Spirit Airlines Pax Riot

This would be more like a 250hr CPL.

He can fly for hire, but he's still a greenhorn/"intern"

A ATP has some WORKING years and experience behind his ticket, not a intern

Are you kidding? Do you know how many hours a doc has by the time they are done with an internship? Pilots whine. Plenty of professions make you pay your dues. Yes 14k a year was abusive. But that's not today...


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Are you kidding? Do you know how many hours a doc has by the time they are done with an internship? Pilots whine. Plenty of professions make you pay your dues. Yes 14k a year was abusive. But that's not today...


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Sorry bud, but by the time you qualify for a ATP, as in a real ATP, those dues have been paid for
 
Comparing to what a doc puts in isn't a good way to make your case though...


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This would be more like a 250hr CPL.

He can fly for hire, but he's still a greenhorn/"intern"

A ATP has some WORKING years and experience behind his ticket, not a intern


No way man ! Cmon you're comparing an MD to a 250 commercial pilot ???? That intern MD is likely also sitting on a student loan debt that would make an ERAU education look like a cheap date !

It's called paying your dues.
 
Sorry bud, but by the time you qualify for a ATP, as in a real ATP, those dues have been paid for
Meh. 4 years studying airplanes gets you an ATP at 1000 hours. 1500 hours of flight instructing gets you an unrestricted ATP. I got mine with like 1600 and I still barely knew how to fly!
 
No way man ! Cmon you're comparing an MD to a 250 commercial pilot ???? That intern MD is likely also sitting on a student loan debt that would make an ERAU education look like a cheap date !

It's called paying your dues.

Art!!

You were the one who brought MDs into it :)

I'd compare us more to a RN.
 
Meh. 4 years studying airplanes gets you an ATP at 1000 hours. 1500 hours of flight instructing gets you an unrestricted ATP. I got mine with like 1600 and I still barely knew how to fly!

Reported to your employer. You're dangerous. :D

The best part about Spirit is that a lot of the Southwest clientele went there. =D
 
Lots of noise here. Contract this, passenger that. Evil airline, dumb people. SJWs and PDVs.

What if the guy said something along the lines of 'it's time for change in the contract of carriage. I have a family plan for cellphone minutes. I want a family plan for airline tickets!' And thus he is starting the family first ticket movement. Maybe he'll start selling tshirts and bumper stickers...
 
Lots of noise here. Contract this, passenger that. Evil airline, dumb people. SJWs and PDVs.

What if the guy said something along the lines of 'it's time for change in the contract of carriage. I have a family plan for cellphone minutes. I want a family plan for airline tickets!' And thus he is starting the family first ticket movement. Maybe he'll start selling tshirts and bumper stickers...

I think you wandered into the wrong thread, Clark! :D
 
Art!!

You were the one who brought MDs into it :)

I'd compare us more to a RN.

Yes, and that's because MDs when they're interns have schedules and pay comparable (actually somewhat worse) to a regional pilot. You seem to think that being a regional pilot is somehow enormously beneath you and that once you become one that's all you'll ever be. This isn't 2002 anymore.
 
We compare more to a RN, about the same amount of education.

First year or two they don't make much, but after that the pay goes way up, also a seasoned nurse is a seasoned nurse, they can go to different jobs without taking a huge cut based on some "seniority number".
RNs have that arrangement because they don't take crap like pilots do.
We are the reason we have these troubles.
 
My girlfriend is almost done with her intern year as a surgical resident, and lemme tell you guys - I will *never* ***** about my job again. Well, at least not to her! Holy crap...talk about paying your dues...
 
Well apparently you never saw any episodes of their TV series - pretty drama packed ! Kinda like standing in line for a tractor pull or a County mobile home auction.

I've been in one of those lines. Nobody there was stupid enough to throw punches at a Sheriff's deputy if someone said the venue had to close because the workers didn't show up. For good or bad reasons of "not showing up".

Lots of noise here. Contract this, passenger that. Evil airline, dumb people. SJWs and PDVs.

