Solo own a 182 vs. 1/4 Partnership in a Cirrus?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by SoCal 182 Driver, Jul 17, 2021.

  1. SoCal 182 Driver

    SoCal 182 Driver Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I have a 1967 C182. In today's market, it's probably worth in the $90-100k range.

    I was approached today about possibly becoming a 1/4 partner in a Cirrus SR-22. Between selling my plane and my hangar, I could easily cover the cost of the partnership share.

    I'm interested in hearing comments from those who have gone from sole ownership into a partnership. Did it work out? What are the landmines to avoid? Any other comments appreciated, too.

    Thanks!
     
  2. ktup-flyer

    ktup-flyer En-Route

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    I don’t think I could go into a partnership after sole ownership, but that varies person to person. It might (nobody ever knows) be a good time to sell, but what if the partnership doesn’t work out, and then you can’t sell your share and get back where you are now without taking a massive hit? I’d make a list of pros and cons and weigh your options and go from there. You know your situation better than any of us.
     
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  3. AKBill

    AKBill En-Route

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    What is your mission? How will you schedule your flights? What are the terms and conditions of the partnership? Personally I like ownership, come and go as I please.
     
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  4. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    I own so I don't have to fight with other people on usage. I've only not used the plane on 3 or 4 weekends out of the last 12 or 14 and they have all been out of town trips.
     
  5. Southpaw

    Southpaw Pre-takeoff checklist

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    After several co owner ships with farm machinery , I definitely like sole ownership of any piece of equipment.
    But then I'm old and opinionated.
    I like being able to use it when I want with out having to fix it first.
     
  6. DoubleD

    DoubleD Pre-takeoff checklist

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    How often will you fly, and how flexible are you? Many sole ownerships turn out to be very expensive per hour and the aircraft isn't flown enough to stay healthy. I have been in 3 and 4-way partnerships for over 20 years and they've all worked well and the partners become friends and flying buddies. I generally fly about 60 hours/year. Not all partnerships are created equal. Look at the written partnership agreement closely, evaluate the potential partners' compatibility, and of course consider your own needs.
     
  7. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    how well do u know these people? how much do you fly now and plan to fly the cirrus? sole ownership is glorious but so is 1/4 of the bills. tough call, but without knowing all the juicy details, and despite it being a high wing, I'd take the sole 182 over 1/4th in a cirrus.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2021
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  8. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 Final Approach

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    If I had a 182 sole-owned, I'd hold on to it until they had to rip it from me, to quote ol' Charlton: form my cold dead haaaaaands! :D Especially in this nutso cheap loan market.
     
  9. AA5Bman

    AA5Bman Line Up and Wait

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    The only way I’d have a plane in a partnership is if I also owned one straight up.

    ...I’d actually really like to do this, in fact. Buy something expensive and fast in partnership as a backup/contrast to my old work truck Cessna.
     
  10. donjohnston

    donjohnston Cleared for Takeoff

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    Too many unknowns. Such as:
    1) How often do you fly?
    2) Distance, duration, # of passengers?
    3) I'm guessing this partnership is pre-existing. So how often has the plane flew for the past 12 months?
    4) How well do you know the people in the partnership?
     
  11. Todd82

    Todd82 Line Up and Wait

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    I'm not Cessna fan.

    I think the 182 is one of the most overrated airplanes out there.

    I'd solo own a clapped out 150 before partnership in anything.

    All my own opinions of course.
     
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  12. David Megginson

    David Megginson Pattern Altitude

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    I considered selling my Piper PA-28-161 and buying a share in an SR-22-GTS about 15 years ago. I went up for a 30 minute flight with a Cirrus sales pilot. We were in busy VFR airspace, but he kept trying to get me heads-down to admire the glass, and I had to tune him out to keep my eyes outside the plane and scan for traffic. About 15 minutes in, I realised I wasn't having fun, and wished I were in my 160 hp Piper with its simple steam gauges instead.

    When we returned to the airport, he tried to demonstrated some ridiculous feature that drew windows in the sky for me to fly through on approach. I finally lost it (in a quiet, polite Canadian way) and asked "Is it OK if we turn that off and I just land the plane?" :-/

    Needless to say, I declined to buy in, and still own my Piper :blueplane:
     
  13. Joe_B1

    Joe_B1 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    There is nothing like owning your own plane. Freedom!
     
