Sodium ion batteries

This sounds familiar...
B

Post in thread 'My experience with EarthX Batteries'

www.aerolithium.com

12V 24V Lithium Experimental AIrcraft Batteries | Aerolithium

Powerful lightweight lithium batteries engineered for your experimental aircraft starting or backup battery needs. With advanced BMS technology and active balancing
www.aerolithium.com www.aerolithium.com
1/2 way down the page..
no stc needed

I'd go for a LiFePO4. I don't think sodium is mature enough for aircraft use. And they'll still burn if damaged/punctured.
 
AV8R_87 said:
I'd go for a LiFePO4. I don't think sodium is mature enough for aircraft use. And they'll still burn if damaged/punctured.
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I don't like needing a BMS (which works fine until it doesn't), and don't like the idea that a failed BMS can either shut down the battery or let it run away. The physical damage thing is real for every type of battery. Short it out (even lead-acid) and bad things happen. Fortunately, a battery isn't going to puncture itself very often.

Sodium-ion seems like a good set of compromises for our application. I've been watching the technology for a while. I'll probably try one of those batteries the next time one of my airplanes needs a battery (assuming early adopters don't have bad experiences).
 
I’ve wondered about Sodium batteries for a while, especially for less weight-sensitive applications such as home power walls tied to solar, etc. Lots more available Sodium than Lead and certainly Lithium.

Hopefully this technology advances smoothly.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I was unaware of this technology even if it’s ‘been around’.
“No mx”
“Inherently safe”

www.aerolithium.com

Sodium Aircraft Battery Experimental | Aerolithium

Aerolithium lightweight Sodium batteries for Experimental Aircraft give more starting power and reliability.
www.aerolithium.com www.aerolithium.com
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Llewtrah381 said:
I’ve wondered about Sodium batteries for a while, especially for less weight-sensitive applications such as home power walls tied to solar, etc. Lots more available Sodium than Lead and certainly Lithium.

Hopefully this technology advances smoothly.
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It's been around for awhile...but not in the USA. China has been selling electric cars using sodium batteries for a few years now. They are supposed to work better at low temperatures too.

www.electrive.com

First sodium-ion battery EVs go into serial production in China - electrive.com

The first electric cars with sodium-ion batteries have gone into production in China. The two small electric car models are being manufactured by Yiwei and
www.electrive.com www.electrive.com
 
Llewtrah381 said:
I’ve wondered about Sodium batteries for a while, especially for less weight-sensitive applications such as home power walls tied to solar, etc. Lots more available Sodium than Lead and certainly Lithium.

Hopefully this technology advances smoothly.
Click to expand...
The interesting thing is the sodium ion "equivalent" to the AGM I have in the RV-10 is about 25% of the weight - very comparable to a LiFePO4. I was expecting the sodium ion to be about twice as heavy as the LiFePo...
 
Llewtrah381 said:
Lots more available Sodium than Lead and certainly Lithium.

Hopefully this technology advances smoothly.
Click to expand...
Hopefully it does. At present, a Na-ion cell is $4.25 and a LFP cell from the same vendor is $3.

ogsolarstore.com

Sodium Ion Cylindrical Cells - Layered Oxide - Rechargeable Battery SI

Advanced Sodium Ion Battery Cells, finally a cheaper alternative to lithium-ion cells. Sodium-ion battery cells have gained attention as a promising alternative to traditional LFP cells. One significant advantage of sodium-ion cells is its better performance at low temperature compared to LFP...
ogsolarstore.com ogsolarstore.com

ogsolarstore.com

LFP 18650 Cells - 3.2V, 3C-5C Discharge Rechargeable Battery Cell

Introducing our high-quality 18650 LFP cells with a capacity of 1800mAh. These LiFePO4 (LFP) batteries come with CE and RoHS certifications, ensuring their reliability and compliance with international standards for safety and environmental protection. With a nominal capacity of at least...
ogsolarstore.com ogsolarstore.com
 
asicer said:
At present, a Na-ion cell is $4.25 and a LFP cell from the same vendor is $3.
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That’s the easy part to fix. Remember how much flat screens were compared to CRTs until the technology advanced and the cost of production went down due to volume?

Although we’re getting better at extracting Li from sources, it’ll never, ever, ever be as available as Na here on the earth’s surface.
 