What if the guy said something along the lines of 'it's time for change in the contract of carriage. I have a family plan for cellphone minutes. I want a family plan for airline tickets!' And thus he is starting the family first ticket movement. Maybe he'll start selling tshirts and bumper stickers...

Cell phone companies are NEVER stupid enough to charge less money than it takes to operate their business. They make money. Piles of money. Two of them make it on spectrum they got for free. Massive business plans are their budgetary backbone. Non-business consumers are their gravy. It keeps the employees paid to a fairly nice standard, really. Even the low level ones.

We compare more to a RN, about the same amount of education.

First year or two they don't make much, but after that the pay goes way up, also a seasoned nurse is a seasoned nurse, they can go to different jobs without taking a huge cut based on some "seniority number".
RNs have that arrangement because they don't take crap like pilots do.
We are the reason we have these troubles.

Nurses as a whole are underpaid for the stuff they put up with. It's a good salary, but it takes a special kind of person to do what they do for it. And a very weak or nonexistent gag reflex. LOL. There's also somewhat of a soft cap on nursing. You could be the best nurse on the planet, accolades and awards by heads of state... the company you work for still wouldn't let you get paid much more than a beginning Doc. If more at all. Nurse Practitioners are given the nod to make about 20% more, but they won't go much higher. The Docs get all grumpy.

Of course, the smart first year docs pay attention real close when a 20 year nurse tells them, "No, don't do that to this patient." The dumb ones, throw their weight around and holler that they want their orders followed. It usually works out bad for them, and often also the patient.

My girlfriend is almost done with her intern year as a surgical resident, and lemme tell you guys - I will *never* ***** about my job again. Well, at least not to her! Holy crap...talk about paying your dues...

Even residents are not as abused salary-wise as pro pilots. Yeah, they pay their dues, but they at least get paid for it. They get paid more later, but our psych resident friend is posting daily on FB about putting in offers for houses that cost more than double our house. She ain't hurtin'.

Boston's housing market sounds as bad as here though, with them having made three simultaneous offers at the same time and only getting "invited" to the post-offer bidding war for one of them.

Formal invitations to a bidding war for a house, in Boston. Amazing. And Art thinks the rednecks at the tractor auction are bad. LOL. The "city folk" look like they're having country problems, up there. Haha. I guess if they're wearing nice clothes and eating crackers and sipping on tea, while hoping to enslave themselves for another few years to a banker to get a wooden shoebox to live in, it's different. All civilized-like, up over yonder, there. Hahahahaha.

....

Sometimes I peek at the Commercial pilot boards and what not, with this dumb thought that I should at least look at doing some sort of commercial aviation.

Then I see what cities the newbies get stationed in, schedules are not good for commuters", initial pay lower than a schoolteacher salary with a bonus plan that looks like you'd need six hours in Excel to even figure out odds that you'd get any of it, stories of never ending labor disputes and whining about contracts.

Let's not even get into how senior Denver is, pretty much across the board. Haha. If I look at this stuff out of curiosity, I don't even entertain the idea of anything BUT commuting.

Denver based? ROFLMAO. If I started today, that'd happen at 65. Hahaha.

So there's that.
.....

But let's talk about this goofy-assed "dues paying" stuff...

I did "dues paying" in my biz and got paid lower pay than the senior guys for more work back in the day. A LOT lower.

But my biz never suggested putting me on a base salary below the national poverty line to make their ends meet. They charged enough to not have to ask employees to pretend that was reasonable.

All that were national companies also were REALLY careful to pay what people needed in their MOST EXPENSIVE cities in like jobs, and then adjust some cheaper cities downward a bit from there.

The airlines do that completely upside down and backward. They pay the least they can for the cheapest cost of living cities. And then employees literally claw their way out of the expensive hubs over time. Talk about "Hunger Games"...

In a nearly natural monopoly market like telecom, extremely commodity-like, we all just merge into three big companies and buy Congresscritters, and send out $150/month cell phone bills.

