speaking of max gross and fuel

cowman

cowman

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This is something I've not yet had to worry about but probably will at some point....

Suppose you are planning a flight and in order to make weight and balance you'll need to run lower fuel... somewhere less than to the tabs.

At a self-service fuel pump I suppose it's pretty straightforward... put how much you want in. But at a full service place are they pretty good about filling your tanks to exactly where you say you want them? What if they forget and go to the tabs? What do you do with the extra fuel?

Just wondering.
 
Just get a 210. Fill the tanks and still have 1,000# cabin payload.

cowman said:
This is something I've not yet had to worry about but probably will at some point....

Suppose you are planning a flight and in order to make weight and balance you'll need to run lower fuel... somewhere less than to the tabs.

At a self-service fuel pump I suppose it's pretty straightforward... put how much you want in. But at a full service place are they pretty good about filling your tanks to exactly where you say you want them? What if they forget and go to the tabs? What do you do with the extra fuel?

Just wondering.
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Viable question, what is the safest way to offload fuel to drop weight?
 
wabower said:
Just get a 210. Fill the tanks and still have 1,000# cabin payload.
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Sure, if you can just front me the money and send me about $5,000 extra for gas money every year from here out I'll go for that.

Although with unlimited funds I'd just get a twin...
 
To the first question, if I give them a written fuel order and they overfuel it so I'm over gross, they get to remove that excess fuel and deduct it from the bill. BTDT.

To the second question, the safest way is to use a defueler -- essentially, a small fuel bowser that pumps in reverse. Other methods include siphoning and draining out the sump drains (very slow). Then they get to run their lawn mowers on that drained fuel since they can't legally pump it into another airplane.
 
Ron Levy said:
To the first question, if I give them a written fuel order and they overfuel it so I'm over gross, they get to remove that excess fuel and deduct it from the bill. BTDT.

To the second question, the safest way is to use a defueler -- essentially, a small fuel bowser that pumps in reverse. Other methods include siphoning and draining out the sump drains (very slow). Then they get to run their lawn mowers on that drained fuel since they can't legally pump it into another airplane.
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I cam testify that 100LL runs lawn mowers and snow blowers just fine.
 
bartmc said:
I cam testify that 100LL runs lawn mowers and snow blowers just fine.
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Runs everything, generators, tugs, our cars lol. All it is, is race gas. I used to run leaded 100 or 116 octane in my cars when I raced.
 
I have everything from a tractor to lawn mowers to snowmobiles that run on gas around here. Only problem is if it's not my home airport, I don't think it's going to weigh any less in a jerry can than it did in the wings.
 
I had them over fill my tanks at Sedona with a high DA....They asked if I wanted to keep the extra fuel free or for them to off load it. They said they cannot reuse it after they take it out of my plane. So I decided to just dial in the manual waste gates and take off with the turbo it was worth it for about $180 worth of fuel.

I was under GW just didn't want or need to take off with that much fuel for a 1 1/2 hr flight.
 
Ron Levy said:
To the second question, the safest way is to use a defueler -- essentially, a small fuel bowser that pumps in reverse. Other methods include siphoning and draining out the sump drains (very slow). Then they get to run their lawn mowers on that drained fuel since they can't legally pump it into another airplane.
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What regulation prevents it from being used in another airplane?
 
RotorAndWing said:
What regulation prevents it from being used in another airplane?
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No FAA regulation, but the companies which supply their fuel and their insurers both prohibit that -- too much risk of contamination. So it's contract law, not administrative law.
 
Not sure the OPs question was answered. You give a specific gallon order. You don't want to specify 1" below the tabs or things like that.
 
I have been overfilled (they didn't charge me for it), but I still had them drain it down to make weight.
 
If you make a calibrated dip stick for your aircraft, then you just stand there while they fuel it and tell them to stop when you have what you need.
 
Some planes simply won't accommodate such a technique.

