Special PIC qualification approaches

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by flyingcheesehead, Nov 27, 2017.

  1. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think many of us are aware of some of the approaches that require extra training - Aspen, St. Barts, etc.

    I saw a link to this article in one of my aviation email blasts today, and now I'm confused. The article mentions this InFO, which states in part:

    Note that this talks about "procedures," not "airports."

    However, I went to look at the list of airports that was linked to in the article, and it's called the "Special Pilot-In-Command (PIC) Qualification Airport List". Airport, not procedure. And it lists no procedures, only airports.

    I'm planning on visiting one of the airports in question, KJAC, this coming summer, so I looked up a bunch of its approaches in ForeFlight. I didn't find any that had a note on them about special training. Looking at the one that everyone seems to know about, the LOC/DME-E into KASE, I didn't see any notes on that plate about special training either.

    Do I need special training and authorization to fly an approach into KJAC? How do we tell if we need such training?
     
  2. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Dunno if it applies to your concern but some of the regional airlines have equipment which qualifies for lower minimums. I watched a 121 carrier come and go with 100 ft ceilings at Riverton, WY. I was stuck on the ground...
     
  3. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I saw this on Facebook......excellent example of how bad Flying magazine sucks. Bottom line, the two (special instrument procedures and Special PIC airport list) have nothing to do with each other.

    The new guidance from the FAA is concerning special instrument procedures that require special training. Those are noted on the approach plate. You cannot ask for or accept those particular approaches without having had the special training for the approach. That applies to all pilots.

    The Special PIC airport list is specifically for commercial operators. Notice who the audience is? POIs. Non commercial operators don’t deal with POIs and OpSpecs.
     
  4. neilw2

    neilw2 Line Up and Wait

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    I too was interested when I read that notice- I have flown into both KSLK- Saranac Lake, NY, and KEEN-Keene NH, which were listed in that document. Out of curiosity I did the same as you and couldn't find any notes on special qualifications needed anywhere for the airport or a procedure. I too was confused. I'm pretty sure I didnt do anything wrong by flying in there but I have no idea what they are referring to the special qualifications.

    I'm guessing it only applies to Part 121? Hopefully others will clear up soon...
     
  5. neilw2

    neilw2 Line Up and Wait

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    aaand @mscard88 and @Fearless Tower beat me to it and cleared it up before I could even click submit. Thanks guys, I was figuring that's what it was.
     
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  6. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Line Up and Wait

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    Fearless Tower had the correct answer.
     
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  7. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'm genuinely curious what prompted the FAA to publish the InFO about Specialized Approaches?

    The approach procedures they are talking about are not public access. You won't find them in ForeFlight or a standard Jepp subscription. It would seem that most folks who would even have the procedure would have already been through the training for the procedure.
     
  8. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I know our hospital special IAPs can be loaded with a typical GPS. The plates are private and won't be found in any public paper or electronic publication. I guess the FAA is sending a warning to make sure pilots understand that just because you can load it, doesn't mean you're authorized to excecute the approach. Of course, that should be common sense.
     
  9. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I was thinking of the Part 121 Special Qualification airports, such as KCRW, list requirement that we had, but see they're referring to Special Instrument approaches. My bad.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  10. Plano Pilot

    Plano Pilot Pre-takeoff checklist

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    [QUOTE="I'm planning on visiting one of the airports in question, KJAC, this coming summer, so I looked up a bunch of its approaches in ForeFlight. I didn't find any that had a note on them about special training. Looking at the one that everyone seems to know about, the LOC/DME-E into KASE, I didn't see any notes on that plate about special training either.

    Do I need special training and authorization to fly an approach into KJAC? How do we tell if we need such training?[/QUOTE]

    There are 3 RNP approaches into KJAC that are noted "AUTHORIZATION REQUIRED".
     
  11. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    He has a bad habit of doing that way too frequently.
     
  12. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen Pattern Altitude

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    IMG_1593.JPG Just went into Aspen for the first time recently. The picture is from the right seat on a visual a couple days later, but I shot the LOC/DME E for real in the left seat (well above minimums) a few days before. The 6.59 degree descent from the final approach fix is no joke!
     
  13. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Line Up and Wait

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    I don't know about ForeFlight, but some are on AirNav, so I'm sure they're in the books.

