Someone needs to learn lesson

Discussion in 'Lessons Learned' started by ConcernedIFRguy, Jun 23, 2018.

  1. I have a friend (for real this time), who is a longtime pilot, flys at least 150hours a year and probably has had is license for 25+years. Holds a private license owns his own single engine 6 seater. Problem is he has no problem flying IMC busting ifr. Doesn’t file flight plans. Doesn’t go up when it’s horrible mind you but doesn’t let weather stand in his way. Went up last week for an hour flight and will causally admit he was IMC for 10 min in a 1 hour flight.
    A mutual friend has and continues to give him a lot of crap about it. We have tried to push him to get his IFR rating. I am currentlt getting my IFR rating and working hard at it. My buddy is an IFR and commercial pilot. We both kind of lean on this guy and he just passes it off, excuses range from “I can’t pass the written..” “don’t have time to do it..” ect. I actually thought that by me going for my IFR it would stimulate him to just get it done.
    Advice on how to approach him differently??
    I don’t want to see him get hurt one day nor do I really want to be in the air in IMC when I see his plane out of the hangar either.
    You’d think sooner or later a controller would flip. We fly out of an uncontrolled airport though.
     
  2. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,106
    Location:
    KBAZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    hindsight2020
    Controllers have no way of knowing if you're IMC or not. They can deduce it by nearby traffic calling out IMC, but beyond that, it's based on the reported conditions on the departing/arriving airfield (aka 1000/3 or less) for the purposes of departing/arriving, otherwise reported conditions aloft by other traffic. They'll see a primary target (if he's not squawking) or a random 1200 ping that they have to keep IFR traffic away from.

    Don't fret too much on the midair collision risk. The sky is much bigger than you give it credit for. There's not that many pirates punching through IMC not talking to anyone nor squawking. Seriously, when was the last time you heard or read of an air pirate colliding with participating IFR traffic?

    The guy certainly has an attitude, if he feels cruising in IMC not talking to a soul is par for the course. I'm not condoning the practice, but to me there's a huge difference between punching through a "wispy deck" on your way to VFR over the top, and straight up departing out of an uncontrolled field while IFR wx conditions prevail on the field, not talking to a soul, just to park it in cruise in IMC. That's just asking to mort yourself as a non-IR guy. This guy has been flying for 25 years, so he's been doing it for a while now. Unlikely he'll change behavior now, especially if he's essentially pulling that stunt on MVFR conditions. LIFR conditions it's a whole ball of wax, as it would be much more difficult for him to sneak back down to the arriving field without using instrument guidance or without getting caught by participating IFR traffic on the ground.

    As to what to do about it? Not much. Tell him on the bro level that he's being a douche by cruising in IMC. Considering his behavior, it's unlikely he'll have much regard for your objection. Don't obsess over the midair collision fear though, it's not a significant issue here. The guy will spatial-D one day and may have to allocute to his infraction real time, or the stunt may get away from him one day and get him killed. You said your peace, I'd sleep with a clear conscience personally.

    Good luck on your IR training btw.
     
  3. skier

    skier Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    371
    Location:
    CT
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Skier
    I wonder how many people fly IFR without talking to anyone and without the rating. I knew a guy about 10 years ago that would do the same thing in his two seater. If I remember correctly in one of his stories he bragged about flying out to Oshkosh from the east coast in mostly IFR conditions without talking to anyone. And that was just one of his stories.

    I can’t belive people are that dumb and reckless.
     
    <RP>< likes this.
  4. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2007
    Messages:
    8,208
    Location:
    Maryland
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Check_my_Six
    so what altitude are we talking?....and where is this happening?
     
  5. azure

    azure Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    Messages:
    7,680
    Location:
    Vermont
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    azure
    Sounds like he's an idiot and a menace. It's true, as was said above, that the chances of an actual midair are probably quite small, but the chances of what would be a separation violation if he were IFR are much much higher, and since he's not talking to ATC, it makes keeping IFR traffic separated from him once it becomes clear that he's where he shouldn't be that much harder for ATC. If he flies IMC near airports where IFR ops are being conducted, then the risk of a midair rises considerably, especially if ATC radar doesn't reach down to pattern altitude (which is the case at my home base).

    Personally, I would be torn between friendship and duty if I were in the OP's shoes. Stupid pilot behavior that poses a risk to my safety in the air is one of the few situations where I would consider ratting someone out to the FAA, if the Come to Jesus approach fails. A lot would depend on how well I knew the pilot and whether he takes steps to mitigate the risk he is posing to others, such as staying well away from airways and approach corridors and adhering to VFR altitudes.

    I would have more respect for these scofflaws if they filed and talked to ATC and at least tried to operate inside the system, but most of them aren't competent enough to do that and they know it. If I knew someone who did that and he was a capable instrument pilot despite not having the rating, it would be none of my business - that would be between him and the FAA as far as I'm concerned. Which category does this pilot fall into?
     
