 flights. So I read the details to the SO, first join the $9 club for $30 a year, then the flight is .01 plus fuel :skeptical:, taxes and fees:D. So they have four examples and the .01 flight costs from ~40 to ~80 each way but of course the examples are not where we would want to go anyways so using the 80 dollar example I recompute our current flight costs for DTW to MYR since that is the only time we've used Spirit.

We had one checked bag this time so 80+ 80 + 45 is 205 for the two of us each way, throw in the $60 fee to join the club and for the same price we flew good old Delta, earned miles and received the first class upgrade and did not have to fly a 6:00 am flight out or a 8:00 om flight back.

So I ended the conversation with tell your sister to book us our next flights and I'll send here the $36.00.:devil:
 
For those of us that travel a lot on business, with one-night stops, carry-on is the only way to go. You add between 45 minutes and an hour to your flight time if you check bags. Checked bags get lost (learned my lesson 15 years ago on a trip to AMS where I arrrived on Sunday for Monday AM meetings - bags didn't show. Fortunately, the Netherlands is much more liberal than, say, Germany and some stores were open.... in Germany fuggedaboutit in terms of shopping on Sunday).

.

I never said I'd stop carrying on. An extra 20 bucks (or 45 for that matter) isn't going to dissuade me. I also know how to carry on properly. I have a 19" Spinner that actually fits under my seat as well as an RJ bin (and that's not easy to find luggage that can - but it does). I pack down to a science and I don't think any other pax could accuse me of infringing on their right to space. Not so much the idiots who carry their lives on board with them. If 45 bucks incents them to check bags, fabulous.
 
...
I can understand why they would break up the ticket fares this way. Someone who wanted to go truly bare bones would pay just the ticket fee. The airlines made a buttload of money off of checked bags fees, they aren't going away. Get used to it.
...


Or, don't fly carriers which charge for checking bags. Sounds, somehow, more honest.
 
Or, don't fly carriers which charge for checking bags. Sounds, somehow, more honest.

Or get status on an airline and it doesn't matter. I don't pay for UA flights, and IIRC I don't think I've paid for checked bags on US flights either, which is a Star Alliance carrier. I didn't for Florida last month, anyway.
 
I pack down to a science and I don't think any other pax could accuse me of infringing on their right to space. Not so much the idiots who carry their lives on board with them.

What absolutely enrages me are the morons who pull out my little backpack to make room for their monstrous wheel-bag that only fits crosswise and then ask 'whose bag is this' with my bag in their hands. And no Taneisha, my bag won't go under the seat in front of me.
 
Or get status on an airline and it doesn't matter. I don't pay for UA flights, and IIRC I don't think I've paid for checked bags on US flights either, which is a Star Alliance carrier. I didn't for Florida last month, anyway.

US messed up last month and charged me to check a bag. Not sure what happened, but I had to check with them in PHX just to get my UA MP number on the itinerary. This after entering it into their kiosk at SEA. Morons. Oh well, my employer paid the fee. I also got hit by Virgin America on the flight home, but I expected that. No status with them. First time flying. And, if they don't fix their @#$%^ computer and finally credit me with the miles on my Elevate account it will be the last.

What absolutely enrages me are the morons who pull out my little backpack to make room for their monstrous wheel-bag that only fits crosswise and then ask 'whose bag is this' with my bag in their hands. And no Taneisha, my bag won't go under the seat in front of me.

And it won't, even if it fits.
 
What absolutely enrages me are the morons who pull out my little backpack to make room for their monstrous wheel-bag that only fits crosswise and then ask 'whose bag is this' with my bag in their hands. And no Taneisha, my bag won't go under the seat in front of me.

I love the people who put their briefcase, suitcase, overcoat, and suit coat all in the overhead bin.
 
I love the people who put their briefcase, suitcase, overcoat, and suit coat all in the overhead bin.

And where would you have them put those things?

Seeing that you have a suitcase, the breifcase should go under the seat in front of you. If the overcoat and suit coat can fit on top of the suitcase then you can put them in the overhead, otherwise...on top of the breifcase or sit on them.

If you don't want to put it under the seat infront of you, then check the bag.
 
Or get status on an airline and it doesn't matter. I don't pay for UA flights, and IIRC I don't think I've paid for checked bags on US flights either, which is a Star Alliance carrier. I didn't for Florida last month, anyway.

Again, making my point precisely. You should not have to "get status" to receive basic customer service.
 
Again, making my point precisely. You should not have to "get status" to receive basic customer service.
Agree. Plus there are enough travelers out there, like me, that simply do not fly enough to get status with anyone. I shouldn't be treated like **** because of it. That just pushes people like me away from commercial.