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  14. Polarisguy

    Polarisguy Pre-takeoff checklist

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    There are some blanks that should be filled in. First, previously is what are your flight profiles? Second and more importantly is, do you own the 182 outright or is there a note outstanding. Answer those questions and the answer becomes clearer


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  15. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Pattern Altitude

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    I like having our own airplane and taking it wherever I want whenever.

    Monday I fly to San Diego and am not sure exactly when I get back. Maybe Friday?

    If I had a partner or three, this would not work.

    Your situation may be entirely different.
     
  16. Jumpmaster

    Jumpmaster Line Up and Wait

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    I find the older I get, the less accommodating I become. Consequently, shares in an LLC or in a partnership (which if you are using the legal term “partnership” would be a bad legal move compared to an LLC - yes there are plenty of threads on this topic that point out the pros and cons of each and the legal differences) would be something I just couldn’t handle. When I want to fly, I go to the hangar and kick the tires and light the fire. I don’t have to consult a schedule nor do I have to participate in seemly endless drone calls about the asset, it’s maintenance and upgrades, and who left it half empty or didn’t clean it. I am sure that some of these arrangements work out fantastic, and if I were 20 years younger, I would consider it, especially in a plane I really wanted to fly like a warbird or something similar. But an everyday plane, nah not me.
     
  17. tspear

    tspear En-Route

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    I went from sole owner of a SR20, then an Aerostar, to a three-way partnership in an SR22.

    The partnership works great, we all get along, no big schedule issues, the plane gets used more, and my costs are much lower.

    My hours range from 50hrs one year to 100hours the following. I might hit 125 this year.

    Tim

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  18. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    If I'm ever lucky enough to own one you'd have to rip it from my cold dead hands!!

    To the OP: I've never owned but I really hate renting.. the dry lease arrangement I had was near perfect (SR22TN). It felt like my own, there were no scheduling issues and the plane flew often. But.. if I already own something there's no way I'd sell that just to get into a partnership..
     
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  19. Paul V

    Paul V Pre-Flight

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    Even though I think the Cirrus is a great airplane and the 182 is a terrible airplane, sole ownership is definitely the preferred route.

    For me the whole point of owning is to have the freedom to be able to fly anytime without having to schedule time on an aircraft, and to be able to take an aircraft on trips for an extended duration. All of that is much more difficult to do in a partnership.

    A partnership gives you a lot of the drawbacks of ownership without the most important benefits.
     
  20. wheaties

    wheaties Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I'm in a club which is one step up from renting. I've had to cancel numerous trips because of scheduling, maintenance and squawks. There was even an entire summer i couldn't fly because I could not get the plane to start with a bad battery. I like my club but sole ownership is the way for me.
     
  21. simie1

    simie1 Filing Flight Plan

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    I owned a 172 solo, now in a 182 w a partner for 14 yrs. He doesn’t fly anymore and is looking to get out, so it’s been just me flying with someone else to help pay for annuals. When he did fly scheduling conflicts were extremely rare, and we were both pretty active. I’m torn about buying his half - I like the thought of it being “all mine”, BUT quickly approaching TBO and really need some panel upgrades - GPS at a minimum as ours isn’t supported anymore. Big financial hit to go alone. Not sure how many planes my dad has owned over the years (20+), almost all in partnerships. He’s a fan.
     
  22. tspear

    tspear En-Route

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    I am curious, for those that are solo owners, how often do you actually take the plane on an impulse and go somewhere?

    I know that used to be a big reason for me , but I found due to life going on otherwise, this actually happened only a few times a year.

    To save roughly 12k a year in fixed costs (hangar, insurance, annual inspection...) I think it is worth it. Plus in my case, my partners are engineers, mechanically minded and do all the owner permitted MX which saves even for money (I am responsible for the accounting....)

    Tim

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  23. David Megginson

    David Megginson Pattern Altitude

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    I don't think there's a right answer—people's personalities and needs are very different. Some people are uncomfortable in group activities (like collective ownership and decision-making), so adding more of it to their lives would kill a lot of the joy of flying. Other people draw energy from being with other people, so adding more of it would enhance the joy of flying. In many cases, I doubt it comes down to a $ and ¢ decision.
     