Ken Ibold said:
If you make a calibrated dip stick for your aircraft, then you just stand there while they fuel it and tell them to stop when you have what you need.
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With only rare exception I always fuel myself or watch the fueler. It is easy to UNDERFUEL the Navion if you just shove the nozzle in and pull run it wide open. There's only one filler for both wing tanks so you have to either fill it slowly, or come back and retop it after you give the fuel time to settle between the two tanks. Usually, the do OK if I tell them to fill it slow. You get the idea if you're doing it slow it will come up to the filler neck and then drain down.

Also, unless you are familiar with Navion baggage aux tanks, you're going to take a 100LL shower if you're not real attentive. There's no visual indication of the tank being full. You have to listen for the gurgling as it comes up the filler. I always offer to fill the aux tank for the fueler when I am using it.

As for over fueling, my story pretty much matches C'Rons. Only once was I overfueled like that and it was in someone else's Mooney.
 
The other safe way to dispose of it is to fly around for a bit and burn it off. ;)

When I've been overloaded on fuel my response has varied. You can demand they offload it, but usually if you point out they screwed up you end up keeping it for free. The last time I got overloaded was when they topped all four on the Aztec when all I wanted was the inboards topped. They just gave me half the fuel for free.

Sometimes I've simply accepted the extra fuel and paid for it. This has typically been when it's at an airport I have a good relationship with and the fuel doesn't create an issue. This helps keep some good will (especially when you make sure the management knows you did it) which you can cash in on later.
 
You're willing to testify that fuel removed from an airplane is never resold for use in another plane?

Ron Levy said:
No FAA regulation, but the companies which supply their fuel and their insurers both prohibit that -- too much risk of contamination. So it's contract law, not administrative law.
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wabower said:
You're willing to testify that fuel removed from an airplane is never resold for use in another plane?
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I hate to tell you guys but when they put 3,500 gallons on a jet and it leaks, that fuel does not get discarded at defuel.

The airplane is defueled, the leaks are repaired (hopefully) and then leak checked AGAIN.
 
wabower said:
You're willing to testify that fuel removed from an airplane is never resold for use in another plane?
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I don't know the legal basis, but at one airport I temporarily had space in the FBO's mx hangar while my T-hangar row was being rebuilt. The mechanics there told me they could not resell fuel that had been defueled from other airplanes, but it could be reused, and so they just made a habit of putting it in my airplane (for free) rather than in a waste drum.

Sample size of 1, so YMMV. (There may also be state laws involved.)
 
All u need is a clean white bucket and a hose to defuel GA stuff.
 
flyingron said:
Also, unless you are familiar with Navion baggage aux tanks, you're going to take a 100LL shower if you're not real attentive. There's no visual indication of the tank being full. You have to listen for the gurgling as it comes up the filler. I always offer to fill the aux tank for the fueler when I am using it.
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When I got checked out in the Sky Arrow and the Remos I was warned about that. They both have single fuselage tanks with no indication of how full they are, so you have to go slowly towards the end.
 
Ron Levy said:
No FAA regulation, but the companies which supply their fuel and their insurers both prohibit that -- too much risk of contamination. So it's contract law, not administrative law.
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Back when I had my business I had a fuel truck and there was no such provision in the insurance and my supplier made no such stipulation. And I've seen FBO's defuel aircraft and return the fuel to the truck. So if the truck has a filtration system how can the fuel be "contaminated" if it's pumped back through the filters? :dunno:
 
A filter would take out any particulate matter, but unless it's a far better filtration system than I'd expect it wouldn't take out any water.

It definitely wouldn't take out the half a tank of mogas that was remaining in the tanks before they were filled, or the MMO or whatever favorite additive had been put in previously. Would it matter if 10 gallons of 50/50 100LL and mogas got siphoned out and mixed and diluted into the tanker truck? Not really. But still, do you want to be the next guy getting filled up after that happens?
 
RotorAndWing said:
Back when I had my business I had a fuel truck and there was no such provision in the insurance and my supplier made no such stipulation. And I've seen FBO's defuel aircraft and return the fuel to the truck. So if the truck has a filtration system how can the fuel be "contaminated" if it's pumped back through the filters? :dunno:
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Whatever you say. I've been through this with other FBO's than yours, and they say otherwise. So, YMMV, but my experience suggests yours is the exception rather than the rule.
 
bnt83 said:
I hate to tell you guys but when they put 3,500 gallons on a jet and it leaks, that fuel does not get discarded at defuel.