Telecom knows how to get everyone paid. We have starting call center workers paid better than your FOs, airlines. Seriously. Most telecom stocks pay dividends.

Clark's idea sounds crazy, but putting business fliers on monthly membership plans isn't the worst idea I've ever heard... if you want that business segment. Managers of short notice business travel groups would kill for a fixed travel budget number every year. Even if priced high enough their staff had to go on the road more than not. Our little fifteen engineer team would have definitely used something like that if it existed back in the day.

You think that smartphone in your pocket actually takes $150/mo in network resources?! Not a chance.
 
The "Sheeple" are [too]slowly learning that no matter which airline they choose they are screwed.
 
Even residents are not as abused salary-wise as pro pilots. Yeah, they pay their dues, but they at least get paid for it. They get paid more later, but our psych resident friend is posting daily on FB about putting in offers for houses that cost more than double our house. She ain't hurtin'.

I guess psych residents get paid well! My gf doesn't make a lot of money, although when I talked about paying dues, I meant the schedule. Six days a week at a minimum of 12 hours per day, with many days going a few hours long. She gets four weeks of vacation per year, but they made her take it all in one clump back in September. So since October 1st, she has *never* had more than a single day off at a time, and every time she's at work it's for at least 12 hours. It's like she's being hazed. But as she'll tell you, if you want to be a surgeon, it's what you've gotta do.
 
A huge pay cut that gets made up by year 2 at any legacy
No it doesn't. Ever heard of time value of money? I recognize you re a young guy who thinks a lost decade outcome will never be part of your career outcome, and that you'll only work for a regional for 3 years before gaining a seniority number at mainline. statistically that assumes facts not in evidence.

There is a huge opportunity cost to waiting until your late 30s to make a 120k/yr as a head of household, after a two decades of sub median national income when amortized for training and college years. Plug it on an excel sheet and find out for yourself. Youre better off making 60k for the same 20 years when you account for TVM. Any retirement calculator online could bear this out for you. And Lord help you if you get furloughed at the mainline level in your 40s; those lifetime earning income projections go right out the window.

So no, it's not anywhere in the vicinity of made up for it. Also recognize that as opposed to the nurse, the regional airline pilot is told in no uncertain terms there is zero guarantee they'll make it to mainline, absent an equally protracted flow through agreement (also ammendable in bankruptcy mind you). The nurse WILL have guaranteed income portability and income progression as a function of years worked, period dot. Your experience level at the regionals is fixed in value and non portable as a function of longevity. That's an especially lousy deal vocationally speaking, considering our fixed human lifespan.

No doubt there's money to be made, but the math favors the lower income capped career that has you making money earlier, which is the opposite of the airline pilot career compensation amortization schedule. No dog in the fight, just keeping it 100 regarding the math.
 
Almost 900 million people managed to get somewhere domestically on an airline in 2015. Most of those weren't "screwed". I think that's a bit much.

The system is miserable even when it "works," and even when the airline employees usually aren't miserable (i.e. Southwest). There are multiple reasons for that misery, and not all of them are the fault of the airlines.

As for pay and QOL, I say the same thing to everyone: You chose the profession, and you had a responsibility to acquire a sense of what you were stepping into before you did it. If you don't like it, get out. If you want to make more money at it, pick up opportunities to do so on your days off (working for the airline or somewhere else) just like every other normal working person has to do. I doubt you'll get much sympathy from the MD who spent 7 years in school + residency and is only pulling in $75k/year after 15 or 20 years... and that's a lot of them.

Nevertheless, there is a reason why employees at some carriers (such as SWA and DAL) seem to be happier than employees at others, and it boils down to how they're treated by management. If you create a difficult and disrespectful culture, you're going to get difficult and demanding employees who look to squeeze as much as they can from the company, even if customers get caught in the crossfire. Unfortunately, most of the industry seems to be run by folks who either don't understand that, or don't care.


