Spin Recovery Training... and my first (not-so) aerobatic lesson

Discussion in 'Aerobatics' started by Cajun_Flyer, Aug 18, 2017.

  1. Cajun_Flyer

    Cajun_Flyer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2015
    Messages:
    1,706
    Location:
    New England
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cajun Flyer
    So I finally bit the bullet and signed up for the spin recovery course offered at my school. The guy who teaches it is actually the same guy who did my checkride. He offers the instruction in a Super Decathlon and at the end of the course, students are given the opportunity to perform some light aerobatics - rolls and loops and such.

    We spent about two hours on the ground and then, once airborne, started out with stalls, p-factor and g-force demonstrations, and then did ~10 spins of different varieties (1G, Beggs Mueller, Base-to-Final, etc). He let me do a full turn a couple times, because apparently I find it massively fun to spin round and round while staring straight down at the ground. :eek:

    The good news - I never got even slightly nauseous and the g-forces didn't bother me... I just kept my stomach tight to keep bloodflow to my head and all was good. Most importantly - I learned A LOT. I really wish I had done this sooner!

    The bad news - After over an hour of that, I was pretty tired and not feeling adventurous to try any more new crazy things... so no rolls or loops for me.

    Lame, I know. :(

    But, here's the thing - I really want to try those things now. That's bad right?! Like the fact that I can't stop thinking about it means I probably have some kind of sickness?

    My one big hangup - and I think a big part of why I opted out at the end, is that, save for my terrifying experience during underwater egress training, I realized at some point that I've actually never been inverted before... never ridden on an upside-down roller coaster, never even done a headstand... and the idea of being so was just something I couldn't get my head around.

    I'm sure I can get past this inverted aversion and once I do, I'll have as much fun with loops and rolls as I did with spins. But how?! Any tips or tricks?

    Other than that, though, I had a blast! :D

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    8,511
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Well, outside of taking prescription pills for nausea, try and relax. Won't know how your body will react to upset recovery until you go out and do it. Both Bob Hoover and Chuck Yeager got air sick on their early aerobatic flights but over a period of time and practice it went away.

    Flight experience won't matter when it comes to getting sick either. You could have a 10,000 hr pilot who's never done acro and puke his guts out or a 10 hr student who's never done acro and be completely fine. Heck, I work with a dude who has thousands of hours but gets sick every time we go to sim training. Dramamine, ginger root, electric shock watch, none of that stuff works for him. For some, the conflict of what the brain sees and what the inner ear is telling it, is just too powerful.

    Good luck with it. I keep my Glasair around just for the occasional loop / roll. It's a blast.
     
  3. Cajun_Flyer

    Cajun_Flyer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2015
    Messages:
    1,706
    Location:
    New England
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cajun Flyer

    I think you misread... I never got at all nauseous! I have a stomach of steel when it comes to that kind of thing. My issue is more getting past the idea of being upside down. I'm sure once I do it one time, I'll be fine.
     
  4. DGlaeser

    DGlaeser Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2008
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    Rochester Hills, MI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DGlaeser
    Do a couple of rolls - easy stuff, and I'll bet you keep going. Loops will generate more Gs than spins or rolls. Inverted flight is definitely different, be sure you have the seat belts TIGHT. It is not the same kind of feeling you get in egress training - for one thing, you are in control!
    The tired feeling is also quite usual. Your body is working hard, even though you are strapped to your seat :)
     
  5. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    8,511
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Ok, I guess I misunderstood. I thought you were worried of flying inverted for sickness vs a fear or something.

    Personally, I've done countless spins never once felt nauseous. Done 30 minutes straight of acro with inverted and I was "done" by the end of that. Whole different ballgame.
     
  6. CC268

    CC268 En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    2,923
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    CC268
    I'm the same way aerobatics doesn't make me sick at all. I did a ton of inverted flight in the Pitts and thought it was a blast. Pulling 4-5 Gs all day long it doesn't bug me.
     
  7. Ryanb

    Ryanb En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    4,965
    Location:
    SE Tennessee
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan
    Fun isn't it?! I remember my first spin thinking, "this isn't as bad as I thought." The first time I did loops and rolls, I didn't get sick either. Rollercoasters don't bother me and basic Acro isn't too much different.

    Glad you got to experience it all in a Super D. Such a great airplane!
     
  8. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2013
    Messages:
    12,537
    Location:
    North Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    6PC
    The first time you do a roll right away you'll go oh my gosh that was nothing. Loops on the other hand give me the heebie-jeebies
     
  9. CC268

    CC268 En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    2,923
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    CC268
    My biggest fear with a loop is a mid air with someone. Happened here at Lake Pleasant years ago with a guy on a Cub and a Glider.
     