  6. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
    Messages:
    2,905
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dmspilot
    If getting an instrument rating is "too hard" for him it makes me wonder how he's still alive.
     
  7. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    9,589
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Burdensome regulations keeping GA from the masses. As long as he’s got an iPad with Fore Flight and ADS-B in, he should fine forgoing the IFR.
     
    AndrewX likes this.
  8. azure

    azure Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    Messages:
    7,680
    Location:
    Vermont
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    azure
    Two possibilities:

    1. He has an autopilot and knows how to use it.

    2. He has plenty of hours under the hood and has a good understanding of the instruments and how they work, but never bothered to learn the procedures and regs well enough to pass the written.
     
  9. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    5,341
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    Last air pirate colliding with participating IFR traffic I can remember is Aero Mexico’s DC9 and a Cherokee over Cerritos. Happened in VMC. The Cherokee was ‘pirating’ by flying through the TCA(now called Class B’s) without a Clearance and avoiding detection by not turning on his transponder. That one led to the development of TCAS. I hope this guy at least leaves his transponder on squawking altitude
     
  10. Sac Arrow

    Sac Arrow Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 11, 2010
    Messages:
    15,171
    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Eight Balla
    In theory, one could operate legal IFR without talking to anyone, if one remained entirely in class G airspace.
     
  11. sarangan

    sarangan Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    307
    Location:
    Dayton, OH
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Andrew Sarangan, CFII
    If you have a friend at the FAA, or know of an inspector who frequents your airport, you can ask him/her to have a talk with this guy. Some unofficial admonishing from the FAA might be exactly what this guy needs.
     
    azure likes this.
  12. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    5,341
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    Ain’t no theory. That be the rules. There is practically no G airspace left in the US where you can do it though without breaking some other rule. Climbing to get above ground fog is about it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
  13. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2008
    Messages:
    12,530
    Location:
    mass fla
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ron keating
    Sooner or later ,if he’s using a transponder,they will figure it out,when they announce traffic a few times and the aircraft being notified ,says they are IMC. They have the ability track the sneaky aircraft.
     
  14. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages:
    2,926
    Location:
    A Rubber Room
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cli4ord
    You could just call a local FSDO inspector and ask they have a talk with him.
     
  15. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    7,255
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PaulS
    The guy is a jerk and the sky is not as big as most think it is. Just about every other flight sometimes more, I need to make an adjustment in my path for another aircraft or be on the lookout for an aircraft either via FF or my own sight. We really need to be alert for traffic. People like your buddy are the reason why the accident rates are so bad for GA, the problem with his behavior is the odds of him taking an innocent with him when he goes.
     
    MTWings, Kritchlow and skier like this.
  16. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    15,016
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    I hope your friend is at least squawking altitude. :eek2:
     
  17. Sac Arrow

    Sac Arrow Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 11, 2010
    Messages:
    15,171
    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Eight Balla
    Pretty much.
     
  18. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    15,016
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    Even that would require the top of the fog layer to be no higher than 200 AGL where the floor of class E is 1200 AGL, and where the class E floor is 700 AGL, it wouldn't be possible to do do it without breaking the thousand-feet-above rule, which takes effect as soon as he climbs into the class E.
     
    azure likes this.
  19. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,106
    Location:
    KBAZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    hindsight2020
    This is simply not true. Again, the mid air collisions far and wide gravitate to the severe VFR pancake fly-in saturday morning crowd all wanting to land in the same airport, as opposed to the the boogeyman of IMC pirates taking you out while IMC. GA's darling sausage fest, Oshkosh, and similar venues have more blood in their hands than IMC pirates ever did on this account. Those are rule-followers killing each other with great impunity btw. I recognize it feels good to admonish the scofflaws, but we're inventing a narrative to support our indignation. As for the rest of your point, I have no quarrel with the notion of remaining vigilant in the see and avoid business. That's frankly a pointless statement it's so universally agreeable.
     
    TysonG and tawood like this.
  20. azure

    azure Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    Messages:
    7,680
    Location:
    Vermont
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    azure
    There is probably not a lot of this going on at IFR airports where ATC radar can't see down to the FAF much less pattern altitude, but such airports do exist and anyone who does this around an airport like that is a real midair waiting to happen. Because such airports are in the minority, the statistics simply don't reflect the actual level of danger in that case. If I was out shooting approaches at KMPV and I got wind of someone cruising around in the clouds in that airspace, I would be more than indignant, I would be afraid for my life. And if I knew who the pilot was, I wouldn't hesitate to arrange an intervention.

    We have no idea what kind of airspace the OP flies in, so it might be no real issue or it might be a serious hazard to air safety. Whether I would MMOB or take more aggressive action depends on details we're just not privy to. If the OP chooses to share them, we would have more to go on.
     
