Someone needs to learn lesson

Discussion in 'Lessons Learned' started by ConcernedIFRguy, Jun 23, 2018.

  1. bobmrg

    bobmrg En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2007
    Messages:
    2,707
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bob Gardner
    Dunno. The crash was covered extensively in the local press.

    Bob
     
  2. aggie06

    aggie06 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2014
    Messages:
    243
    Location:
    Dallas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aggie
    Sometimes I wonder if some non instrument rated pilots even know (or care to know) the rules. I got delayed in Iowa last year on the way to Oshkosh and ended up having an interesting discussion with a pilot there who insisted that you only need an IR if you are leaving your local area. "Local IFR" was perfectly legal because how else would he be able to get through the clouds if they were low around his home Class D. He then told me my plan to file an IFR flight plan that routed me to DBQ first and then on in to OSH was ridiculous. "Why wouldn't you just go direct? What's a NOTAM? They can't tell you where to fly!"

    Before anyone gets offended - this group is different. All the VFR only pilots on POA know the rules about needing an instrument rating and no one takes undue risk.
     
    overdrive148 likes this.
  3. kkoran

    kkoran Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,405
    Location:
    Renton, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kent
  4. kkoran

    kkoran Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,405
    Location:
    Renton, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kent
    So you are saying is that a VFR aircraft operating in VFR-conditions in Class E airspace is a "sky pirate"?
     
    DaleB likes this.
  5. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    14,792
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    I wouldn't say "all," but I do believe that the mere act of regular participation in an aviation discussion forum increases a pilot's chances of being exposed to the rules.
     
    Tantalum likes this.
  6. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    20,109
    Location:
    UQACY, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iMooniac
    I've had it *almost* happen to me. Departing KCAD, IFR, already picked up my clearance (thus, the airspace was cleared for me). Vis about 3/4 mile, overcast 400 feet. I pull onto the runway, line up, set my DG one last time, and a Bonanza goes zooming about 20 feet over my head.

    There have been zero mid-airs in the whole history of Oshkosh.
     
  7. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2018
    Messages:
    117
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kenny Phillips
    There have been several ground collisions, one of them quite spectacular.
     
  8. slacktide

    slacktide Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2008
    Messages:
    541
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dan
  9. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    2,203
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    This guy even had an IR yet still "he did intentionally enter IMC without operating under instrument flight rules. " http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2017/01/mooney-m20j-fatal-accident-occurred.html

    Aren't all METARS stored? Pretty easy to compare a flightaware track against a local METAR. And if you find compelling evidence go down to the FSDO. Just not sure if that's really something you want to do. When you see someone roll through a stop or run a red light do you copy down their plate number and call the police? What if you see a drunk guy get in a car? It's an interesting moral situation to find yourself in.
     
  10. azure

    azure Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    Messages:
    7,530
    Location:
    Vermont
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    azure
    METARs don't give any information about tops, though, and they are only valid at and in the vicinity of the reporting station. Pretty thin evidence to base a bust on for operating VFR in IMC, even if you have no moral qualms about ratting someone out.
     
  11. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    2,203
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    True, but if you can see that MYF was reporting 2K OVC and Big Bear is reporting 500 OVC but somehow you know your buddy made it there as a VFR only pilot, and has pictures on FB of them cruising above an OVC layer, then you can start to connect the dots. Especially at a club plane where you can see the hobbs time entries in the book and the scheduler

    My question is.. what would make you rat them out?
    -because it upsets you that you play by the rules and someone else doesn't?
    -because they're your best bud and you're afraid they'll hurt themselves?
    -because you have an altruistic desire to not see other humans hurt as collateral damage when your buddy eventually has a middar in IMC or takes out himself, his family, and people on the ground

    I would say the latter two are best addressed by just talking to the friend person to person.. ultimately it's their life and they're responsible for their actions.. so if you've already voiced your concerns then you've done your part. And if it's the former.. then that's got to be a tough way to go through life.. like that person on here a few weeks ago who wanted to report his CFI to the FSDO because he didn't come with a lesson plan and checked his phone in flight
     
  12. OPhere

    OPhere Guest

    OP here. It’s not about punishment. It’s about seeing a friend not get hurt and putting others at risk. My and a couple of buds have leaned on him hard about it but at the end of the day he’s just used to doing what he is doing. It’s become a joke, the M in MVFR stands for his name. One of the local CFI’s has threatened to report him or pull his liscense. Which is something a CFi can apparently do?? They are more ****ed then me. I’m more disappointed. Guy says he can’t pass written. A cfi I know says he gets very lost on non-precision approaches and nonpublished holds. Never flew with the guy but sounds like a real magenta line guy. I’m on one of those guys that want to see everyone around me elevate, not get by or hide.
     