  10. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    8,511
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Gotta leave the canopy open on the Grumman during the loop. The fresh air has a calming effect.
     
    SixPapaCharlie likes this.
  11. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    6,009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PaulS
    That sounds cool, go back and do the rest, that sounds like a lot for the first time. This is on my bucket list. Great job.
     
    Cajun_Flyer likes this.
  12. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Final Approach

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Messages:
    8,722
    Location:
    Southeast Tennessee
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    This page intentionally left blank
    Have him do a couple of aileron rolls with you 1st, they're fun, low/no G, and benign. If you're cool with that, move on to loops and barrels. Don't know if he'll let you snap the Decathlon, but I thought snaps were fun.

    EDIT: Oh, and go home and do some head/hand stands against the wall.
     
  13. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,127
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    455 Bravo Uniform
    Just do it! You did the underwater egress thing and you're worried about this? Common now...suck it up. Seriously. My only advice.

    Also, upside down is just relative. The only time you'd "feel" upside down is with negative Gs while inverted? (Is this incorrect, for all you experts?). Otherwise, it's just a visual thing. Close your eyes for the first one maybe? I dunno.
     
  14. GeorgeC

    GeorgeC Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    2,025
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    GeorgeC
    I thought loops and rolls were easier than spins.
     
    Maciej likes this.
  15. nauga

    nauga Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Messages:
    1,576
    Location:
    Rockwood Storage Facility
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Nighttime Severe
    Not specific to inverted stuff, but that's where it affected me the worst initially: Acro definitely requires acclimation - you eventually 'get used to it'. Just starting out, avoid moving your head 'out of plane', e.g. during a straight pull-up don't turn your head left or right. The precession will **** with your inner ear and aggravate disorientation. I found it helpful during my first loops to look up to see the horizon coming over the top. As you get more comfortable, you can start moving around a little more.

    Eventually you can get to a point where you can loop and roll while twisting around to look over your shoulder and reversing without a second thought. :eek::rolleyes:

    Nauga,
    and his octaflugeron
     
    Cajun_Flyer likes this.
  16. N659HB

    N659HB Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,898
    Location:
    The True Southeast
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    No. 1 son
    Awesome! Maybe the next Patty Wagstaff?
     
    Cajun_Flyer likes this.
  17. Cajun_Flyer

    Cajun_Flyer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2015
    Messages:
    1,706
    Location:
    New England
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cajun Flyer
    That's what the instructor was telling me too.

    Good advice and what I need to hear! :)

    Thanks, all. I am going to an amusement park this weekend... maybe I'll test the waters with a rollercoaster, although amusement park rides make me nervous as hell. Just don't trust their construction or the folks maintaining them. o_O
     
    nauga likes this.
  18. eman1200

    eman1200 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    7,655
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    eman1200
    Quit bein such a girlie girl.
     
    Cajun_Flyer and SixPapaCharlie like this.
  19. luvflyin

    luvflyin En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    3,782
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
     
    Cajun_Flyer likes this.
  20. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    3,595
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    I feel a hell of lot more comfortable (and safer) in an airplane doing aerobatics than on any amusement park ride. It's not the same thing at all imo. But if it helps you ease your way towards doing unusual attitudes, go for it.

    Personally, I suspect if you just get in the airplane and do one roll, you won't want to quit.
     
    Cajun_Flyer and GeorgeC like this.
  21. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    15,665
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Throttle
    You didn't push one of the spins inverted? It's sorta fun.
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  22. somorris

    somorris Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,156
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    somorris
    Hang in there -- you will get past the inverted aversion :) then look out world!
     
    Cajun_Flyer likes this.
  23. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    1,713
    Location:
    Marietta, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dave Theisen
    I'm sure your husband will enjoy that. :)

    Cajun, you rock! Go for that next flight, you'll love it!
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
    Cajun_Flyer and SixPapaCharlie like this.
  24. nauga

    nauga Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Messages:
    1,576
    Location:
    Rockwood Storage Facility
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Nighttime Severe
    Spins are a good starting point for aerobatics 'cause you're not likely to dump out of a spin into a loop or roll. ;)

    Nauga,
    the fidgety spinner
     
    G-Man, deonb and Cajun_Flyer like this.
  25. jimhorner

    jimhorner Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2012
    Messages:
    281
    Location:
    Santa Clara
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jim Horner
    Didn't see anyone mention this yet, maybe I missed it, but you won't likely get any feeling of hanging from your straps if you are doing just loops and aileron rolls. Maybe a little bit at the top of the loop, but, in general, these are positive G manuvers. Now, a slow roll will have you hanging from the straps.