JKG
 
No it doesn't. Ever heard of time value of money? I recognize you re a young guy who thinks a lost decade outcome will never be part of your career outcome, and that you'll only work for a regional for 3 years before gaining a seniority number at mainline. statistically that assumes facts not in evidence.

There is a huge opportunity cost to waiting until your late 30s to make a 120k/yr as a head of household, after a two decades of sub median national income when amortized for training and college years. Plug it on an excel sheet and find out for yourself. Youre better off making 60k for the same 20 years when you account for TVM. Any retirement calculator online could bear this out for you. And Lord help you if you get furloughed at the mainline level in your 40s; those lifetime earning income projections go right out the window.

So no, it's not anywhere in the vicinity of made up for it. Also recognize that as opposed to the nurse, the regional airline pilot is told in no uncertain terms there is zero guarantee they'll make it to mainline, absent an equally protracted flow through agreement (also ammendable in bankruptcy mind you). The nurse WILL have guaranteed income portability and income progression as a function of years worked, period dot. Your experience level at the regionals is fixed in value and non portable as a function of longevity. That's an especially lousy deal vocationally speaking, considering our fixed human lifespan.

No doubt there's money to be made, but the math favors the lower income capped career that has you making money earlier, which is the opposite of the airline pilot career compensation amortization schedule. No dog in the fight, just keeping it 100 regarding the math.

Sounds pretty grim......At Delta I believe we're hiring around 60 pilots a month. I observe that roughly 75 to 80% are coming from the regionals. My friend at United reports similar numbers. I don't know about American or FedEx but I can't imagine they're too much difference in their hiring situations.

If you get "stuck" at a regional with those kind of stats going on "There's something SERIOUSLY WRONG with you !!!"
 
No it doesn't. Ever heard of time value of money? I recognize you re a young guy who thinks a lost decade outcome will never be part of your career outcome, and that you'll only work for a regional for 3 years before gaining a seniority number at mainline. statistically that assumes facts not in evidence.

There is a huge opportunity cost to waiting until your late 30s to make a 120k/yr as a head of household, after a two decades of sub median national income when amortized for training and college years. Plug it on an excel sheet and find out for yourself. Youre better off making 60k for the same 20 years when you account for TVM. Any retirement calculator online could bear this out for you. And Lord help you if you get furloughed at the mainline level in your 40s; those lifetime earning income projections go right out the window.

So no, it's not anywhere in the vicinity of made up for it. Also recognize that as opposed to the nurse, the regional airline pilot is told in no uncertain terms there is zero guarantee they'll make it to mainline, absent an equally protracted flow through agreement (also ammendable in bankruptcy mind you). The nurse WILL have guaranteed income portability and income progression as a function of years worked, period dot. Your experience level at the regionals is fixed in value and non portable as a function of longevity. That's an especially lousy deal vocationally speaking, considering our fixed human lifespan.

No doubt there's money to be made, but the math favors the lower income capped career that has you making money earlier, which is the opposite of the airline pilot career compensation amortization schedule. No dog in the fight, just keeping it 100 regarding the math.
Sure if you don't try. I'm lucky to be in one of the best hiring waves and hopefully won't have to endure what most have in this career. I see guys all the time say I can't afford it. I ask them if they've even tried to interview at places like JetBlue and their answer is always no. Let them decide they won't hire you. Of course you won't make any more money if you don't try. You take a pay hit year one and you're back to what you were making as a captain at your regional. No one can "afford" to make the pay cut. If you don't try, you'll never know if can make it. Think of the opportunity cost if you stick it at out same job without ever attempting to make the jump to any legacy. You'll lose out on a decent chunk of change.
 
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Anyone else think Spirit employees look like they work for Hertz?
I think it was back in the 80s when Hertz had some seriously BAD neckties. I almost couldn't keep a straight face at the rental counter when I was picking up a car one time.
 