    TysonG likes this.
  21. bobmrg

    bobmrg En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2007
    Messages:
    2,761
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bob Gardner
    It happened before ADSB, but a VFR-rated couple using a tablet to wend their way through the Cascades in IMC ran into cumulgranite when Grandma pushed the wrong button and lost the picture...granddaughter survived to tell the tale.

    Bob
     
    MIFlyer likes this.
  22. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    5,341
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    NTSB report # ???
     
  23. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    15,016
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    The quote in your post is misattributed to me.
     
  24. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    15,016
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    Did you forget a "wink" smiley?
     
    mscard88 likes this.
  25. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    7,255
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PaulS
    Database error.
     
  26. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    7,255
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PaulS
    I talked about my experience with the big sky theory in my post, it's foolish to think you are safe from a midair because the sky is big. You feel good looking at your stats I'll feel good looking out the window.
     
    flyingcheesehead likes this.
  27. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    9,589
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    ;)
     
  28. Lachlan

    Lachlan Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    Messages:
    2,297
    Location:
    North Creek, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lachlan
    Good luck spotting that danged outlaw in IMC. ;)
     
    RDUPilot and hindsight2020 like this.
  29. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2008
    Messages:
    3,850
    Location:
    Marietta, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Drake the Outlaw
    I believe it is OK is OK to risk your own life. You wanna do low altitude acro in your airplane over the corn fields of Illinois? Knock yourself out. Fly IFR into the biggest thunderstorm you've ever seen out over the swamps? Fine.

    But flying bandit IFR in IMC ain't cool. You are knowingly placing others at risk.

    Given that he has no proof, the OP could notify the FAA. A little arm bending by an FAA rep might change behavior.
     
  30. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    15,377
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    1000/3 only means something to airports with a controlled airspace surface area. Everywhere else, it's up to the pilot to decide if he's VFR or not, and if you're in class G, that's often just a mile and clear of clouds. Even when landing IFR, it's the FLIGHT VISIBILITY (what the pilot sees) that determines if you've made minimums or not.
     
  31. Omalley1537

    Omalley1537 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2015
    Messages:
    620
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sean
    Don’t recall the #, but it was a Bo on the east side of the cascades in WA. Granddaughter survived and found her way out to a road. Happened a couple/few years back as I recall.
     
  32. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,106
    Location:
    KBAZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    hindsight2020
    Lol ya beat me to it. :D
     
  33. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    7,255
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PaulS
    Yep, keep those blinders on, tunnel vision..... that's exactly what I was talking about, look out the window when you can't see, fits your argument perfectly. :rolleyes:
     
  34. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,106
    Location:
    KBAZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    hindsight2020
    Stop titling at them windmills quijote, you took my position completely out of context. I never said don't look out because the sky is big as a generality. I said your VFR rule following friends landing all at the same time at the panckake breakfast are factually bigger culprits to the midair collision Boogeyman Cirrus even made an entire airplane around of, than the strawman IMC pirate being highlighted in this thread. In the context of the IMC pirate the mid air statistics do in fact bear out that the sky is in fact big. Which is why i told the OP not to worry about it, and I stand by that position.
     
  35. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    7,255
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PaulS
    Statistics don't bear that out at all, they bear out that traffic in IMC is relatively safe because airspace is strictly controlled and surveilled specifically to avoid collisions, it is surveilled because the big sky theory is an utter failure as an avoidance technique for mid airs. Take away that surveillance and the statistics would be much worse. Your theory that it isn't much worse partially or fully due to "big sky" is fallacious. You should stop saying it because more people than I would have ever believed think that it is a big sky out there and they don't have to be concerned about mid airs, they need to be educated.

    In general, the OP should not be worried about the IMC scofflaw, but he flies out of the same airport and if he is flying at the same time as that guy in IMC he should be very concerned, because his odds of an issue are many times more than someone flying in an area where everyone is following the rules.
     
    TysonG likes this.
  36. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    9,504
    Location:
    NM or the emergency room...
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Billy
    I have dealt flying in the same area as folks that do not have a certificate or medical. Most have survived.

    Since we are on the subject......what is this license thingy you all talk about..??? ;)
     
    Palmpilot likes this.
  37. Lachlan

    Lachlan Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    Messages:
    2,297
    Location:
    North Creek, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lachlan
    Can you please post up a pic of this wonderful area where everyone follows the rules? I would *LOVE* to go there some day. :)
     
    RDUPilot and Palmpilot like this.
  38. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    7,255
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PaulS
    Lol, go find it yourself.
     
  39. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Messages:
    21,709
    Location:
    DC Suburbs
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bill S.
    I remember coming out of the clouds IFR at about 800' and finding someone in the pattern scud running. A bit intense, but we avoided trading aluminum.
     
  40. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    5,841
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cap'n Jack
    I'm not understanding your point I'm reading your statements as:
    - Is it merely that there are things that are statistically more likely to happen than a mid-air with an IMC scofflaw?
    - It's OK to be an IMC scofflaw because one is unlikely to collide with someone?
     
    Kenny Phillips likes this.