    Inverted, negative G manuvers do take a while to get used to. I'm still working on that. When getting an aerobatic checkout to get solo aerobatic privileges in Palo Alto's West Valley Flying Club's Decathlon, we tried an inverted spin. Not fun at all, really. Felt more like just falling and tumbling than a spin. Add to that the hanging from the straps, and it wasn't something I really enjoyed.

    My instructor has over 20,000 hours, with quite a bit of fun type of aerobatics, and he doesn't enjoy the neg-g stuff either. No big deal if you don't. It's still possible to have lots of fun with loops, spins, aileron rolls, and the like without doing the hanging from your straps stuff.

    Sustained inverted flight is also a challenge. I've got over 900 hours in upright flight, and only a few minutes inverted. Quite a challenge. Left stick to turn left, but right rudder to keep coordinated. Not what I'm used to. Plus, the sky/ground sight picture is totally different, and it's hard to know how much to push. All the while you're hanging from your straps.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    Cajun_Flyer likes this.
  26. Cajun_Flyer

    Cajun_Flyer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2015
    Messages:
    1,706
    Location:
    New England
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cajun Flyer
    I actually think at least one of them did... felt and looked like we were beyond just straight up and down a couple of times.
     
  27. whifferdill

    whifferdill Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    922
    Location:
    NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    whifferdill
    Sounded like he was talking about a crossover, which is a demonstration of what can happen if you use way too much forward stick during the recovery of a normal upright spin. The airplane can quickly transition into an inverted spin. Mandatory training for any acro pilot. Quite a few acro pilots have died because they did not recognize a crossover spin, or know what to do about it. Your instructor may or may not be willing to do this in the Super D depending on how concerned they are about sloshing fuel in the tanks too violently. Common problem with Decathlons until ACA redesigned the tanks some years back.

    Anyway, I'm pretty sure you were just doing regular upright spins, which will momentarily transition through an inverted attitude during the incipient phase, due to the forward trajectory of the airplane. Excellent decision on undertaking this type of training! Hope to see progress updates.
     
    yhuubert likes this.
  28. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,127
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    455 Bravo Uniform
    After @CC268 's acrobatics thread I started looking at schools near me. This one has neat onboard vid of a flight with a number of different maneuvers with a passenger squealing in delight (I think it's cute, others may find it annoying). You'll see rolls and loops without any negative Gs (you're upside down but gravity feels normal...so if you closed your eyes). At the 14 minute mark, they do a neg G maneuver.

    I don't know how to embed the vid, but if you go here, it's on the webpage:
    http://grayout.com/ultimate_rides

    Have fun and be sure to post back here.
     
    CC268 likes this.
  29. yhuubert

    yhuubert Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2014
    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    Tallinn, Estonia
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    yhuubert
    Statistically I've seen more people feel sick from rolls than loops. Quite often the world spinning in front of you and the brain to body disconnect from that is bigger in rolls than the G's in a loop, especially when you just keep looking to one wingtip or sight.
     
  30. brian]

    brian] Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2014
    Messages:
    1,455
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    brian]
    or just vomit "up"...
     
  31. Eagledriver65th

    Eagledriver65th Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2017
    Messages:
    28
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    EagleDriver65th
    I've been teaching aerobatics for almost 40 years now, including my time as an IP in the Air Force. I flew the T-37 and T-38 as a cadet and as an IP, the F-15C operationally, and I have owned a couple of Super Decathlons (one of my favorite planes!) a Pitts S2B, an Extra and a Laser, besides the Stearman and T-6D I currently own. I also have flown a number of warbirds with the CAF, including the P-51D in airshows, and the Spitfire MkIX and Vampire purely for fun.
    If you handled 10 spins at one gulp, you will have no problem whatsoever with Super Decathlon aerobatics! Barrel rolls are one G maneuvers- I used to have students close their eyes and tell me if we were doing anything aerobatic- a properly flown barrel roll can't be felt, it is a very gentle, constant G maneuver.
    Snap rolls are just horizontal spins- I can't remember the recommended entry speed in the 8KCAB, but I'm guessing I usually use about 80-85 knots, bring the stick back sharply while you bury the left rudder to the floor...the plane will revolve around in a fairly sloppy manner. I used to do these in our family Champ and various C150's as a teenager all the time, although you slow it down to about 60 kias. (C150's were much younger then, I am NOT recommending that you do this...one of the crazy things I did in my youth. Looped them, too, the doors pop open at the bottom...don't do that)
    Aileron rolls take coordination to do well, hesitation rolls even more so.
    Unfortunately, one of my favorite maneuvers, the tail slide, is not permitted in the Super D...pulling 5 G's to the vertical, at 400 knots, then selecting full afterburner, in the F-15, is a blast. You rocket upwards until the sky turns indigo blue, then black...you pull it back out of AB, and as your speed drops to zero, you see vented fuel around you in the air, that starts moving upwards in relation to you...hold what you have and the plane will swap ends fairly violently and point you back towards mother earth. Amazing experience.