  13. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    20,109
    Location:
    UQACY, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iMooniac
    What about "all of the above", plus the fourth and most important reason that you missed?

    I sure hope that someone (be it friends, family, CFIs, or the FAA) can get him to quit flying in IMC without a flight plan, for that fourth reason, which is this: Because *I* don't want to be the guy that he runs into!!! Not particularly altruistic of me, but the system only works when people follow the rules, and I'd rather that my family and my plane all come back to the ground gently and in one piece.
     
  14. overdrive148

    overdrive148 En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2013
    Messages:
    3,097
    Location:
    Fort Worth, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    overdrive148
    OP sounds like he's trying to prevent someone from turning themselves into an accident report like this one:

    http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/12/missing-plane.html
    https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20161227X03229&key=1

    Accident report quote:
    Killed himself, his girlfriend, and his kid.
    [​IMG]
     
    Kritchlow likes this.
  15. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    2,203
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    If it is actually that serious then perhaps someone should escalate accordingly. As with everything there are various degrees to everything and it can be hard on an internet forum to really get a sense of things.. but if I had a close friend that I actually thought was setting himself up to be the next Kathryn's report victim then I'd collect some data, build a case, talk to the CFIs there, and potentially go to the FSDO. Look at it like an intervention of sorts.. you're not "ratting" him out, you could be saving lives.
     
    flyingcheesehead and azure like this.
  16. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    14,792
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    Here's another such case (although I don't know whether this one had a habit of disregarding regulations):

    https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...his-ntsb-factual-turbo-lance-dec-2015.103167/

    [​IMG]
     
  17. azure

    azure Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    Messages:
    7,530
    Location:
    Vermont
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    azure
    You can connect the dots, I'm just not sure you could reliably collect enough evidence for the FSDO to make a bust with. You might or might not be able to.
    For me it would be mostly the last two, and (as Kent said) because I don't want them to hit *me* when I'm legally in the clag on an IFR flight plan. The rules are less of a consideration as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't consider it any of my business if someone without the rating was accepting IFR clearances and flying in the system in the clouds, assuming he seemed to be a competent instrument pilot. IMC pirates, i.e. pilots who fly VFR in IMC without talking to anyone, endanger everyone, themselves included.
    That's a very different case. Maybe that CFI shouldn't be a CFI, but I also think we don't have both sides of the story. An IMC pirate is a potential menace, depending on the type of airspace he's flying in. I agree with having a CTJ talk, but if that fails, and especially if he seems not to care or understand the hazard he is causing, then yes, I would favor alerting the FSDO and discussing my concerns with them, even if I couldn't make a convincing case myself.
     
  18. azure

    azure Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    Messages:
    7,530
    Location:
    Vermont
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    azure
    That's exactly the way I think of it... as an intervention.
     
    Tantalum likes this.
  19. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    10,326
    Location:
    My own special place.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Old dog w/o new tricks
    And then you have the one that @eman1200 posted recently that happened at IPJ, Lincolnton NC. VFR pilot departing into IMC, 1.25 vis, 200' OVC.

    I'm giving up trying to understand what pilots think when they do this as they probably weren't thinking at all.
     
  20. denverpilot

    denverpilot Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    48,652
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    Anyone can report him, nobody can pull his license except the FAA. CFI is bluffing.
     
    TCABM likes this.
  21. Lndwarrior

    Lndwarrior Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2009
    Messages:
    169
    Location:
    Cloverdale, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Gary
    To sum up this entire discussion

    - you cant fix stupid.
     
    TCABM likes this.
  22. Salty

    Salty Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    2,268
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    But you can charge them $50 an hour to try.
     
    denverpilot and TCABM like this.
  23. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,215
    Location:
    Sw florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    bob
    as someone that was almost taken out by a 310 vfr in imc I say turn his a... in. I was decending into tulsa with 70 people in the back and atc called "traffic 2 oclock that im not taking to" I responded, "xxx looking for traffic, IMC at this time" a couple of seconds later we get an RA on the guy, we follow the RA and just then see a 310 bust out of the clouds a couple of hundred feet from us. I reported the RA and added " it was a 310 busting out of the clouds". I hope they tracked him and violated him.
     
  24. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    10,326
    Location:
    My own special place.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Old dog w/o new tricks
    OP first posted on June 23 and then again on August 1, apparently without taking any real action between those dates. I guess resolving this problem really isn’t that important to him. I wonder how many opportunities that provided the subject pilot to cause harm to himself and others.
     
  25. topgun260

    topgun260 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2013
    Messages:
    116
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Topgun260
    There is indeed a Big Sky. I know because they made a license plate about it.
    [​IMG]
     
  26. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    10,326
    Location:
    My own special place.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Old dog w/o new tricks
    Great plate!
     