I guess psych residents get paid well! My gf doesn't make a lot of money, although when I talked about paying dues, I meant the schedule. Six days a week at a minimum of 12 hours per day, with many days going a few hours long. She gets four weeks of vacation per year, but they made her take it all in one clump back in September. So since October 1st, she has *never* had more than a single day off at a time, and every time she's at work it's for at least 12 hours. It's like she's being hazed. But as she'll tell you, if you want to be a surgeon, it's what you've gotta do.

Yeah I knew, but many were comparing it to airlines, and "hazing" while getting *reasonable* pay isn't what airlines do.

I don't think Docs, even residents, are making what residents made in 1991. :)

Today's base regional salaries are IDENTICAL numbers to what Mesa was paying in the 1990s! LOL. $35K. Flying Beech 1900s.

The recent bonus structure changes to make initial salaries look competitive, really only started happening, twenty years after that. Can you imagine any professional job paying exactly what it did twenty years ago at the entry level?

Airlines have somehow managed to squeeze every single drop out of everything for a quarter century. Now they're trying to squeeze blood from a turnip at this point. It's amazingly impressive really, but something has to give. There isn't anything left to cut.

Hell, I remember when folks thought the old America West flying their old 737-200s into the 90s was cheaping out. Hahaha. Turns out they weren't even CLOSE to the cost cutting about to come.

I mean, we all can make fun of Spirit's passengers today, but how much did their little pilot pay tiff just cost the city of Ft Lauderdale in Police overtime? Riots in airports over flight cancellations because they can't pay pilots?

Is that the next new normal?

.....

Hey, when she does finish up, and she will... hang in there... don't fall into the Doc trap. That first paycheck looks an awful lot like a new car or a big house. Heh.

Don't do it! Pretend you're still broke and pay off her student loans. :) Then ... pay cash for the BMW.
 
I'll probably get yelled at but Southwest is not too far behind in the classy passenger category !

Think what you want, but more and more enlightened business folks are flying WN as the legacy airlines cut back services, cram in more seats, and try to become Spirit clones. The product on the mainlines in coach is worse than WN, and if you're going to have to fly in coach anyway (corporate policy and/or fewer upgrades) you're better off on Southwest.

Just look at AA's announcement last week that they're going to have seat pitch of 29 in parts of the steerage cabin and that those seats are NOT set aside for the cheapest fares (meaning I could buy a last minute coach fare on a transcon and be stuck in one of those seats). No bueno.
 
Think what you want, but more and more enlightened business folks are flying WN as the legacy airlines cut back services, cram in more seats, and try to become Spirit clones. The product on the mainlines in coach is worse than WN, and if you're going to have to fly in coach anyway (corporate policy and/or fewer upgrades) you're better off on Southwest.

Just look at AA's announcement last week that they're going to have seat pitch of 29 in parts of the steerage cabin and that those seats are NOT set aside for the cheapest fares (meaning I could buy a last minute coach fare on a transcon and be stuck in one of those seats). No bueno.
So you're saying south west is the best choice among crappy travel options. Sure sounds about right. Now that everyone is going cheap sw looks alright.
 
Sure if you don't try. I'm lucky to be in one of the best hiring waves and hopefully won't have to endure what most have in this career. I see guys all the time say I can't afford it. I ask them if they've even tried to interview at places like JetBlue and their answer is always no. Let them decide they won't hire you. Of course you won't make any more money if you don't try. You take a pay hit year one and you're back to what you were making as a captain at your regional. No one can "afford" to make the pay cut. If you don't try, you'll never know if can make it. Think of the opportunity cost if you stick it at out same job without ever attempting to make the jump to any legacy. You'll lose out on a decent chunk of change.

I know it's reality and you're living it, so no disrespect intended in this comment...

But I can't think of a single time in my career where a larger more successful company made me a job offer that was lower than the salary at my previous employer.

That's so disrespectful, I'd have literally told them to screw themselves, and walked out of the interview.

Heck, the company I'm at NOW is a tiny company and they had to make a much *bigger* cash offer than normal because they have very poor bennies, to get me there.

More risk for me, lower bennies than any other tech place I've worked at? You betcha I'm expecting a higher cash salary offer.

