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Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by SoCal 182 Driver, Jul 17, 2021.
You do know a six means lots of other thingys….than a Cherokee Six? Lol Btw…here’s my new six.
Overnight trips at least monthly. Next week going on a 9 day trip to Oshkosh and Colorado.
You get banged for a buck? Wow - you are thrifty.
11 (maybe 10, I'd have to check) of my last 15 weekends I've been gone with the plane. Only 3 of them were planned more than 2 weeks in advance. 2 of them were decided the week of. Some the day of.
Just having my plane fueled, ready to fly at a moment notice, brings me a sense of freedom, even if I haven’t flown in a month. If I rented or was in a partnership, I would probably put a pencil to every flight, seeing if it was worth the cost. Being a sole owner, I know the plane needs to be flown weekly, so I keep up my proficiency, figuring I’m saving money by flying versus letting it sit. When I start flying less than 125 hours a year, time to sell the plane.
I don't see scheduling in a partnership typically being the problem. But for me, when someone tears the seat or spills coffee on the floor, those kinds of things bug me. I take care of my "things" better than most people and it drives me crazy to when people don't respect what I have worked for. Even though it's more affordable, the partnership way is not for me.
and I give back change too!
Six-ish months into a partnership and I’d agree with that. Inevitably someone doesn’t top off after a flight, doesn’t leave it they way they found it, the databases aren’t updated on-time, etc.
This partnership meets my needs for now but I foresee growing out of it sooner rather than later. I may consider another, but it would have to be the right group.
I did it often. Wake up, look out the window and say I wanna go fly today. Sometimes I’d say to my wife “ya wanna fly somewhere for lunch.” Sometimes I just felt like flying and would go bouncing around at a few airports. Find one with a good crosswind and do that just for fun. If it was gooey out, go shoot some Approaches just for fun. When I was renter sometimes that would work, but not often. There was a time it would but a handful of years ago it became just about impossible. All the places that rented had got very busy with students. Had to schedule ahead of time. Then something else would come up we’d rather do that day. I like the freedom to be impulsive.
Assuming I could comfortably afford sole ownership, the only two reasons I’d switch to a partnership would be either (a) I wasn’t flying enough to justify sole ownership and could better utilize those funds for another purpose, or (b) going to a partnership would allow me to fly something more capable and/or suitable for my intended mission that I couldn’t afford alone and my current AC wasn’t capable of or ideal for.
I suppose another prong of (a) could be that I was flying seldom enough that I was worried about MX due to infrequent use.
I’ve been in both a large “club” partnership (5-6 members) and a small one (2 of us). It’s pretty much a linear relationship between cost vs aircraft availability. The large partnerships you just have to get some rules regarding scheduling etc. It’s great to have more people to split the costs, but I’m honestly willing to pay more for more availability and less people to deal with.
Financially, it would have made sense for me to join a partnership 19 years ago instead of buying my Piper PA-28-161. Emotionally, sharing the plane with a partner now would feel like renting out a room in my house.
It might have been easier if I'd been in partnerships from the start, but as I mentioned earlier, it's also about personalities — I like people in moderation, but being somewhere like Airventure with hundreds of thousands of other people would be my idea of a nightmare I can't wake up from. If you're the kind of person who gets fired up by being around lots of other people instead of reverting to survival mode, then probably the social aspect of a partnership would work for you.
IOW, partnerships would work for Oscar, but not Felix (The Odd Couple)
Partnership is definitely not for me. I never know when I’m gunna get a break in my schedule so it’s awesome to have that flexibility! I also really like knowing exactly how the plane has been treated and flown! When I was renting I would look to see who had flown the plane since I had last. I did a lot of 30 - 45 min preflight inspections depending on who’s name was on the logs. Several times I found stuff that kept me from flying. After renting trainers for a few years, It’s totally worth it to me to stay a single owner!
Tim, does that mean the total fixed annual costs for your plane is a multiple of 12k, ie 24k, 36k, 48k based on number of partners? I do have a partner I suppose, my wife. Total fixed cost around 5.5k/yr, Piper Archer. You all could have something significantly higher on the food chain.
The partnership would work for Oscar, but I'm not so sure Oscar would work for the other partners.
In some locations $5.5k wouldn't even cover a year of hangar rent. On a newer plane, not brand new, newer, the insurance could also easily top that; higher hull value and $1 million or $2 million smooth liability.
Some locations have property/use tax.
Toss in database updates, and for a Cirrus reserves for thr chute and line cutters.
So yes, it can be $20k or more.
Add that you split not only the annual fixed costs, but also the capital acquisition cost. That's why some people decide that a partnership/co-ownership is worth it.
It's not for everyone though.
Our fixed costs total 18k a year. Three of us, so I pay 6k. Saving 12k a year.
This is chute reserve, insurance, hangar, database, annual inspection... Basically all fixed costs regardless if we fly or not.
The insurance is the smallest portion of that, and from what the broker said when I evaluated going it alone a few years ago goes down only a couple hundred bucks to only insure me.
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For any decent-sized city (1m+), that's true.
I've been happy with my plane outside, right in the core of Ottawa, for less than US $1k/year including club membership and electrical plugin. A good set of covers and a Tanis heater get me through the winter.
Even if I had partners who could share the US $6–8k/year cost of hangars near a big city, I'd have to drive much further out of the city to find them, and if the airport weren't just a 20 minute drive (or 45 minute bike ride) away, I wouldn't slip away from my desk for a few hours to go flying nearly as often.
There are lots of choices and trade-offs, with or without partners.
Ok, I see how your numbers add up. Was just curious.
I think you should convert each aircraft to a number for fun/year, and pick the higher number. For me, it would end up being as simple as $/hr and maximizing hrs/year, but that's because I'd probably rather fly the 182 than the Cirrus, and I don't have an unlimited budget. If you have more fun/hr with the Cirrus, then your math will be different than mine. In the end, we all lose the $, and all we have are the memories of fun. (More or less.)
That's one reason I never "upgraded" from my Piper PA-28-161. If you'd asked me after I bought it in 2002, I would have been certain I'd have been in something bigger and faster in 10 years, if not 5.
But with (max) 124 KTAS cruise @ 8 gph LOP-WOT, 665 lb useful load left after full fuel, and 6 hours to empty tanks, it's done everything I've needed, including family trips before my kids grew up and moved out. Why mess with perfection?
I'm at pretty much 5k on the dot for the yearly fixed costs:
Hangar 40ft T, full concrete floor, electricity, electric bi-fold door $2220
Insurance $55k hull, HP/retract $1300
Annual without squawks $800
Database updates $700
No yearly property/use tax.
I see what some of the rest of you are paying, and if I keep flying after I retire, I can't really see retiring anywhere else with the insane prices you pay.
Wow thats a great price! I assume thats owner assisted?
That's them pulling apart everything that needs to be taken off, gear swing, compression check, whatever is in the mx manual, or whatever they are using.
Any chance you can send me some info? I'm not that far from you and I'm paying $1800 for a no squawk 182 fixed gear
Didn't read through all 60 some odd replies, so this may have been already said.... but for me it comes down to fun cost per hour factor, that is are you getting enough out of the plane that justifies the ownership.