Now I haven't reviewed all their market research, perhaps customers like me are customers they don't want (unprofitable), they at least make it seem like that's the case.
 
Agree. Plus there are enough travelers out there, like me, that simply do not fly enough to get status with anyone. I shouldn't be treated like **** because of it. That just pushes people like me away from commercial.

Now I haven't reviewed all their market research, perhaps customers like me are customers they don't want (unprofitable), they at least make it seem like that's the case.

+1 on this. If you don't have status you end up coming down the aisle and someone with status has to get up to let you into your seat and then they look at you like you're a big disturbance to them. The whole status thing slows down the boarding process because of this ballet that has to happen.
 
Now I haven't reviewed all their market research, perhaps customers like me are customers they don't want (unprofitable), they at least make it seem like that's the case.
I think that may be very true. I have had more than one airline employee tell that they make almost all their money on transpacific flights from the biz class cabin. If that is filled they will turn a small profit and cover the costs. Getting the coach cabin filled is just a bonus.

And as a status flier I do agree that the 'great unwashed masses' of the non-status fliers are treated as 'great unwashed masses' and that is poor customer service.
 
Seeing that you have a suitcase, the breifcase should go under the seat in front of you. If the overcoat and suit coat can fit on top of the suitcase then you can put them in the overhead, otherwise...on top of the breifcase or sit on them.

If you don't want to put it under the seat infront of you, then check the bag.
No I'm sorry, I'm not going to put my briefcase on the floor nor am I going to sit on my jacket. Yes I will check my suitcase but I'm simply not willing to put my jacket or briefcase in the place that my feet go. The seats and space allocated is simply too small for that.
 
I never said I'd stop carrying on. An extra 20 bucks (or 45 for that matter) isn't going to dissuade me. I also know how to carry on properly. I have a 19" Spinner that actually fits under my seat as well as an RJ bin (and that's not easy to find luggage that can - but it does). I pack down to a science and I don't think any other pax could accuse me of infringing on their right to space. Not so much the idiots who carry their lives on board with them. If 45 bucks incents them to check bags, fabulous.

That's fine for you - it's not for some others. For business travelers, some companies will NOT pay some of these junk fees. And some of those same companies require that you fly the cheapest carrier. (That is, by the way, a big part of the reason that airlines are addicted to fees: corporate travel programs require use of the lowest fare - but don't care about fees... except that some companies won't reimburse the fees. I know of someone who ended up on AirTran due to corporate mandates and couldn't get reimbursed for the fee that AirTran charges to reserve a seat).

Like you, I pack well - I can do 10 days in Europe in a single, legal carry-on. The computer bag or cameras become the personal item. Would I pay $45 for a carry-on or $30 for a checked bag - EACH WAY? Nope, I'd be more likely to fly another carrier. And yes, I have elite status in each of the 3 airline alliances so I am exempt from many fees, but still have to fly non-aligned carriers (like Southwest, JetBlue, etc) from time to time.

It's not like we see fares go down as these fees are added.

Again, making my point precisely. You should not have to "get status" to receive basic customer service.

Agree. That's my biggest reason for maintaining status, and it's my biggest complaint on airlines that I don't have status. It was really painful the first couple of months before I got status on AA - Southwest was far better to fly on without status.

I think that may be very true. I have had more than one airline employee tell that they make almost all their money on transpacific flights from the biz class cabin. If that is filled they will turn a small profit and cover the costs. Getting the coach cabin filled is just a bonus.

And as a status flier I do agree that the 'great unwashed masses' of the non-status fliers are treated as 'great unwashed masses' and that is poor customer service.

That's right about where they make money. And it is the rationale that Delta uses to restrict upgrades on TATL/TPAC flights to the highest coach fares (Y/B/M). And the reason that they further restrict inventory (they'd rather send a flight out with empty J seats than to "give them away" to lower fare upgrades).

UA is planning to remove some of the business class seats from their international fleet and make the space into E+... which will be sold for incremental revenue over regular coach.

These days, however, fees make more money for airlines.

Consider that your standard Business Class fare is about 10x your average coach fare on many transoceanic flights.... some folks buy multiple coach seats to spread out for far less money than J.
 
Well, then I guess we can attribute this to market forces at work and the market will figure out the correct spot to keep the fees (or ditch them).
 
Well, then I guess we can attribute this to market forces at work and the market will figure out the correct spot to keep the fees (or ditch them).