    Go take that- or another- aerobatic course! It is a blast, and I highly recommend the Super Decathlon. Once you have some experience, try to find a Pitts S2 or an Extra, but for your first acro ride they can be a little distracting.

    Beware- the last girl I taught acro to- a B1 command pilot friend- mortgaged her home and bought her own Pitts!
    You have been warned!
     
    yhuubert, PaulS, djpacro and 2 others like this.
  32. Ken Ibold

    Ken Ibold Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Messages:
    5,360
    Location:
    Jacksonville, Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ken Ibold
    My biggest problem with inverted flight is the dust/dirt/pencils/cheeseburger wrappers on the floor falling into my eyes/nose on the way to the ceiling.
     
    Bill Jennings likes this.
  33. Eagledriver65th

    Eagledriver65th Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2017
    Messages:
    28
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    EagleDriver65th
    No doubt! In fighters you almost never pushover to negative G, you roll and pull to keep the G's positive most of the time. On the rare occasion that you experience negative G for any length of time, its amazing how much crap will accumulate in the canopy- something I noticed was missing from the Top Gun scene with the "MiG". Probably would have ruined the ambiance...
     
  34. Cooter

    Cooter Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2015
    Messages:
    1,846
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cooter
    Yeah, fighter guys don't like dirt on them. Better to broadcast your intentions on a Gun's D, than to let some junk fly up on you in the cockpit.
     
  35. TCABM

    TCABM Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2013
    Messages:
    469
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    TCABM
    Between this and your hot rod business, you've had a pretty unique life. You ever cross paths with this guy?
     
    Ryanb likes this.
  36. Cooter

    Cooter Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2015
    Messages:
    1,846
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cooter
    I guess John Wayne just can't help but to share his story with us.
     
    Ryanb and TCABM like this.
  37. whifferdill

    whifferdill Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    922
    Location:
    NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    whifferdill
    I don't think you're attempting to get deep into technique here, but at the risk of coming across as the uptight detail freak, I just have a longstanding objection to describing snaps as horizontal spins. IMO it's a hindrance to teaching the subtlety of good snap technique, which is much more complex than simply yanking and kicking. I see lots of folks attempt snaps like they would enter a spin, and it produces a terrible snap...super slow, wallowing rotation, sloppy stop, and completely energy killing. To enter a spin, you stall the airplane and introduce yaw which drives the spin rotation via one wing being stalled more deeply than the other. A clean snap doesn't require initially stalling the airplane or even pulling to the buffet - just pulling enough AOA so that the rudder application then stalls one wing only. And when it breaks you unload the elevator and the snap will accelerate at an amazing rate when you get the timing right. Takes lots of practice to get really clean repeatable snaps. The results are truly night and day from the yank and stomp that many attempt to do. And in the Decathlon, repeated snaps will eventually cause fuel tank leaks if the airplane was built before ACA modified the tank design a few years back. Many are unwilling to snap them for good reason. Anyway - thread drift, but for those who are interested in this stuff...
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  38. BigBadLou

    BigBadLou En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2014
    Messages:
    4,446
    Location:
    TX - the friendliest state
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lou
    That is my biggest fear too.
    I know already that I love aerobatics but I really don't want to get into it for this very reason.
    I think the wife would kill me if I bought a 2S or similar.
     
  39. Eagledriver65th

    Eagledriver65th Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2017
    Messages:
    28
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    EagleDriver65th
    Agreed, completely- but for the purposes of this quick and dirty answer, it fit- and speaking aerodynamically, it IS accurate. As I said in the answer, that technique results in a big sloppy, wallow-y rotation. Practice and instruction tightens it up- although in a Super D, you never really get a tight snap. (as opposed to something like an Extra)
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  40. Eagledriver65th

    Eagledriver65th Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2017
    Messages:
    28
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    EagleDriver65th
    Npo