  27. RudyP

    RudyP Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Messages:
    724
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    RudyP
    I’m not advocating for IMC piracy at all but one analogy I have used to explain the relatively low risk of mid air collisions (before even talking about help from ATC, traffic systems in aircraft and eyes outside the window) is the following:
    Start with road collisions, of which there are many thousands every year in the US
    Now, get rid of 99.9% of the cars and you’ll cut the accident rate by three orders of magnitude.
    Next, add 10,000 times more road surface than we have. In fact, bulldoze everything in the landmass (all buildings, people, houses, pave over the lakes, etc) and pave the entire US and make it one huge road/parking lot with nothing to hit.
    Finally, stack another 50 identical full surface of the US roads on top of the base layer.
    Oh and remove all speed limits and allow cars to go several hundred miles per hour.
    Car to car collisions would be vanishingly small.

    That’s pretty close to the big sky we get to fly in.
     
  28. overdrive148

    overdrive148 En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2013
    Messages:
    3,097
    Location:
    Fort Worth, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    overdrive148
    Now imagine a large McDonalds in the middle of it with no drive thru guidance and I can see where the problems start.
     
    TCABM likes this.
  29. Paulie

    Paulie Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2014
    Messages:
    674
    Location:
    Naples fl
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    paulie
    Sky ain’t that big around airports, or many popular areas. I think you’re being willfully ignorant and your analogy is weak at best.
     
    flyingcheesehead likes this.
  30. Paulie

    Paulie Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2014
    Messages:
    674
    Location:
    Naples fl
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    paulie
    You’re from San Diego Rudy, remember the PSA / Cessna 172 midair? Guy blasting through controlled airspace.
     
  31. tawood

    tawood Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2015
    Messages:
    1,660
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tim
    I don't think this "proves" anything...now if they have pictures on FB of them cruising THROUGH the overcast, that is what I would call "proof". Connecting dots? That's only suspecting them of wrong doing, not proving it.
     
    Palmpilot and azure like this.
  32. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2012
    Messages:
    3,169
    Location:
    Hopewell Jct, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shepherd
    Here is my take away from this, and it's going to torque some people off.
    Anyone who gets in a plane should be able to fly 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes in IMC conditions without getting yourself killed, even if you don't have your IR.
    Yes I know, flying in hurricanes near Mount Everest, is not a good idea, even if you are the greatest instrument rated pilot in the world. I get it, there will always be some circumstance that no matter who you are, it will kill you.
    But I will bet a pile of money that everyone who flies long enough will get into a meteorological situation and the only way out is keep pushing on. Sometimes you just cant turn 180 degrees and escape.
    Learn how to fly in weather, before you are forced to fly in weather without knowing how.
     
    azure, tawood and TCABM like this.
  33. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    2,203
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    I totally agree with that. I think what annoys people about that is if you have someone up there in the clouds not squawking and zipping along IMC he's actively putting someone else who is on an IR and is up in the clouds at risk. People without IR will inevitably get caught in some IMC if they fly long enough, it happens, and that's why you do some sim instrument time in PPL. BUT, I think it's generally bad judgment if someone is knowingly doing it on purpose, like the OP mentioned

    Where I'm on the fence is.. outside of talking to your buddy.. is it really worth going to the FSDO over it. I get the safety concern, but most people aren't phoning the police every time someone rolls through a stop or runs a light
     
  34. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    8,989
    Location:
    NM or the emergency room...
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Billy
    CFI is bluffing.

    And does anyone really think this guy would stop flying if his license is suspended.??
     
  35. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2012
    Messages:
    3,169
    Location:
    Hopewell Jct, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shepherd
    I should have also said: If you get stuck out there, TELL someone. Contact ATC and let them know.
    I am not aware of anyone ever losing their ticket for inadvertently getting caught in weather.
     
  36. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    20,109
    Location:
    UQACY, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iMooniac
    Forget the FAA. Tell his wife!

    Meh - Not really. You're making too many invalid assumptions. For example, the "pave the US" one. You're assuming that an airplane is just as likely to be over Big Sky, MT as Chicago. Not so! Same thing with altitudes. There's a lot more airplanes at 5,500 than 13,000, for example.
     
  37. RudyP

    RudyP Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Messages:
    724
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    RudyP
    You are taking it way more literally than intended. It’s just meant to open up the minds of those who think nothing of zipping past an oncoming car at a combined closing rate of 120mph, separated by 5 ft while the other driver is probably texting to the amount of space opened up by virtually limitless room in 3 dimensions. It’s an order of magnitudes thing. There are many orders of magnitude in your favor when you compare the risk of midair collision versus ground vehicle collisions.