Yep, we can. "Race to the bottom" ;)
 
Agree. Plus there are enough travelers out there, like me, that simply do not fly enough to get status with anyone.
Exactly. Just for kicks I looked up what it takes to get elite status on UAL and it's 25,000 miles or 30 segments in a calendar year. That's quite a bit for someone who only travels for personal reasons, especially if it's all within the country.
 
No I'm sorry, I'm not going to put my briefcase on the floor nor am I going to sit on my jacket. Yes I will check my suitcase but I'm simply not willing to put my jacket or briefcase in the place that my feet go. The seats and space allocated is simply too small for that.

The problem as stated was not with the people who put their breifcase, overcoat and suit coat in the overhead. It is the people who also put a big rolling suitcase up there too and believe that they should get to put all of that up there is RUDE because you are useing up the common space at the expense of the other passengers just so you can have leg room.
 
The problem as stated was not with the people who put their breifcase, overcoat and suit coat in the overhead. It is the people who also put a big rolling suitcase up there too and believe that they should get to put all of that up there is RUDE because you are useing up the common space at the expense of the other passengers just so you can have leg room.

So let's have the airline define how much space they are renting me. I happen to be 6'5" and 250 LBS. I don't have the room to put things under the seat in front of me without having a real problem with where to put my legs and feet. If they don't want me to have a carry on bag then they should define just how much room I'm allow to take up. Is it 1 cubic foot? 2 CF? Tell me and I will make a decision on who to fly with and what to take on board based on that.
 
So let's have the airline define how much space they are renting me. I happen to be 6'5" and 250 LBS. I don't have the room to put things under the seat in front of me without having a real problem with where to put my legs and feet. If they don't want me to have a carry on bag then they should define just how much room I'm allow to take up. Is it 1 cubic foot? 2 CF? Tell me and I will make a decision on who to fly with and what to take on board based on that.

Don't you listen to the pre boarding announments? usually goes something like this:

"This flight is full, please stow your "personal item" (ie purse or briefcase) under the seat infront of you so that we can accomidate carry-on's in the overheads"

You are paying for the tiny seat, want more? go first class. Don't just take the space I paid for.
 
I'm waiting for the airline that introduces bench seats and roller coaster restraints. (Lap bar)
 
I'm waiting for the airline that introduces bench seats and roller coaster restraints. (Lap bar)

If you you get a rude seat-mate it's just about that... don't pull up my armrest so you can spill onto my seat! arm rests should only go up AFTER the cabin door is closed and non one is in the middle seat.
 
If you you get a rude seat-mate it's just about that... don't pull up my armrest so you can spill onto my seat! arm rests should only go up AFTER the cabin door is closed and non one is in the middle seat.

With my 33" waist, I don't spill anywhere.
 
I'm waiting for the airline that introduces bench seats and roller coaster restraints. (Lap bar)

Met an aerospace engineer that worked on a test in China to figure out how many people you can stuff into a 777 using 'leaner' chairs. It's the number of emergency exits that limits the number of pax and protects us from the sadistic impulses of airline managers. If it wasn't for the number of doors, we would have standing-room only in the back of United flights already.
 
So let's have the airline define how much space they are renting me. I happen to be 6'5" and 250 LBS.

1lb more and SW will charge you two seats.
 
You know they could set up 4 sets of bench seats running longitudinally. Sort of like club seating. Since they are doing away with meals now, no need for a tray table.
 
Back when I had a real job (multi-national aerospace company) I hit Elite status on UAL in one week. Of course I did a great deal of commercial flying for business (mostly domestc but a fair amount of over the waters). What's worse, before the frequent flyer concept started, I was flying almost every weekend on business out of Houston. (Leaving Houston is the best part of living in Texas). I probably racked up 100-200K a year.

Cancelled my United VISA card over a charge they wouldn't reverse even tho the vendor stated it should have been reversed.

After 2005 I wasn't traveling UAL due to destinations and without the VISA card, no points on my account. And in 2007 UAL decided to inherit all my miles without letting me know. Yes, I know about the website, but when UAL decided to migrate web-only, there should have been a USPS letter informing me of such.
 
After 2005 I wasn't traveling UAL due to destinations and without the VISA card, no points on my account. And in 2007 UAL decided to inherit all my miles without letting me know. Yes, I know about the website, but when UAL decided to migrate web-only, there should have been a USPS letter informing me of such.
Strangely that's what annoyed me about about UAL too as I was reminded today when I logged on to check how many miles you needed for elite status. There in my account summary it says "Lifetime miles: 1,912" then "Redeemable miles expiration date: Oct 31, 2004". I'm sure I've flown on UAL a couple times since then but I never even bothered with the miles because I figured they would expire anyway, and it definitely isn't an incentive to use them.
 
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