Domenick said:
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We literally have oceans of sodium, as chloride. It is a waste product from desalination plants. People have been producing it for millennia via evaporation.

The paper has this statement:
“There’s no way solar evaporation alone can match future demand,” said Ngai Yin Yip, La Von Duddleson Krumb Associate Professor of Earth and Environmental Engineering at Columbia University. “And there are promising lithium-rich brines, like those in California’s Salton Sea, where this method simply can’t be used at all.”
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I find this statement curious since the Salton Sea is in a desert, where there is lots of sunlight and heat. Cresting the hills to Anza-Borrego Desert State Park, one can see the Salton Sea on the horizon.

Here's more interesting commentary from that article:
Roughly 40% of global lithium production begins with salty brines stored in large underground reservoirs beneath deserts. Nearly all of that lithium is extracted using a technique called solar evaporation, in which brine is pumped into sprawling ponds that bake under the desert sun—sometimes for up to two years—until enough water evaporates.

This approach is only feasible in dry, flat regions with vast areas of land, such as Chile’s Atacama Desert or parts of Nevada. It also consumes large volumes of water in places that can scarcely afford it.
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Evaporation does work in many places in the world, especially for sodium chloride.
Here's an example on the Great Salt Lake:
JAK_0332-Pano by Jack Silver, on Flickr

San Francisco has many evaporation pans in the south bay, and that climate is less amenable for evaporation compared to deserts.
 
I have watched a few videos on the Lithium in the Salton sea, and about a company wanting to build a plant there. The Lithium in the Salton sea is not a high enough concentration to be used commercially. The way to increase the concentration is to mix the sand which contains the Lithium with water. The water will hold all the minerals in suspension. Then through a series of processes (most of which were glossed over and I did not really follow, but seemed to include some type of centrifuge), the water is separated to where almost all the Lithium is in a single container suspended in the water, while effectively almost all the other minerals have been removed.

At this point, trying to separate the Lithium from the water is extremely energy intensive, the "cheaper" method is to use sun based evaporation to remove the water.

That is why Lithium extraction is so water and sun intensive; even though the start and final product are both "dry". The process goes through multiple stages with water, and the water often cannot be reused in the local regions if at all.

Tim
 
lilacsolutions.com

Lilac Announces Successful Completion of Lithium Pilot Operations on…

7 — Lilac Solutions, a leading provider of direct lithium extraction (DLE) technology, today announced the successful completion of its lithium extraction…
lilacsolutions.com lilacsolutions.com

I had seen this recently. But still, Na is literally several orders of magnitude more abundant.

I think there’s a place for both technologies.
 
tspear said:
I have watched a few videos on the Lithium in the Salton sea, and about a company wanting to build a plant there. The Lithium in the Salton sea is not a high enough concentration to be used commercially. The way to increase the concentration is to mix the sand which contains the Lithium with water. The water will hold all the minerals in suspension. Then through a series of processes (most of which were glossed over and I did not really follow, but seemed to include some type of centrifuge), the water is separated to where almost all the Lithium is in a single container suspended in the water, while effectively almost all the other minerals have been removed.

At this point, trying to separate the Lithium from the water is extremely energy intensive, the "cheaper" method is to use sun based evaporation to remove the water.

That is why Lithium extraction is so water and sun intensive; even though the start and final product are both "dry". The process goes through multiple stages with water, and the water often cannot be reused in the local regions if at all.

Tim
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I think we are talking past one another. Your post is factual but, as @Llewtrah381 indicates, sodium is much more abundant than lithium and is very amenable to concentration via evaporation.
 
An update: Seems Aerolithium ( aerosodium) has updated their website on Sodium AND included an LTO option.
Lots of info. Here's the basis of the LTO cells:
The Toshiba cells are what we need to look at in the here and now. They are a solid performer and are available. https://www.global.toshiba/ww/products-solutions/battery/scib/product-next/product/cell.html
I would encourage people to look at their info and decide whether a battery made of LTO cells has advantages over a LFP type.
Sodium as well. Now, TWO alternatives to the legacy LFP battery. Lithium claimed to be the lead acid replacement; Now, Sodium and LTO make the same claim to be the LFP replacement.
 
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