  24. wayne

    wayne Pattern Altitude

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    I’ve never been a sole owner of a plane, and the current plane is the first I’ve owned a part of one. Early on were flight clubs. Then “non-equity partnerships”, more of a lease than renting, with small groups of 3 or 4 with one person being the owner.

    Scheduling conflicts were/are rare. These were all traveling planes. One of them was a SR22. In 4.5 years we only had two scheduling conflicts, with 4 pilots flying it. We all worked, so no retirees. Someone usually wasn’t flying much, either traveling for work, or health, but usually 3 of us flew at least 80 hrs each year. That was with an open calendar, i.e. not reserved weeks.

    That doesn’t work for everyone. If you fly like EdFred has recently this doesn’t work for you. The more often you fly the fewer co-owners you want, until you get to zero (just yourself).

    Co-ownership reduces your capital needs to buy and reduces the fixed costs. If you like an older less expensive plane and live in a more rural area that may not be needed. In metro areas hangars often exceed $500/month. Owning a M20J where hangar rents are $150/month is a much less expensive option than a SR22 G5 in a metro area with $600/month hangar rent.
     
  25. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    mooney for the win!!!!!!!!! if it hasn't been said before on PoA, BEST BANG FOR THE BUCK!!!!
     
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  26. Johnbo

    Johnbo Pre-takeoff checklist

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    For me flying is about freedom. If I only had one plane I would not be able to handle a partnership, especially one with that many members. I don’t want to ask permission to fly my plane or help my A&P, or schedule around three other people and the weather. Freedom is flying your own plane on your own schedule.
     
  27. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route

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    For me it’s not really about impulse, but rather ultimate flexibility. I can adjust my plans at a whim. Don’t like the weather? Not feeling great? Need some food first or run an errand or two on the way to the airport? Work is busy? Need to do an additional honey-do? Kids or wife are late? I don’t need to worry about yet another aspect of planning complications (rental, next partner, etc.).

    I’m a math guy. Owning for me is not numbers related, cuz I can’t justify it financially.

    <edit: I can sleep in a little bit if I want to get to the plane a little later.>
     
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  28. Torque beast

    Torque beast Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I do all the time. With my job there are several times decisions to go somewhere are last minute which is why I bought my own plane. If everything was planned out in advance like buying an airline ticket and weather wasn’t an issue a partnership (with the right peeps) would be fine but I want the freedom to go where and when I want without asking permission. Don’t want to do upgrades I don’t deem necessary but are forced into because the rest of the group wants it. So my vote is sole ownership unless you find a partner that just doesn’t fly much at all


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  29. tspear

    tspear En-Route

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    A counter points to those above.
    My partners and I reserve the plane on a shared calendar, first come first serve. When booking weekends or long trips (e.g. I took it for all of May to fly from Boston to Utah and back), add a day or two for weather and mark it tentative. If back early or let text the the others. So far in three years this has worked very well, no real schedule problems.

    In terms of not paying for upgrades, I look at what I save annually compared to owning my own plane, and I am still ahead.

    It all comes down to your mission, and your partner's mission(s).

    Tim

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  30. DesertNomad

    DesertNomad Pattern Altitude

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    I prefer solo ownership. Last year with about 24 hours notice, I decided to fly from Nevada to Michigan for three weeks. Doubtful you can do that in a partnership.
     
  31. Paul V

    Paul V Pre-Flight

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    My situation is similar to others’ posted above. For me it’s all about the flexibility. I use my aircraft for a mix of business and personal use and in the case of the business flights, I usually don’t know I need to go somewhere until the day before or day of and usually have to be out for a few days, typically unknown at the time of the start of the trip. If I had a concrete schedule mapped out then the airlines would work just fine.

    For personal trips, I’ll usually take the aircraft out for half a week to 1+ weeks at a time with a somewhat dynamic schedule.
     
  32. ChemGuy

    ChemGuy Cleared for Takeoff

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    I like partnerships, if they are good partnerships, to keep costs low. The one I was in (4 way) we each got 1 week a month as "ours". If we wanted to use it on another week we just had to ask the partner who had it that week. 99% of the time you could take it. In several years there were only a handful of times I would have liked to use the plane and it was spoken for. I did keep up with the local FBO/rental place so I could rent if needed to fly.
     