    They're talking about things like this CAT II/III
    SAACR JFK.jpg


    Or this SPECIAL AIRCREW & AIRCRAFT CERTIFICATION REQUIRED CAT-I ILS into MSP
    SAACR MSP-0.jpg


    SAACR MSP.jpg
     
  14. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It’s not just the CAT II/III approaches though. I got the feeling they were more concerned with things like the LOC 15 to ASE.
     
  15. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen Pattern Altitude

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    At Aspen, we flew the LOC/DME-E, which is available in ForeFlight, with no notes for special training required. I did notice that there was a second Localizer approach to 15 in the FMS, so likely that is the approach that requires the training. I'll check to see if both approaches are in the Garmin later today
     
  16. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    The bulletin is speaking to Special Instrument Approach Procedures, which are not issued under Part 97 and not charted by the FAA. The are charted by Jeppesen and provided to the proponent of the Special. A Special may merely be a private procedure to a private airport or it may be a procedure that was designed with variances to FAA TERPs criteria. There has been too many instances of these Special procedures being used by non-authorized pilots, thus the bulletin.

    Then are Part 121 Special Qualification airports, typically because of terrain.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/121.445

    Lihue, Hawaii is one such airport. (PHLI) The airlines flying into Lihue are provided color photographs by Jeppesen of each runway and overview data. Yet, none of the instrument approach procedures at Lihue deviate one iota from TERPs criteria. The issues at Lihue are more about circle to land, and instrument departures on Runway 21.

    https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N_8900.304.pdf

    Finally there are Authorization Required (AR), such as CAT II and III, and RNP AR, such as KBIH Runway 30. AR approaches at standard Part 97 public procedures, but require specific equipment and qualifications beyond those required for an instrument rating.

    I recently posted the special qual charts for Lihue on Beech Talk in the IFR section.
     
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  17. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Wally, are nonstandard military approaches with "not for civil use" lumped under special IAPs or are they their on entity?
     
  18. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    They are military procedures. If they deviate from TERPs sufficiently, then they are marked "not for civil use." If that note isn't on a military IAP, it can be used by a civil aircraft, assuming access to the base is granted. Military IAPs aren't issued under Part 97. They are like foreign IAPs in that sense: they aren't regulatory except as part of the ATC clearance.
     
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  19. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Thanks. I remember those types in TERPs as being "non-standard" but wasn't aware if they fell under special IAPs.
     
  20. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Exactly. The LOC/DME is not a special approach. But LOC 15 is. You apparently have to go to a place like Flight Safety to get the training for the LOC 15.
     
  21. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen Pattern Altitude

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    I just searched Flight Safety's site. They do provide the training along with other requirements.

    You must train as a crew

    You have to maintain currency by getting recurrent training every 12 months and fly that approach at least once every 180 days

    A letter of authorization from the FAA or your POI.

    Looks like it might be aircraft specific as well.
     
  22. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen Pattern Altitude

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    A google search brings up a copy of the special approach you about 1000' lower and requires a minimum climb gradient of about 5 1/2 percent for the missed.
     
  23. mtuomi

    mtuomi En-Route

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    I just got out from FSI in DFW and we had a few beers with a group who were doing the FSI KASE training. They pretty much said it's the same approach, just lower mins and needs perf calculations for the missed.
     
  24. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen Pattern Altitude

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    Yeah, same localizer, but lower altitudes which you gets you much deeper in the hole so you best have the power to get out. You can see from the picture I posted, which we were still pretty high up, the idea of a go around looks worse the lower you get.
     
  25. jonnyjetprop

    jonnyjetprop Line Up and Wait

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    Simple answer: Special approaches need special training. No training, no fly (even if someone gave you a photocopy or PDF of the plate).

    Special airports are a FAR 121 thing. Don’t fly for an airline, no need no worry. (Crew currency is required to operate at the airport if the wx is below certain minimums. Jeppeson has pictorial plates for review prior to operating. Generally for terrain, but can be complex procedures like KDCA)
     
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  26. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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  27. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Ah, I see that now. Down at the bottom, underneath the minimums. I was looking up top in the notes.
     
  28. Plano Pilot

    Plano Pilot Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Jepp puts it in the notes. As far as I know if it says RNP you are out of luck.
     
  29. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    Absolutely! NetJets and the FAA worked on a special perhaps 6 or 7 years ago, that got down to 500 feet, or so, then special performance with one engine inoperative. It did not materialize because the one engine inoperative requirements required the best performing jet in the fleet be at very light weights in cold wx. This is why the airport will not have an RNP AR IAP, at least not a decent one.