(The place has turned out to be pretty nifty and there's been other intangibles from going back into small biz, which I personally like, but brass tax is still brass tax. Cash on the barrel head.)

That's how it works away from the reality warp that somehow wraps itself around airlines. It's impressive. In normal business, you "pay your dues" once. In aviation, you get insulted and asked to pay them every time you move up. So strange.
 
So you're saying south west is the best choice among crappy travel options. Sure sounds about right. Now that everyone is going cheap sw looks alright.

Let's say the mainlines didn't "go cheap" twenty years ago. Which they did. But...

What does a mainline old school U.S. carrier currently offer that is worth, whatever price delta you want to give them... say 20%... over Southwest's current low fare product? Limit the answer to domestic flights.

A ticket to go from point A to point B is $100 on SWA and $120 on UA or AA.

Tell me as a passenger what I get for my $20 between those two today?

Bags are included in both. Seats are about as uncomfortable either way. Everything is booked completely full. Equipment is all either pretty old or is new and has smaller seat pitch. Flight attendants are about as equally surly or nice depending on their mood.

Where's the value add?

You specifically went after SWA so the answer has to be limited to them, but I can see a bit of a valid point as you go lower down the price point from SWA into the dregs of discount carriers.

Even just dropping down to the Republic price point from SWA -- the seats do get truly awful on the new Airbus equipment. But even those are tolerable for a few hours. (If you haven't seen these things on the Frontier Airbus fleet yet, they're the closest thing to patio furniture I've seen yet in an airliner. Metal frame with a 1/2 cushion strapped to them like my iron patio furniture.)

But I'm not seeing it at the SWA price point. SWA hasn't (yet) started installing torture devices in the cabin.

And yeah, I still flew em. The red eye from here to Florida at midnight was like $150. I can buy a lot of vacation drinks and dinners for the delta between that and SWA even, who was pricing out at $500. UA and AA weren't even in the ballpark at $900 or more and only one non-stop per day.

After learning of the torture seats, I probably wouldn't do poor destroyed Frontier again. They were that bad. But... $350 for three hours of a reasonable seat cushion on the seat frame, or just learn to bring a pillow like I would if I drove to Florida? I'm adaptable. Ha.

I could have taken a UA 787 with a stop in Houston for $1200. Trust me, haven't seen one so I was actually tempted for about ten seconds. Then I realized how many fruity drinks $1050 would buy me. And double that, since the Mrs also likes vacations and fruity drinks. And beer. LOL.
 
Hey, when she does finish up, and she will... hang in there... don't fall into the Doc trap. That first paycheck looks an awful lot like a new car or a big house. Heh.

Haha - thanks for the tip. It won't be any trouble to hang in there - she's worth it! And not just because of the whole doctor thing - anyone that can deal with my dumb ass is a keeper!
 
So you're saying south west is the best choice among crappy travel options. Sure sounds about right. Now that everyone is going cheap sw looks alright.
Let's see. With Southwest, you have more legroom than coach on the legacies. You don't have the same policies book, they make the effort to work with you, IME. Still free peanuts or another snack. Free checked first bag. Pax and crew that seem glad to be flying. If you need to cancel a flight, the value is retained with no fees and can be applied later. No change fees, just pay the fare difference.
 
Let's say the mainlines didn't "go cheap" twenty years ago. Which they did. But...

What does a mainline old school U.S. carrier currently offer that is worth, whatever price delta you want to give them... say 20%... over Southwest's current low fare product? Limit the answer to domestic flights.

A ticket to go from point A to point B is $100 on SWA and $120 on UA or AA.

Tell me as a passenger what I get for my $20 between those two today?

Bags are included in both. Seats are about as uncomfortable either way. Everything is booked completely full. Equipment is all either pretty old or is new and has smaller seat pitch. Flight attendants are about as equally surly or nice depending on their mood.

Where's the value add?

You specifically went after SWA so the answer has to be limited to them, but I can see a bit of a valid point as you go lower down the price point from SWA into the dregs of discount carriers.