The airplane is defueled, the leaks are repaired (hopefully) and then leak checked AGAIN.
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I've had fuel put back into my tanks after being drained from the same airplane, not much liability issue with contamination then. What are you going to do, sue yourself for having dirty tanks?
 
Shops know they can't refuel for leak checks until they move the plane outside, so many just pump it into a barrel or into other tanks in the plane, then pump it back when they need it.
 
Ron Levy said:
Whatever you say. I've been through this with other FBO's than yours, and they say otherwise. So, YMMV, but my experience suggests yours is the exception rather than the rule.
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:rolleyes2:

And why would you have been "through this" with other FBO's??? Problems with over fueling your Cheetah? :dunno:

And on a further note, back in my airline days in the US we had interline agreements at the airports we served to pump our fuel into the airplane by the local fuel vendors on the airport. Due to loads or maintenance we often defueled our planes to the fuel truck and that fuel was reused at a later time. These fuel suppliers and FBO's were all top name companies and I never encountered any prohibition on defueling or reusing that fuel. :dunno:

So your "experience" seems to be lacking on this subject. :rolleyes:
 
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RotorAndWing said:
What regulation prevents it from being used in another airplane?
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It's not a regulation. It's typically a matter of the policy of your supplier. Phillips will not allow a defuel to go back into another aircraft because they don't know it's all Phillips brand fuel and it may not be up to their standards. That's how Phillips works, I don't know about other brands like BP though. If the FBO had a way to store it they may be able to put it back in the original aircraft, but I'm guessing some will and some won't. It's a quality control thing. You could pump out the fuel and put it back in the aircraft. Now if we're talking 100 gallons it may be used towards filling all the trucks that run on diesel.. Jet is filtered and tested something like 5 or 6 times between the fuel tanker, the tank farm the truck and the airplane. 100ll is also controlled though it doesn't go through some of the same gravity tests as jet when the FBO is accepting it.
 
Z06_Mir said:
It's not a regulation. It's typically a matter of the policy of your supplier. Phillips will not allow a defuel to go back into another aircraft because they don't know it's all Phillips brand fuel and it may not be up to their standards. That's how Phillips works, I don't know about other brands like BP though. If the FBO had a way to store it they may be able to put it back in the original aircraft, but I'm guessing some will and some won't. It's a quality control thing. You could pump out the fuel and put it back in the aircraft. Now if we're talking 100 gallons it may be used towards filling all the trucks that run on diesel.. Jet is filtered and tested something like 5 or 6 times between the fuel tanker, the tank farm the truck and the airplane. 100ll is also controlled though it doesn't go through some of the same gravity tests as jet when the FBO is accepting it.
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Like I said earlier, the supplier I used had no such stipulation and they supplied many FBO's. Airlines use a method called "interline agreement" in which they deposit fuel into the tanks of FBO's and fuel suppliers and the FBO/fuel supplier pumps it into the airplane on a gallon cost basis. It's not uncommon to defuel an airliner for weight or maintenance and then refuel the next airplane with the same fuel. An airline will not throw away 20,000 pounds of fuel just because it was previously delivered to another airplane. Many of the larger FBO's fuel trucks have a defuel function on their fuel trucks and will defuel larger planes for maintenance, again this fuel is not discarded.

I've simplified my comments as there are procedures for the supplier in "recycling" the fuel through the fuel farm system, but throwing out a generic "it's illegal" to reuse pumped out fuel is simply someone's personal opinion with no basis in fact.
 
RotorAndWing said:
but throwing out a generic "it's illegal" to reuse pumped out fuel is simply someone's personal opinion with no basis in fact.
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Oh come on. No one would *ever* do that on here. They also would never speak on behalf of the FAA even though they've never worked directly for them. Would never happen. Ever. Really. I swear.
 
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