  33. Daleandee

    Daleandee Cleared for Takeoff

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    As they say ... "a bird in the hand ... "
     
  34. donjohnston

    donjohnston Cleared for Takeoff

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    Wanna bet? It all depends on the partnership. I knew a guy in a three person partnership and the other two hardly ever flew. So for my friend, it was basically like he was the sole owner.
     
  35. tspear

    tspear En-Route

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    I have taken the plane for two weeks with 12 hours notice to my partners (fall time frame in this case). All three of us have taken the plane for a weekend, deciding to go Thursday lunch, and even leaving Thursday night.
    All depends on the partners, and how your schedules mesh. For example, I fly more in the fall/winter/spring, my two partners fly more in the summer.
    For example, I took the plane for one month in May this year. I will take it for two weeks in September, and two weeks in October. I have done two day trips this summer, so far, and will do another two or three, I normally do these on weekdays. I am also looking to schedule one more weekend in September.
    Meanwhile, my partners use it pretty much every weekend from Memorial day to Labor day; when I am usually too busy to fly much or not home.

    Tim
     
  36. OneCharlieTango

    OneCharlieTango Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Unless you need to do something the Cirrus can't do, I'd cash out the 182 while prices are crazy. Every time hangar rent or insurance came due, you'll do a little dance because it's only 25% your problem. If you find you don't like the partnership or the Cirrus, it should be relatively easy to sell out of 1/4.
     
  37. SoCal 182 Driver

    SoCal 182 Driver Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yeahbut...maintenance and insurance costs will be higher for the Cirrus, so it's not really going to be a 75% savings over what I'm paying now. We'd have to run the numbers to see what the actual savings is, and that will factor into my decision-making somewhat. I can certainly afford to keep the 182, but saving AMUs as I get closer to retirement isn't a bad thing, that's for sure!
     
  38. MountainDude

    MountainDude Pre-takeoff checklist

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    We don't have enough info to make a recommendation.
    I was a partner in a C182 for 10 years. While the other 2 flew very little and the schedule was mostly open, it was still a constant pain to work out the maintenance and upgrades. I bought my own C182 2 years ago and it has been blissful. More expensive, but worth it. As long as I can afford a sole ownership, it will stay that way.
     
  39. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf En-Route

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    I'd stick to the 182 or else you'd have to change your POA name. I mean, you don't want to be like @Checkout_my_Six and now fly a Bonanza. Lame!
     
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  40. wayne

    wayne Pattern Altitude

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    Probably more, but not as bad as the Cirrus-haters would lead you to believe. But you will be sharing expenses. There will be the chute repack every 10 years and line cutters every 6 years. Annualized that’s about $1,800, or $450 per partner with 4 owners.

    The 182 is fixed gear and so is the SR22.

    Depending upon the avionics you have in the 182, there may be more databases to update in the Cirrus. Ours has a 430W and a 430, plus we get the approach plates for the Avidyne, which is pricey. Split 4 ways that may or may not be an increase for you.

    The annual inspection may be more, but again split 4 ways. Insurance will be more as the plane is worth more, but split 4 ways it should be close one way or the other.

    Do you set money aside for maintenance and engine rebuild for your 182? Or just pay he bills as they happen? A co-ownership should bill monthly for fixed costs and hourly for mx/variable costs. That may change how you perceive the cost of flying.

    All that said, how do you use your plane and expect to continue use using it? Do you do weekend, week long, month long trips? Just an hour or so locally or $100 hamburger runs? Last minute let’s run to the beach / visit the grandkids, or well planned out trips? VFR only, light IFR or “everything except t-storms and ice”? How does your usage of a plane fit with that group?

    The group I’m in has an open calendar and my wife and I are both planners. That works great for us. I’m often reserving the plane months in advance. I can see our usage actually go up as my wife retires and the same when I retire. We will visit the kids, travel and I’ll have the time to do more Angel Flight missions. I could easily see moving to a 2 owner group or sole ownership. Or possibly switching up over time as things change.
     
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