Even just dropping down to the Republic price point from SWA -- the seats do get truly awful on the new Airbus equipment. But even those are tolerable for a few hours. (If you haven't seen these things on the Frontier Airbus fleet yet, they're the closest thing to patio furniture I've seen yet in an airliner. Metal frame with a 1/2 cushion strapped to them like my iron patio furniture.)

But I'm not seeing it at the SWA price point. SWA hasn't (yet) started installing torture devices in the cabin.

And yeah, I still flew em. The red eye from here to Florida at midnight was like $150. I can buy a lot of vacation drinks and dinners for the delta between that and SWA even, who was pricing out at $500. UA and AA weren't even in the ballpark at $900 or more and only one non-stop per day.

After learning of the torture seats, I probably wouldn't do poor destroyed Frontier again. They were that bad. But... $350 for three hours of a reasonable seat cushion on the seat frame, or just learn to bring a pillow like I would if I drove to Florida? I'm adaptable. Ha.

I could have taken a UA 787 with a stop in Houston for $1200. Trust me, haven't seen one so I was actually tempted for about ten seconds. Then I realized how many fruity drinks $1050 would buy me. And double that, since the Mrs also likes vacations and fruity drinks. And beer. LOL.

Well I agree with your entire post. My point was that what was once a no frills economy carrier is now the best game in town. It's kinda sad air travel has become what it is today.
 
I know it's reality and you're living it, so no disrespect intended in this comment...

But I can't think of a single time in my career where a larger more successful company made me a job offer that was lower than the salary at my previous employer.

That's so disrespectful, I'd have literally told them to screw themselves, and walked out of the interview.

Heck, the company I'm at NOW is a tiny company and they had to make a much *bigger* cash offer than normal because they have very poor bennies, to get me there.

More risk for me, lower bennies than any other tech place I've worked at? You betcha I'm expecting a higher cash salary offer.

(The place has turned out to be pretty nifty and there's been other intangibles from going back into small biz, which I personally like, but brass tax is still brass tax. Cash on the barrel head.)

That's how it works away from the reality warp that somehow wraps itself around airlines. It's impressive. In normal business, you "pay your dues" once. In aviation, you get insulted and asked to pay them every time you move up. So strange.
Absolutely. I'm not sure why the airlines are a special case. Perhaps someone with way more experience can chime in to explain it.
 
My friend easily made seventy last year at republic, between per diem and picking up a few flights and on top of that a 12k signing bonus... def an improving situation...


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I think your friend is exagerating. Republic pays crap.
 
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I saw a news story a number of years on how SWA could do it. Turns out they made a long term fuel contract that locked in prices just before they went way up.

Don't know if that's still the case, but it gave them a big head start.
 
Absolutely. I'm not sure why the airlines are a special case. Perhaps someone with way more experience can chime in to explain it.
Airlines argue the first year pay being non-linearly below the prevailing wage rates of subsequent years, has to do with their recoupment of your initial equipment training costs. A specious argument at best, considering a competing airline would still be forced to retrain you even while in possession of the equipment type rating from another employer, effectively negating the incentive to job hop as a junior guy.

Imo this is one of few instances where management and senior pilots are in collusion. Management would be likely to agree to a linear normalizing of first year pay if it was cost neutral aka skim from the top. But those "pay your dues!" bitter senior pilots are having none of it. That's the nasty underbelly of the seniority system. Brotherhood is paper thin. If you were to extrapolate that dynamic to the system in the aggregate, you begin to understand the complicity mainline pilots have in the apartheid that befalls on 50% of the national domestic lift. Nasty little dynamic nobody wants to own up to. Giving away scope for the preservation of mainline paychecks is at the heart of this question. It's also fighting words amongst mainline pilots when uttered by critical regional pilots. Also note on here how lifers are quickly discredited and lampooned as being deserving of such apartheid treatment if they are unable to move on to mainline. Typical victim blaming.
 
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